IDF General Sued For "Targeted Killings"

[ImaginalDisc]

I keep forgetting how small Israel is.

 

[webfusion]

dude, a terrorist standing in the Arab village of Rantis' in the West Bank would have an easy clear shot at the Ben Gurion Int'l Airport main approaches with a Stinger/Grail shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missile.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/westbank_july_1992.jpg

 

[gnome]

I sure don't know what "War Crimes" you are thinking about, gnome.
Have any specific examples? My OP refers to several court cases that are in the works to bring IDF leaders into the realm of mounting a legal defense (or ignoring them, I guess that's an option as well). http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/377678.stm

Don't get me wrong, I'm not accusing any specific war crimes. I'm making the point that the argument isn't "should we commit this war crime?". Skeptic and Wildcat were close to that position.

 

[Mycroft]

Is there anyone here that argues that refraining from war crimes hurts a nation's security? If not, then the question of which is more important can be put to rest.

The problem is every action Israel takes is described as a "human rights abuse" by her critics. Kill a terrorist? That's an "extra-judicial killing." Put up a check-point? That's a deliberate "humiliation", and a violation of their human rights. Engage in a gun battle where a civilian gets shot (not sure by who?) Well, that's "targeting" civilians, and will make an HRW report for Orwell to bring up here. At the very least, he becomes a statistic that makes his type "doubt" that so many more Palestinians dying isn't proof of something wrong with Israel.

There are methods Israel uses, and methods they do not use. There are methods Israel used to use, but which will no longer use. Personally, I'm just disgusted by the person who assumes just because something happened once, that it's policy, or who still smears Israel for policies that were changed years or even decades ago.

 

[zenith-nadir]

The Islamist Palestinian terrorists reject to halt rocket attacks on Israeli towns.

Wed Dec 28, 2005 - Associated Press

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - The Islamic Jihad militant group rejected a call Tuesday from Mahmoud Abbas to halt rocket attacks on Israeli towns, dealing a new blow to the Palestinian leader. Israel responded to the attacks with airstrikes against Gaza targets.

Abbas traveled to Gaza on Tuesday for talks with the militant groups, in part to halt growing violence along Israel's border with Gaza. Israel has put heavy pressure on Abbas to stop militants from firing rockets.

But Islamic Jihad, which has been responsible for most of the rocket fire, rejected the appeal. Spokesman Khaled Batch accused Israel of violating the cease-fire, and said attacks were the only proper response.

"I think the continuation of resistance is what's better for the Palestinian people," he said.

New rocket fire was reported in southern Israel late Tuesday, and the army quickly responded with an airstrike on a suspected launch site in northern Gaza.

For years the useful idiots around the world bought the "resistance to the occupation" B.S. Now it should be clear to anyone that "resistance" is a euphemism for terrorism.

Meanwhile the other Islamist Palestinian terrorists from Abbas own party Fatah stormed election offices in the Gaza Strip on Wednesday.

Palestinian gunmen from Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah faction take up positions in front of an election office after they stormed into it in the Khan Younis refugee camp, southern Gaza Strip December 28, 2005. REUTERS/Ibraheem Abu Mustafa

Dec 28, 2005 - Associated Press

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Dozens of masked Palestinian gunmen took over election offices in the Gaza Strip on Wednesday, demanding spots for an armed group with links to the ruling Fatah faction in the party's list of candidates for a January parliamentary election, witnesses and officials said.

In Gaza City, more than 60 gunmen stormed the main election office, exchanging fire with policemen.

Gunmen in Gaza and parts of the West Bank repeatedly take over government buildings and election offices, demanding jobs and changes to election policies ahead of a January parliamentary vote. The almost daily standoffs are a sign of Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas' inability to bring law and order to his towns and cities.

Just another typical day in unoccupied Gaza...

But wait...there's more...

Dec. 28, 2005 0:01

Tensions remained high along the northern frontier on Wednesday morning after a late night barrage of Katyusha rockets in Kiryat Shmona and Shlomi and a subsequent IDF reprisal in Lebanon.

Local residents, who were ordered into bomb shelters overnight, were allowed to leave the secured compounds on Wednesday morning.

The IAF confirmed that it carried out an air strike early Wednesday against a base belonging to the PFLP, a small Syrian-backed non-Islamist terror group in southern Lebanon. Wednesday's air raid was the second on Naameh since the Israeli troop withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000.

Four people were treated for shock after two Kiryat Shmona apartments were hit by a Katyusha rocket fired from Lebanon just before midnight late Tuesday evening.

Three Katyushas were also fired into the town of Shlomi in the western Galilee, two of their shells were found on Wednesday morning near the town;

Terror from the west...terror from the east...terror from the north....it never ends.

 

[zenith-nadir]

So what does the total failure of the Palestinian Authority to halt terrorists from firing rockets into Israel from Gaza mean?

IDF to enforce north Gaza buffer zone within hours - 13:16 28/12/2005

In the first stage of its plans to create a northern Gaza buffer zone to keep Palestinians from firing Qassam rockets against Israel, IAF aircraft Wednesday dropped leaflets urging Gazans to clear the area by 6 P.M.

At the same time, IDF commanders handed Palestinian Authority security officials maps delineating the zones prohibited for Palestinian entry. This zone will be marked out by a fence, which runs one kilometer south to the evacuated settlements.

The new restrictions will remain in power until further notice, the IDF said.

Gaza was unoccupied for the past few months but even that wasn't enough to stop the terrorism so now parts of unoccupied Gaza are going to be a buffer zone prohibited for Palestinian entry to keep Palestinians terrorists from firing Qassam rockets against Israel.

 

[webfusion]

Avi ... Kadima

Avi Dichter, one of the Israeli Defense Forces leaders (he was the head of the Shin Bet branch of the service) mentioned in the OP as being sued in the USA for "human rights crimes", has decided to join Arik Sharon's political party 'kadima'
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/663415.html
Senior Kadima officials expect that Dichter will receive one of the top five Kadima Knesset list slots, and that he would get the public security portfolio in the next government.

 

[David Swidler]

You probably should have started a new thread for that.

 

[webfusion]

ad nauseum

Hmmm, we seem to have lost Orwell again, I think he got tired of the attack/counter-attack cycle of violence! It's so hard to keep up with the goings-on during this war, and I understand why people get frustrated and cannot follow the chain of events in Real Time.

Well, anyway, here is a bit of background info on the Palestinians who were the target of Israel's Air Force raids over the past 24 hours ----

The PFLP-GC gained notoriety with a string of bloody incidents since it was formed in 1968: It has hijacked an Israeli airliner, machine-gunned another at Zurich's airport, and blown up a Tel Aviv-bound Swissair plane, killing all 47 aboard.

The PFLP-GC commander in Lebanon, Anwar Raja, denied the group was responsible for the recent launching of Katyushas into Israeli towns. The Hexbolloks has denied the act as well. Since everyone is denying doing so, it must have been some Magical Pixies... and they are really hard for Israeli warplanes to go after, you know!

-----------------------------
David Swidler offers:
"You probably should have started a new thread for that (report about Avi Dichter)."

Just mentioning it in passing, since Dichter's name came up in my OP. I don't think it will merit much comment or discussion, but if you care to frame the information in such a way that it prompts a new dialogue in it's own topic, feel free... I'm glad to see this thread is going along just fine.

 

[Skeptic]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not accusing any specific war crimes. I'm making the point that the argument isn't "should we commit this war crime?". Skeptic and Wildcat were close to that position.

Your point, as I understand it, gnome, is that israel should consider human rights violations and try to minimize them if possible as it tries to protect its citizens from terrorist attacks.

This is perfectly legitimate criticism, and I 100% agree with you, and I dare say that webfusion, z-n, and others agree as well. But--by and large, and being fully aware that israel is not perfect in that regard--israel does do just that. There are, for instance, various weapons previously used by the IDF whose use was restricted or stopped due to them hurting innocents.

The problem with Orwell & co. is that they don't really care about human rights; they simply are outraged that israel fights back. Their concern for "Palestinian human right" is merely an excuse. This can be seen in two characteristics that their "fair criticism" of israel for "human rights violation" always has:

1). First of all, they care not at all for Palestinian human rights when other Palestinians or (or for that matter anybody else apart from the israelis) violates them. Only this Christmas, armed Hamas and PLO gunmen took over Manger square, one of Christianity's holiest sites, and did not allow Christians--including Christian Palestinians--to worship there. Did Orwell care? No. Why? Because he couldn't blame israel.

2). Second, it is obvious that it is not that Orwell thinks that one method of replying to attacks is OK, or at least excusable, and another is a human rights violation. It is obvious that as long as israel fights back in any way, Orwell & co. will criticize it. Take for example the issue of firing rockets into israel from civilian areas:

If israel bombs the place, hurting civilians, Orwell & co. is outraged at that "war crime".
If israel attacks the terrorist hitting only him, and no civilians, Orwell & co. is outraged at "extra-judicial executions".
If israel warns the population to leave lest they be hurt and then bombs the terorrist's place, Orwell & co. is foaming at the mouth at israel's "ethnic cleansing".
If israel sends troops in to capture the terrorist, Orwell & co. complains that the capture scared and terrorized the neighbors, violating their human rights, and besides, the poor terorrist's human rights would be violated in an israeli prison.

...and so on and so forth, ad infinitum. Hell, if israel could have said a magic word to make the terorrist and only them disappear while making the rest of the population delirious with happiness and contentment, Orwell & co. would claim israel is using "nonconventional psychological weapons" on top of "extrajudicial executions", or something, too. Clearly, the only thing israel is allowed to do, in Orwell's view, is to grin and bear it.

Does this look like concern for human rights to you... or outrage at the idea that israel dares fight at all?

 

[Orwell]

You Orwell are what is called a useful idiot. p.s. And I fully expect you to now lash out at me eventhough what I say is the truth.

Your "truth". By the way, you, Zenith-Nadir, are what is called a useless idiot. You asked for it, you got it.

 

[Orwell]

Your point, as I understand it, gnome, is that israel should consider human rights violations and try to minimize them if possible as it tries to protect its citizens from terrorist attacks.

This is perfectly legitimate criticism, and I 100% agree with you, and I dare say that webfusion, z-n, and others agree as well. But--by and large, and being fully aware that israel is not perfect in that regard--israel does do just that. There are, for instance, various weapons previously used by the IDF whose use was restricted or stopped due to them hurting innocents.

The problem with Orwell & co. is that they don't really care about human rights; they simply are outraged that israel fights back. Their concern for "Palestinian human right" is merely an excuse. This can be seen in two characteristics that their "fair criticism" of israel for "human rights violation" always has:

1). First of all, they care not at all for Palestinian human rights when other Palestinians or (or for that matter anybody else apart from the israelis) violates them. Only this Christmas, armed Hamas and PLO gunmen took over Manger square, one of Christianity's holiest sites, and did not allow Christians--including Christian Palestinians--to worship there. Did Orwell care? No. Why? Because he couldn't blame israel.

2). Second, it is obvious that it is not that Orwell thinks that one method of replying to attacks is OK, or at least excusable, and another is a human rights violation. It is obvious that as long as israel fights back in any way, Orwell & co. will criticize it. Take for example the issue of firing rockets into israel from civilian areas:

If israel bombs the place, hurting civilians, Orwell & co. is outraged at that "war crime".
If israel attacks the terrorist hitting only him, and no civilians, Orwell & co. is outraged at "extra-judicial executions".
If israel warns the population to leave lest they be hurt and then bombs the terorrist's place, Orwell & co. is foaming at the mouth at israel's "ethnic cleansing".
If israel sends troops in to capture the terrorist, Orwell & co. complains that the capture scared and terrorized the neighbors, violating their human rights, and besides, the poor terorrist's human rights would be violated in an israeli prison.

...and so on and so forth, ad infinitum. Hell, if israel could have said a magic word to make the terorrist and only them disappear while making the rest of the population delirious with happiness and contentment, Orwell & co. would claim israel is using "nonconventional psychological weapons" on top of "extrajudicial executions", or something, too. Clearly, the only thing israel is allowed to do, in Orwell's view, is to grin and bear it.

Does this look like concern for human rights to you... or outrage at the idea that israel dares fight at all?

Lies, strawmen, male bovine manure, propaganda, partisan hackism, rubbish, fabrications. Your partisan hackism makes you incapable of debating this subject honestly. It's either that, or your reading comprehension skills are severely impaired.

 

[Orwell]

If I might throw in a few cents worth of opinion... I don't think that the saving of israeli lives must be in conflict with preventing human rights abuses.

Depending on how you define human rights abuse, of course... but for example I don't think that Israel must partake of war crimes for their own safety--to the contrary, I argue that any actual war crimes work against Israeli security by prologing the conflict.

Is there anyone here that argues that refraining from war crimes hurts a nation's security? If not, then the question of which is more important can be put to rest.

Damn right! But that's too much nuance for the "Israel-right-or-wrong" crowd. If you wanna get along with them, you gotta think more in terms of "Palestinian baaad".
As I said to Mycroft nearly a month ago:

To you (and others on this forum), it's as if politics amounts simply to reacting to bedtime stories that have cookie-cutter heroes and villains and gratifying moral endings, it's not about doing things in the world, it's about achieving catharsis. I'm not saying that's wrong. If it's what you want to make of politics, okey-dokey.

And Zenith Nadir keeps droning on and on about genocidal hatred of Israel, totally not getting the point that I am not defending Palestinian extremism and that I don't give two flying fornications for that kind of thinking.

But that doesn't mean that I have to support every stupid thing the IDF and the Israeli government does. The security of Israel does not justify massive massive human rights abuses.

 

[Skeptic]

Orwell whined:

Lies, strawmen, male bovine manure, propaganda, partisan hackism, rubbish, fabrications.



I got you good this time, didn't I?

 

[Mycroft]

Orwell whined:

Lies, strawmen, male bovine manure, propaganda, partisan hackism, rubbish, fabrications.



I got you good this time, didn't I?

It's so hard to "win" an internet debate. Reducing your opponent to incoherent babbling, in my opinion, counts.

 

[WildCat]

It's so hard to "win" an internet debate. Reducing your opponent to incoherent babbling, in my opinion, counts.

And when he puts you on "ignore", you know you've got him beaten down!

 

[webfusion]

Too much vacation time on my hands...

Ok, here ya go SKeptic, just for fun --- no need to reply, I'm making the following remarks for pure mental exercise, and they in no way impinge on the validity of your overall posting or the thrust of your remarks... I felt your posting #290 was authentic and valid, while the response to it by Orwell was so shallow and devoid of a shred of evidence to dispute your POV, I almost felt sorry for the guy.

Skep comments:
"Only this Christmas, armed Hamas and PLO gunmen took over Manger square, one of Christianity's holiest sites, and did not allow Christians--including Christian Palestinians--to worship there."

Not exactly the way it happened. The takeover preceeded the holiday by a few days, and by Christmas it had been resolved. This year, according to numerous press reorts I have seen, there were tens of thousands of Palestinians and foreign tourists in Bethlehem, more than at any time since 2000, and the festivities & prayers proceeded without interference from the IDf or the Islamic radicals. President Abbas himself visited the Church of the Nativity, I happen to know, from good sources...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051225/ap_on_re_mi_ea/christmas_world
In this particular online report, by SARAH EL DEEB, Associated Press Writer, somehow the very fact of that visit by Abbas gets overlooked! It might have been edited out to make room for the other brilliant worldwide xmas events mentioned in that cobbled-together article, so let's give her the benefit of the doubt.
http://www.bangordailynews.com/news/templates/?a=125826
This link provides an overview of Christmas's Past in Manger Square. Makes for a fascinating read, from Bangor Maine.

and one more link, an obscure article about the man who is the official custodian of the Christian Holy Places throughout the Holy Land, by decree of the Vatican : Father Pierbattista Pizzaballa

There, that should cover it for this year.
Have a great 2006 all.

 

[Orwell]

Orwell whined:

Lies, strawmen, male bovine manure, propaganda, partisan hackism, rubbish, fabrications.



I got you good this time, didn't I?

You got what? Let me get this straight... You got me by lying and distorting what I have been saying? That's how you clowns "debate", innit?

 

[Orwell]

It's so hard to "win" an internet debate. Reducing your opponent to incoherent babbling, in my opinion, counts.

There was nothing incoherent in that post. I was simply describing that pile of horse faeces posted by "Skeptic". You don't even care about representing your adversary's points of view accurately, that's why you're partisan hacks. See, if you guys had some relevant points to make, or even any interest in debating anything seriously, you wouldn't use such bare faced lies.

Anyway, since one risks becoming idiotic if one keeps debating with idiots, I'll just give a nice one finger salute to you "gentleman" and go on my way.

 

[WildCat]

Anyway, since one risks becoming idiotic if one keeps debating with idiots, I'll just give a nice one finger salute to you "gentleman" and go on my way.

Orwell has debated idiots his whole life, I'd bet.