Does the IDF target civilians?

[zenith-nadir]

Oh, more word playing! Is a police force an army? I would say no. Zenith-Nadir, unsurprisingly, says yes, 'cause right now it's convenient to say so. Whatever...

Whether you accept it or not Orwell the Palestinian Security Services is the incipient Palestinian army. It is the highest and only security authority that the Palestinians have.

At this point, judging by the quality of your posts, I can only surmise that you are here simply to troll for responses. It is no longer important to debate you.

 

[a_unique_person]

Look at Gaza a_u_p. Israel pulled out, destroyed all the settlements and Gaza is no better off today that before. There is total anarchy and chaos. The militants rule the streets. I could post story after story like Fatah gunmen storm Gaza offices or Gunfire, Fraud and a Stolen Lion: In Gaza Voting, Chaos Wins. Likewise if Israel pulled out of the West Bank there would also be anarchy and chaos.

Why?

Because the Palestinian Authority refuses to disarm and dismantle the terror organizations that they have been obligated to do since Arafats letter to Rabin in 1993. That is the key.

That is their problem, isn't it?

As to the state of Gaza, Haaretz had stories on the greenhouses being repaired and farmed by Palestinians. If all you look for is the bad news, it's all you will see.

 

[Orwell]

Whether you accept it or not Orwell the Palestinian Security Services is the incipient Palestinian army. It is the highest and only security authority that the Palestinians have.

At this point, judging by the quality of your posts, I can only surmise that you are here simply to troll for responses. It is no longer important to debate you.

I've known for a long time that it is quite pointless debating this subject with you. I've even been saying it for a while now!

 

[Orwell]

"all Palestinian armed resistance against Israel's occupation is illegal."

Totally illegal.
In fact, the Palestinians themselves made a big deal about officially renouncing the use of violence as a means to achieve their ends (an independent State, alongside and in cooperation with Israel). It all went to ◊◊◊◊.

Who cares what it is! Do you think that saying that it is "illegal" changes anything? As I said before, Palestinian militants care as much about their legal status as Israel cares about UN resolutions.

ORWELL MAINTAINS: I've given a definition of the word targeted several times now. When you shoot at a civilian, you're targeting him. When you bomb a civilian, you're targeting him, when you destroy a civilian's property, you're also targeting him.

I reject this characterization, and so does everyone else in this thread.
Orwell is the only one using this definition. That is his problem, right from the start. He misunderstood (and refuses to comprehend) that the IDF does not target civilians, The only way to define the word "target" in this discussion is in comparison to the way that the Palestinians target Israelis. All these efforts to say 'they are both guilty of a lot of crap' is useless nonsense, when the reference point is how the Palestinians target Israelis for death, as a matter of intent and planning and doctrine, and the IDF doesn't act in that manner.

That's all we are showing. Now, if you want to bring up the IDF actions since the 1967 occupation, the zionist invasion of the 1890's, the naqba of 1948, the intifada, the Lebanon war, right through to the killings this week of Palestinians trying to infiltrate over the Israel/Gaza border fence, or throwing rocks in a riot, or fishing in restricted waters and then opening fire against an IDF patrol boat making a routine inspection, I am totally convinced that is outside of the perspective and the scope of the OP. At no point has Orwell argued otherwise, despite my challenging him to do so, several times.

My answer:

First, I would never expect people like ZN, Jocko, Webfusion, Cleo, etc. to support anything I have been saying. The fact that other folks aren't posting in this thread probably just indicates how much they're sick of the argument. I mean, this has been 10 pages of essentially me posting away Israeli human rights abuses and IDF targeting of civilians, you and other calling me names, and I calling you names back... No wonder they are staying away. I should have quit a long time ago, but I just enjoy calling you a partisan hack too much.

It’s the IDF policy not to "target" civilians for death.

So far, in this entire long thread, Orwell has brought forward NO EVIDENCE that the IDF operates in a way that can be understood to mean the soldiers are given orders to kill Palestinians, for sport, for the hell of it, as a method of war or as part of any IDF doctrine, at any level. All conjecture to that direction is unprovable. (because it isn't true, I may say)
The Palestinians, on the other hand, do utilize the targeting of Israeli civilians as a method, as a doctrine, and direct orders are given to murder Israelis, at random and in their cities and towns and in their communities, and that is not conjecture, it is verifiable fact.

That is the summary of the OP in this thread from post #1.
All the rest has gone in circles and avoided this basic value.

My answer:

Why, oh why should I believe you clowns and not Human Rights watch, Amnesty International, B'Tselem, the refusenicks quoted in bunch of newspapers, etc.?

As I said before one partisan hack's "spamming" is a more reasonable person's evidence. I presented those links as evidence (well maybe not all of them, at one point I was so pissed off at the crap I've been getting that I just started posting away, but all the links detail IDF human rights abuses). But I did present a bunch of links that were relevant. You chose not to consider them as evidence because they don't fit into your definition of the word targeting, a definition, by the way, that I do not understand, since you never explained it to me. I've provided ample explanations and clarifications of what I mean by targeting. Still, you refuse to even consider my point. Since what I am saying is pretty damn simple, I can only conclude that you do not want to debate anything that falls outside of your world view. Therefore, I have to conclude that you are being dishonest, that is, that you are a partisan hack.

I have been saying, for ten pages now, that IDF soldiers have shot at civilians, killed civilians, maimed civilians, and destroyed property belonging to civilians! I have been saying that this "accidental killing of civilians during military operations argument" does not explain a large number of the events described in the links I have provided: it does not square with eyewitness accounts, casualty lists, and descriptions given by human rights organisations (which, by the way, have a lot more credibility than the IDF, the Israeli government and you guys). It's stupidly simple: intentionally shooting civilians, bombing civilians, destroying civilian property is TARGETING civilians. See? Simple. Now, I never said that this was official IDF policy, but I did advance, based on refusenick quotes, that the higher ups in the IDF don't care.

All the links I provided give ample evidence of this.

I do agree with one thing you said, Webfusion: this thread has been going on in circles. I mean, I just have to quote my past post to answer your stuff!

 

[zenith-nadir]

That is their problem, isn't it?

It's a huge problem having various factions of gunmen controling your streets. Especially when two of the three factions do not follow the Palestinian Authority's orders and are on a jihad to destroy the next door neighbor... who happens to have Apaches, Merkavas and F16s. These groups want Israel gone and a big fat Taliban-like Islamic theocracy in it's place.

The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement Hamas

The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz al-Din al Kissam and his brethren the fighters, members of Moslem Brotherhood. It goes on to reach out and become one with another chain that includes the struggle of the Palestinians and Moslem Brotherhood in the 1948 war and the Jihad operations of the Moslem Brotherhood in 1968 and after.

Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

Pretty scarey stuff heh a_u_p? Google it yourself and read it.

As to the state of Gaza, Haaretz had stories on the greenhouses being repaired and farmed by Palestinians. If all you look for is the bad news, it's all you will see.

I've been watching the greenhouses closely as they are the largest employer in Gaza.

Palestinians prepare Gaza harvest - November 28, 2005

Less than three months after the Israelis departed, Palestinians have repaired scores of greenhouses left by the settlers and planted a fall crop, and they are preparing to harvest an estimated $20 million worth of strawberries, cherry tomatoes, sweet peppers, herbs and spices.

 

[Mycroft]

I have not understated the wrongs to Israel because I have not been specifically talking about that.

That post was not addressed to you. It was a response to AUP.

I do not know how you go about measuring who did more harm to whom during this conflict and I'm not that interested. I am not interested in playing along with the typical villains and heroes version of history that is so dear to partisan hacks and nationalists.

You are not interested in learning. I got that.

I am content with saying that both sides are guilty of a lot of crap. Is that simple enough for you, or do I have to use shorter words?

You want to keep your understanding of the conflict on a simple level.

I understand that and respect it. What I don't understand is why you think everyone else should also only understand the conflict on the same simple level you feel comfortable with.

 

[Mycroft]

You're so far gone into partisan hackism that you don't even notice when you're being blatantly unfair. Another example:

You think that's unfair? Ask them.

If I went around saying "If the Israeli government was destroyed, another organization could be created" you would be probably going around calling an anti-Semite or something like that. Whether you and I like the PA or not (and let me make things clear, I don't like them much), the Palestinians elected the PA.

They were elected?

Again you show your ignorance. Arafat ran unopposed. Well, technically they found some old woman to run against him, but she was a nobody and didn’t stand a chance. Once elected, they never held another election until he died.

It’s my opinion that the worst thing Israel ever did to the Palestinian people is to recognize the PLO as their legitimate leaders. That was like recognizing Al Capone as the legitimate Mayor of Chicago, only more people were screwed with this deal.

If you follow the news today, you will get to see what a joke Palestinian elections have become, but that might require acquiring an understanding of the situation that’s more deep than you’re comfortable with.

 

[webfusion]

If you follow the news today, you will get to see what a joke Palestinian elections have become.

Orwell doesn't follow the news, today or any other day, apparently.
He depends on old links from the year 2000 and even further back to form his opinions, and then regurgitates them here as a way of showing he understands what "targeting" means!

Palestinians burning lists from the Fatah primary elections, near Hebron on Saturday. Their democratic future is going up in smoke.(AP)

 

[Orwell]

They were elected?

Again you show your ignorance. Arafat ran unopposed. Well, technically they found some old woman to run against him, but she was a nobody and didn’t stand a chance. Once elected, they never held another election until he died.

It’s my opinion that the worst thing Israel ever did to the Palestinian people is to recognize the PLO as their legitimate leaders. That was like recognizing Al Capone as the legitimate Mayor of Chicago, only more people were screwed with this deal.

If you follow the news today, you will get to see what a joke Palestinian elections have become, but that might require acquiring an understanding of the situation that’s more deep than you’re comfortable with.

You don't seem to be very up to date, Mycroft. Maybe you don't know, but Arafat died nearly a year ago. Mahmoud Abbas is now PA president, and he was elected. He won by 62.3% of the vote, while Dr. Mustafa Barghouti, a physician and independent candidate, won 19.8%. And whether you (or I like) it or not, the PA is the closest thing the Palestinians have to a government.

 

[Orwell]

You are not interested in learning. I got that.

And you are not interested in getting your head out of your bum. Learning?! What, you trying to teach me something? Well, if I ever need pointers on how to become a full-fledged partisan hack, maybe I'll ask you for some pointers.

You want to keep your understanding of the conflict on a simple level. I understand that and respect it. What I don't understand is why you think everyone else should also only understand the conflict on the same simple level you feel comfortable with.

Simple level, eh? Horse crap. To you (and others on this forum), it's as if politics amounts simply to reacting to bedtime stories that have cookie-cutter heroes and villains and gratifying moral endings, it's not about doing things in the world, it's about achieving catharsis. I'm not saying that's wrong. If it's what you want to make of politics, okey-dokey.

 

[zenith-nadir]

IDF chopper hits terrorist offices

An IDF helicopter fired a missile into the offices of a Palestinian terror organization in Gaza City overnight Saturday, Israel Radio reported. No further information was available on the attack. Earlier, air force jets struck at Kassam launch sites in three separate bombardments Saturday night.

The Israeli attack came in retaliation for Kassam rocket attacks over the weekend which targeted the western Negev.

A total of four Kassam rockets were fired at the western Negev. On Saturday night one rocket landed in the hothouses of Moshav Netiv Ha'asara. Earlier, two rockets landed in fields belonging to Kibbutz Karmia south of Ashkelon while, on Friday, a rocket landed in an open field of Kibbutz Nir Yitzhak.

Didn't Israel pull out of Gaza? Isn't firing Qassam rockets at Israel and act of war?

Since the IDF pullout from the Gaza Strip, security officials have become concerned by increasing violence in the area.

During that period, according to the army, security forces have intercepted and blown up 22 bombs placed by Palestinians for detonation near IDF units patrolling the Gaza security fence. There have been 170 mortar shell and Kassam rockets fired at the western Negev and eight confrontations with terrorists in addition to 75 Palestinian sniper attacks on troops.

Pulling out of Gaza didn't stop the shelling and terror... go figure. What's going on at the newly-reopened Gaza-Egypt border run by the Palestinians?

Israel threatens to close PA border

Israel on Saturday reiterated threats made last week to block Palestinians from access to the Karni and Erez crossings if the flow of terrorists into Gaza continues. The threat came as the Palestinian Authority ordered an urgent investigation into several border officials at the Gaza-Egypt crossing.

Israel was outraged that terrorists, including the brother of Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar, were allowed to enter Gaza, and threatened to declare its other borders with Gaza international crossings, a move that would sever a customs deal between Israel and the Palestinians.

The Palestinians can make the following choice, according to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's spokesman Ra'anan Gissin: "Do they want the free passage of terrorists, or the free passage of goods and merchandise?"

Dahlan ordered an inquiry into border officials he accused of violating orders and the US-brokered agreement, officials said.

Dahlan's visit to the border and the inquiry came after concerns European monitors had about the return to Gaza of at least 10 terrorists, said Jose De La Guardia, the spokesman of the European monitoring contingent.

Barely open a few weeks and already the Palestinian border officials are in hot water with the European monitoring contingent, Israel and the Palestinians' own Dahlan.

So what's going on in the West Bank?

In the southern West Bank village of Halhoul, Fatah gunmen claiming election fraud stormed a polling station on Saturday and wrecked the vote, firing into the air and destroying ballot papers and ballot boxes and calling for a repeat of the vote. REUTERS/Nayef Hashlamoun

Palestinians shout slogans during a demonstration against the result of the Fatah party's primaries in the West Bank town of Hebron December 3, 2005. REUTERS/Nayef Hashlamoun

A Palestinian protester throws election result lists for the Fatah Party primary from the roof of the election headquarters. (AP Photo/Nasser Shiyoukhi)

Seems like the islamist Fatah militants don't like democracy too much.

 

[Mycroft]

You don't seem to be very up to date, Mycroft. Maybe you don't know, but Arafat died nearly a year ago. Mahmoud Abbas is now PA president, and he was elected. He won by 62.3% of the vote, while Dr. Mustafa Barghouti, a physician and independent candidate, won 19.8%. And whether you (or I like) it or not, the PA is the closest thing the Palestinians have to a government.

That's funny. You claim I'm out of date, then you have to check Wikipedia.

 

[a_unique_person]

Orwell doesn't follow the news, today or any other day, apparently.
He depends on old links from the year 2000 and even further back to form his opinions, and then regurgitates them here as a way of showing he understands what "targeting" means!

Palestinians burning lists from the Fatah primary elections, near Hebron on Saturday. Their democratic future is going up in smoke.(AP)

He was not presenting evidence for what is happening in the elections, but if there is evidence of the IDF targetting civilians.

 

[webfusion]

a_u_p, it so happens that the Nattering Nabob of Negativism was not presenting evidence of IDF targeting, despite being asked to do so. He presented evidence of the IDF operating as a military organization, fighting Islamic terror (Gaza and the West Bank and even Lebanon) and attempting to crush an ongoing series of suicide bombers which were/are prevalent over the years cited, and in the process, having to go into hostile civilian areas (down dangerous alleyways and into ambushes and facing mobs rioting, etc...)
He somehow managed to overlook the reports of MACHSOM-WATCH, which describe Human Rights abuses by the IDF -- abuses which are appalling in my opinion. but also fail to support claims of targeting (http://www.machsomwatch.org/docs/monthlyReports/June2004Eng.asp?link=summaries&lang=eng)

During his ongoing efforts to bolster his side of the argument, he tried to illustrate how the Palestinians are moving away from supporting terrorism as a means to their end (the end being the destruction of Israel, not the end of the 1967 occupation, if I'm not mistaken). He says that the democracy of the Palestinians is at such an advanced stage, that Israel should have few concerns about the continuation of Islamic terror, since the PA (Abbas) is the shining White Knight who will bring peace and calm to his own constituents and allow Israel to withdraw its forces back to barracks for a much-need rest.

============================
And meanwhile, Palestinian sources said the Israeli Air Force targeted and destroyed an abandoned metal workshop and a charity run by Islamic Jihad.

Heavens to Betsy, that sure sounds like the IDF is targeting civilians! Someone had better go wake up Orwell, this early Sunday morning, so he can add this to his list...

 

[zenith-nadir]

a_u_p, it so happens that the Nattering Nabob of Negativism was not presenting evidence of IDF targeting, despite being asked to do so. He presented evidence of the IDF operating as a military organization, fighting Islamic terror (Gaza and the West Bank and even Lebanon) and attempting to crush an ongoing series of suicide bombers which were/are prevalent over the years cited, and in the process, having to go into hostile civilian areas (down dangerous alleyways and into ambushes and facing mobs rioting, etc...)

To illustrate how dangerous the situation is on-the-ground:

Palestinian police shoot driver for not stopping for inspection - 15:44 04/12/2005

RAMALLAH - Police in the West Bank town of Ramallah opened fire Sunday on a driver who refused to stop to show his documents, touching off an impromptu protest by dozens of outraged residents, witnesses said.

Doctors at the Ramallah hospital said the 23-year-old driver, Anas al-Agroudi, was shot in the chest and in serious condition.

Protesters who took to the streets after the shooting burned tires and threw stones at police, who responded by firing in the air.

So if I use Orwell's criteria the Palestinian police "targeted" a Palestinian civilian.

 

[webfusion]

Please nooooo....

Z-N, for the sake of our sanity, don't use Orwells' criteria!!!
That's what got us started on this thread in the first place, and look where it went.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Z-N, for the sake of our sanity, don't use Orwells' criteria!!! That's what got us started on this thread in the first place, and look where it went.

Actually I've enjoyed debating Orwell, he's not stupid or heartless...just misguided IMHO. As I said pages ago I've never met an Israeli that likes the occupation, even my goofy mother, an orthodox jew & Likudnik, wants it to end. The problem is there is no one to end it with. For a decade only Arafat made the decisions and he played both sides of the fence. Then Abbas took over and so far he's been steamrolled by the very same terror organizations Arafat payed off with money, turf and weapons, including his very own party's Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades.

Caught in between this boiling cauldron of jihadists and militants are the noncombatant Palestinians and Israel. It could all be over tomorrow if the PA disarmed and dismantled the terror groups - who ironically threaten the PA as much as anyone.

 

[webfusion]

"...even my goofy mother, an orthodox jew & Likudnik, wants (the occupation) to end."

She'll probably never live to see the day (may she live to 120). For that matter, neither you nor I will live to see the day. Maybe our kid's children?

You know, I have often wondered, and this thread hasn't touched upon it at all ---
what would happen if the IDF actually began targeting Palestinians as a matter of operational doctrine? Just went out there and started destroying entire villages, and put down the terrorists using all the means available without mercy for any civilians in the way. (see: Syria HAMA)
Would Israel be better or worse off?

 

[Orwell]

That's funny. You claim I'm out of date, then you have to check Wikipedia.

Ooo, are you reproaching me for checking sources for numbers? Well, you know, unlike you, I don't pretend to know everything, so that's why I get info from Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, B'Tselem, and even Wikipedia.

 

[Orwell]

a_u_p, it so happens that the Nattering Nabob of Negativism was not presenting evidence of IDF targeting, despite being asked to do so. He presented evidence of the IDF operating as a military organization, fighting Islamic terror (Gaza and the West Bank and even Lebanon) and attempting to crush an ongoing series of suicide bombers which were/are prevalent over the years cited, and in the process, having to go into hostile civilian areas (down dangerous alleyways and into ambushes and facing mobs rioting, etc...)
He somehow managed to overlook the reports of MACHSOM-WATCH, which describe Human Rights abuses by the IDF -- abuses which are appalling in my opinion. but also fail to support claims of targeting (http://www.machsomwatch.org/docs/monthlyReports/June2004Eng.asp?link=summaries&lang=eng)

Why, oh why should I believe you clowns and not Human Rights watch, Amnesty International, B'Tselem, the refusenicks quoted in bunch of newspapers, etc.?

And, uhhh, MachsomWatch watches checkpoints. Just checkpoints. And up until you mentioned them, i didn't even know they existed.

Machsom Watch is open exclusively to women. Our, quiet but assertive, presence at checkpoints is a direct challenge to the dominant militaristic discourse that prevails in Israeli society. It demands accountability on the part of the security forces towards the civilian estate, something hitherto almost unheard of.

http://www.machsomwatch.org/eng/aboutUsEng.asp?link=aboutUsEng&lang=eng
How many of the posts on Israeli human rights abuses I have linked were checkpoint related? And how many shekels do you wanna bet that their presence at checkpoints contributes to keep the IDF soldiers well behaved? Man, you should put one of these ladies behind every IDf officer!

During his ongoing efforts to bolster his side of the argument, he tried to illustrate how the Palestinians are moving away from supporting terrorism as a means to their end (the end being the destruction of Israel, not the end of the 1967 occupation, if I'm not mistaken). He says that the democracy of the Palestinians is at such an advanced stage, that Israel should have few concerns about the continuation of Islamic terror, since the PA (Abbas) is the shining White Knight who will bring peace and calm to his own constituents and allow Israel to withdraw its forces back to barracks for a much-need rest.

Boy, what an amazingly active imagination you have! Where did I say these things? That's right: nowhere. I said that the PA is the closest thing the palestinians have to a government and that the PA president was elected, both trivially true statements. I don't even like the current PA leadership much: their humans rights record is pretty poor!

You have to distinguish between the institution and the persons who are presently running it. I can't stand Sharon, the Likoud and most of the Israeli right wing, but that doesn't mean that I despise the Israeli government as an institution. I think that destroying or undermining the PA is counterproductive because you can't have peace without having some kind of working Palestinian government in place. Do you understand?