Does the IDF target civilians?

[Orwell]

Just how many of them are here backing you up? Even they understand the difference between incidental civilian casualties and civilians being targeted for death. Even they understand that spamming a thread with 50 or more links of dubious relevence and then ducking away from any challenge is not the way to argue an issue.

You've discovered the 4-year-old method of argument, just call the other guy a poopy-head and plug your ears and say it over and over again if he tries to talk to you.

First, I would never expect people like ZN, Jocko, Webfusion, Cleo, etc. to support anything I have been saying. The fact that other folks aren't posting in this thread probably just indicates how much they're sick of the argument. I mean, this has been 10 pages of essentially me posting away Israeli human rights abuses and IDF targeting of civilians, you and other calling me names, and I calling you names back... No wonder they are staying away. I should have quit a long time ago, but I just enjoy calling you a partisan hack too much.

As I said before one partisan hack's "spamming" is a more reasonable person's evidence. I presented those links as evidence (well maybe not all of them, at one point I was so pissed off at the crap I've been getting that I just started posting away, but all the links detail IDF human rights abuses). But I did present a bunch of links that were relevant. You chose not to consider them as evidence because they don't fit into your definition of the word targeting, a definition, by the way, that I do not understand, since you never explained it to me. I've provided ample explanations and clarifications of what I mean by targeting. Still, you refuse to even consider my point. Since what I am saying is pretty damn simple, I can only conclude that you do not want to debate anything that falls outside of your world view. Therefore, I have to conclude that you are being dishonest, that is, that you are a partisan hack.

But since you have an history of spouting spurious arguments and of bad faith debating, I ma not terribly surprised that you behaved in such a way.

 

[WildCat]

I presented those links as evidence. You chose not to consider them as evidence because they don't fit into your definition of the word targeting. I've provided ample explanations and clarifications of what I mean by targeting.

You have a rather unique definition of "targeting". Your last "clarification" directly refuted your definition. The mind boggles...

I fully expect you to resort to your usual name-calling, stick-your-fingers-in-your-ears-while-humming "I can't hear you" mode. And, oh yeah, declare that this is just a stupid internet forum beneath the dignity of a genius such as yourself.

 

[Orwell]

The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them. For quite six years the English admirers of Hitler contrived not to learn of the existence of Dachau and Buchenwald. And those who are loudest in denouncing the German concentration camps are often quite unaware, or only very dimly aware, that there are also concentration camps in Russia. Huge events like the Ukraine famine of 1933, involving the deaths of millions of people, have actually escaped the attention of the majority of English russophiles. Many English people have heard almost nothing about the extermination of German and Polish Jews during the present war. Their own antisemitism has caused this vast crime to bounce off their consciousness. In nationalist thought there are facts which are both true and untrue, known and unknown. A known fact may be so unbearable that it is habitually pushed aside and not allowed to enter into logical processes, or on the other hand it may enter into every calculation and yet never be admitted as a fact, even in one's own mind.

http://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/nationalism/english/e_nat

 

[Orwell]

You have a rather unique definition of "targeting". Your last "clarification" directly refuted your definition. The mind boggles...

I fully expect you to resort to your usual name-calling, stick-your-fingers-in-your-ears-while-humming "I can't hear you" mode. And, oh yeah, declare that this is just a stupid internet forum beneath the dignity of a genius such as yourself.

What? You out of your mind? It's like I'm speaking Greek or something! Do you understand english at all?

I have been saying, for ten pages now, that IDF soldiers have shot at civilians, killed civilians, maimed civilians, and destroyed property belonging to civilians! I have been saying that this "accidental killing of civilians during military operations argument" does not explain a large number of the events described in the links I have provided: it does not square with eyewitness accounts, casualty lists, and descriptions given by human rights organisations (which, by the way, have a lot more credibility than the IDF, the Israeli government and you guys). It's stupidly simple: intentionally shooting civilians, bombing civilians, destroying civilian property is TARGETING civilians. See? Simple. Now, I never said that this was official IDF policy, but I did advance, based on refusenick quotes, that the higher ups in the IDF don't care.

All the links I provided give ample evidence of this.

And I'm so out of here. Do your worse.

 

[webfusion]

10 pages and demon decides to join the fray ---

Hmmm, missing out the crucial "C" as ever -that would be the almost forty years of illegal occupation, theft and brutal oppression causing Palestinian violence.

Occupation causing violence?
That's a blatant lie.

The area called Palestine included the territories of present day Israel and Jordan. Under Lausanne agreement of 1923 Turkey transferred all claims to Palestine to mandatory power Great Britain. However, during 1922 Britain had already allocated nearly 80% of Palestine to the Hashemite Bedouin nomadic tribe camped at the time in Transjordan.

For sure, without any question, there was violence against Jews dating back before this, (and soon after this, in 1929, for instance) and not just in Palestine: Islamic-inspired violence against Jews was commonplace in virtually every Arab country.

There is no cause and effect relating to the 6-Day War.
The cause and effect is related to Islamic doctrine, Islamic law, and Islamic teachings, that Jews are inferior, Jews are sons of monkeys, and Jews deserve to die.

Which is why it is a simple matter to convince Islamic civilians to become suicide bombers. It has absolutely nothing to do with any reaction to an occupation -- it has only to do with killing Jews. Targeting Jews.

It is just insane to equate that mindset to anything the IDF does to stop these Islamic maniacs from perpetrating atrocities (atrocities Israelis face that are on a par with the mass-murders in NY and DC on 9-11).

 

[webfusion]

intentionally shooting civilians, bombing civilians, destroying civilian property is targeting civilians.

No, it's not!
The IDF does not embark upon missions to go out & shoot civilians.
The IDF does not routinely, unprovoked and on any given clear day, issue orders to open artillery fire and bomb civilians.
The IDF does not send tanks and bulldozers into civilan areas without probable cause and reasonable suspicion that those areas either harbor or are used by terrorists. In many cases, the civilians' property is designated and posted and the owners notified of the impending demolition, and opportunity is given for legal appeals !!! And, besides that, to stretch the use of the term "targeted" in this discussion and in the context it is understood, to destruction of property, is BS.

Orwell, you just aren't up to this debate. You didn't start in with the right attitude and it's deteriorated over the course of the thread. Oh well.

 

[Mycroft]

I have been saying, for ten pages now, that IDF soldiers have shot at civilians, killed civilians, maimed civilians, and destroyed property belonging to civilians!

And in those ten pages on many occasions various people have looked at your evidence, commented on your evidence, and when they didn't agree it meant what you thought it meant, you got mad, called them names, and spammed some more instead of arguing your point of view.

You see, I can find thousands of eye witnesses that claim to have seen extra-terrestrials, but the funny thing is when you examine these events one at a time, you often find holes in these stories, facts that don’t add up, or explanations that are just more likely than extra-terrestrial visitations.

But there is so much evidence! Hundreds of books, dozens of organizations, so many eyewitnesses…and yet when you look at it all, piece by piece, so much of it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny, and what’s left over just isn’t conclusive. It’s easy to understand how a true believer could get frustrated and just start calling the skeptics names and spamming them with link after link of “evidence.”

The truth is nobody claims the IDF is perfect, but it’s also true that much of the crap that’s said about them just doesn’t stand up. For example, Zenith-Nadir did a very thorough fisking of several of you links, which you completely ignored. That demonstrates it’s not we who are unwilling to look at your evidence, but you who are unwilling to look at what we see in your evidence.

 

[Mycroft]

Mods..
can we get this claim of mindreading ability moved to a more appropriate section of the forum?

Shoo. You still have unanswered questions here:

http://206.225.95.123/forumlive/showthread.php?t=47232

 

[Orwell]

No, it's not!
The IDF does not embark upon missions to go out & shoot civilians.
The IDF does not routinely, unprovoked and on any given clear day, issue orders to open artillery fire and bomb civilians.
The IDF does not send tanks and bulldozers into civilan areas without probable cause and reasonable suspicion that those areas either harbor or are used by terrorists. In many cases, the civilians' property is designated and posted and the owners notified of the impending demolition, and opportunity is given for legal appeals !!!

See, I don't believe you. I believe Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, B'Tselem, the refusenicks and my local newspaper.

And, besides that, to stretch the use of the term "targeted" in this discussion and in the context it is understood, to destruction of property, is BS.

What, you think destruction of property is a new argument? You mean you didn't read the links about bulldozing houses?

 

[Orwell]

And in those ten pages on many occasions various people have looked at your evidence, commented on your evidence, and when they didn't agree it meant what you thought it meant, you got mad, called them names, and spammed some more instead of arguing your point of view.

That would be all fine and dandy if I actually was under the delusion that you guys are honest about these things. But I know better.

You see, I can find thousands of eye witnesses that claim to have seen extra-terrestrials, but the funny thing is when you examine these events one at a time, you often find holes in these stories, facts that don’t add up, or explanations that are just more likely than extra-terrestrial visitations.

More bovine manure. You're comparing HRW, AI, B'tselem, many journalists and foreign observers, etc. to UFO enthusiasts. You have no basis whatsoever to make such a comparison.

But there is so much evidence! Hundreds of books, dozens of organizations, so many eyewitnesses…and yet when you look at it all, piece by piece, so much of it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny, and what’s left over just isn’t conclusive. It’s easy to understand how a true believer could get frustrated and just start calling the skeptics names and spamming them with link after link of “evidence.”

Really? Boy, you are an intellectual and moral midget aren't you? There's nothing you won't say! A "true believer", eh? What gall! Why, oh why should I believe you clowns and not Human Rights watch, Amnesty International, B'Tselem, the refusenicks quoted in bunch of newspapers, etc.? What makes you more credible than them? It's your explanation for all of these Palestinian deaths that doesn't add up, not theirs! You sir, abuse scepticism and you're no sceptic! You're a poor imitation of sceptic, a fake sceptic who uses his fake scepticism as a support for his own prejudices.

The truth is nobody claims the IDF is perfect, but it’s also true that much of the crap that’s said about them just doesn’t stand up. For example, Zenith-Nadir did a very thorough fisking of several of you links, which you completely ignored. That demonstrates it’s not we who are unwilling to look at your evidence, but you who are unwilling to look at what we see in your evidence.

Zenith-Nadir essentially offered a nice bedtime story were the IDF are heroes and all Palestinians are villains. His idea of answering my criticism of the IDF is posting about the evil things Palestinian extremists do, as some kind of sick Tu Quoque, as if I was somehow defending Palestinian extremists. The fact that you take his crap seriously is an indication how far gone into partisan hackism you truly are.

I'm appalled at the level of bad faith people are exhibiting here! Shacking my head in disbelief!

 

[Mycroft]

Why, oh why should I believe you clowns and not Human Rights watch, Amnesty International, B'Tselem, the refusenicks quoted in bunch of newspapers, etc.?

The thing is, that question has been answered, only you weren't paying attention. The answer is many of those reports didn't say what you thought they said, and some are more credible than others.

Zenith-Nadir essentially offered a nice bedtime story were the IDF are heroes and all Palestinians are villains. His idea of answering my criticism of the IDF is posting about the evil things Palestinian extremists do, as some kind of sick Tu Quoque, as if I was somehow defending Palestinian extremists.

No, but that's what you perceive because you don't have the patience to pay attention.

If you have to shoot someone, it’s not a tu quoque argument to point out he was shooting at you. You’re not saying, ”He’s bad too” you’re saying why you had to shoot him. There is a difference.

The problem is you don’t want to look at why these people are shooting at each other. You want the quick simple answer, they’re both wrong, and you have no patience with those who are willing to look closer than that.

 

[a_unique_person]

Mods..
can we get this claim of mindreading ability moved to a more appropriate section of the forum?

Ditto.

 

[webfusion]

Really annoying, as an intentional method:

mycroft noted:For example, Zenith-Nadir did a very thorough fisking of several of your links, which you completely ignored. That demonstrates it’s not we who are unwilling to look at your evidence, but you who are unwilling to look at what we see in your evidence.

Likewise, I, webfusion, slammed them a few times, (post #270being a perfect example -- which prompted Orwell to admit:
"Ah, if that was the only evidence I was giving, I would agree that my case was weak."

but Orwell proceeded over and over to claim the entire weight of his "evidence" supports his claim that the IDF is targeting (meaning -- going out into the field and TRYING to kill Palestinians, as a mission, as an intentional method.)
His response has been: Webfusion is wrong. ( "I don't believe you" ) and Jocko is ignorant and thus wrong ("you think slower than you type." ) and Mycroft is biased and thus wrong, and ZN nothing more than a "hack" (actually , we're all hacks, according to Orwell).

Jocko said it best, "Again - I do not dismiss evidence of wrongdoing! I dismiss evidence of wrongdoing as proof that civilians are deliberately targeted by the IDF." and lo and behold, Orwell proceeded to place him on ignore!

Well, as you are apparently just trying to be annoying and not interested in true evaluation of things, Orwell, since I had you on ignore for quite a while, but changed that setting for this thread, now I must admit that it's now time to return to the calm and quiet of my little bizarro world, and adjust my forum system to delete every post you make from this point forward.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Zenith-Nadir essentially offered a nice bedtime story were the IDF are heroes and all Palestinians are villains.

Now you've gone and made me mad. I wasn't mad before but I certainly am now.

You are unfit for JREF or critical thinking, and here's why. You linked three B'Tselem testimonies. They were in order:

• Soldiers shell house with residents still inside, setting it on fire
• IDF soldiers kill eleven year-old Palestinian girl in Nablus, September 2004
• IDF soldiers kill Muhammad Diriyah

I noted TWICE in TWO SEPARATE posts in great detail that two of the stories were false. That is soldiers never shelled a house in the first story, the title was a lie, and IDF "soldiers" never shot an eleven year-old Palestinian girl in Nablus, the witness clearly states she saw no IDF in the area yet for some bizzare reason she speculates they must have shot her daughter and that speculation was printed as fact that IDF "soldiers" did shoot her daughter. Amazing propoganda.

I also detailed TWICE that the IDF most likely did shoot Muhammad Diriyah. I went into great detail to support my position on all three pieces of evidence that you chose to post to support you position.

So not only did you fail to vett your own material your atypical rebuttal is:

Zenith-Nadir essentially offered a nice bedtime story were the IDF are heroes and all Palestinians are villains.

Then Demon crawls out of his nasty hole and posts the same old garbage he has posted here for years.

Hmmm, missing out the crucial "C" as ever -that would be the almost forty years of illegal occupation, theft and brutal oppression causing Palestinian violence. Perhaps you could go to your local Higher Education facility and see if they have a course or something on which you could enrol? It might help you out of these mental impasses.

Which is Ironic because, once again, I posted TWICE in this very thread that Fatah was founded in 1959 by Yasser Arafat and their first terror attack was in 1965, two years before the occupation. I also posted twice that the PLO was founded in 1964, three years before the occupation and the text of the Palestinian National Charter called for the destruction of the state of Israel.

But those facts don't really matter to you "critical thinkers" because, as usual, eventhough the Palestinian terrorism predates the occupation the occupation is responsible for Palestinian terrorism. Period, end of critical thinking. And nothing, absolutely nothing on this planet shall shake the "the occupation is responsible for Palestinian terrorism" apple off the tree even if it is completely rotten and full of huge holes.

The fact that other folks aren't posting in this thread probably just indicates how much they're sick of the argument.

There are about 3 maybe 4 pro-Palestinian posters at JREF. And they are all very similar to you. Regurgitated old, and sometimes false testimonials, name calling, temper tantrums, spamming. Then when you go into great detail about how their link may be suspect, as I did, the usual rebuttal is, as you did in this very thread, cry whitewashing, use sweeping genereralizations, claim strawmen and claims of bad faith debating.

It ALWAYS the same. Always, Always, Always.

Palestinians Let Militants Back Into Gaza - 2 Dec, 2005

Palestinians have allowed up to 15 militants wanted by Israel to return to the Gaza Strip, violating a U.S.-wrested agreement that was to have let Israel monitor who enters the area from Egypt, Israel Radio reported Friday, citing Palestinian security officials.

The entry of the Hamas militants _ including one of the group's founders _ through the border crossing at Rafah threatened to set off Israeli economic sanctions, which would further batter Gaza's shattered economy.

You just don't get it Orwell, nor do you Demon, the fool or a_u_p. Israel didn't force the Palestinians to allow 15 wanted militants to return to the Gaza Strip to cause trouble. Israel didn't force Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades gunmen to burst into a government complex in the Gaza Strip yesterday. Israel didn't force the Palestinian Authority to halt its primaries on Tuesday because of allegations of widespread fraud and violence. Israel didn't force the kidnapping by Palestinian gunmen of a lion cub and rare parrots from the Gaza zoo on Monday. The Palestinians did those things all by themselves cuz incase you missed it there are no Israelis in Gaza!

Just like Israel doesn't force Palestinians - via the occupation - to belong to Hamas, Islamic Jihad or the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades. Those Palestinian groups want to destroy Israel, not end the occupation, and they do so by sending Palestinian men, women and children to blow up Israeli men, women and children.

Palestinians belong to those groups by their own free will. That is their choice and that is their decision. The occupation does not force them, like some mindless robot, to martyr themselves in a restaurant in Israel. At some point in your lives you will HAVE TO accept that the Palestinians are RESPONSIBLE for their own destiny. They are RESPONSIBLE for their own actions and their own decisions.

Since they - the Palestinians - have decided on terror and war since that first Fatah attack on Israel's National Water Carrier in 1965 - PRIOR TO THE OCCUPATION DEMON - they have received the same back from their victims, the Israelis. You folks just can't swallow that and choose to make Israel the scapegoat for all Palestinian woes. You do a diservice to the Palestinians for the real criminals are getting away with murder as you lambaste Israel for trying to stop murderers.

I close with this quote by me for I am done with Orwell, just like I am done with the Orwells before him.

The irony is instead of placing Palestinian terrorists and those who send them on trial, you, and others before you, decry the Israeli security measures. You call them abusive and place Israel in the dock, on the charge that it is Israel that is harming the Palestinians' quality of life. Sorry Orwell but saving lives is more important than preserving the quality of life.

 

[webfusion]

Israel test-fires Arrow missile. The system is designed to TARGET Iranian civilians, with the intention to wipe Iran off the Map.

Hey, wait a sec --- that's not true???
So, why is Israel developing missiles, if not to target civilians?
Help me with this, can someone, please clarify!

 

[webfusion]

Zenith-Nadir, if I may say so, while you think that Mohammed Diriyah was shot as the IDF entered his home, I disagree, and provided a different analysis of the situation, more likely than the IDF just bursting in and shooting (especially since the widow "didn't hear shots") -- Here is what I said. That idea was accepted graciously by Orwell who agreed 'his case was weak' if that example was examined closely, but all the other HRW and AI cases are excellent ways to prove the IDF is out there willy-nilly shooting people for target-sport.

See my post #116 for another typical rebuttal which was never responded to by Orwell.
His participation in this thread is not worth viewing, you are correct, ZN.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Israel test-fires Arrow missile. The system is designed to TARGET Iranian civilians, with the intention to wipe Iran off the Map.

Hey, wait a sec --- that's not true???
So, why is Israel developing missiles, if not to target civilians?
Help me with this, can someone, please clarify!

That's exactly my point. Israel is no threat to Iran. Zero, ziltch, nada. They've never been at war ever, they are a thousand miles apart, yet Israel has to spend millions upon millions of dollars on SECURITY MEASURES because:

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Wednesday lambasted Israel and Zionism and quoted the late Ayatollah Khomeini calling for Israel to be "wiped out from the map."

That is why I get so frikkin pissed at guys like Orwell. They just don't get it. They just don't understand the genocidal hatred of Israel and jews by many Muslims. They will even deny that is true, they will go down kicking and screaming that I, Zenith, am the real racist for even saying there is a genocidal hatred of Israel and jews by many Muslims.

I can even post text from Hamas's own covenant:

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.'

It doesn't say HAMAS will obliterate it, it doesn't say the Palestinians will obliterate it, it says "ISLAM will obliterate it". And they will continue to say "you are wrong...it is the occupation makes Palestinians militant"..."they are simply resisiting the occupation"...

Yet the President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad statement is clear to anyone who speak english or is honest. There is no mistake in the meaning of Israel to be "wiped out from the map."

So now Israel, who has done nothing in recorded history to Iran, has to spend millions upon millions on SECURITY MEASURES against Syria, the PLO, Fatah, Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command, Hizballah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades, Tanzim, Ahmed Abu Reish Brigade, Palestine Liberation Front, Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Force 17, ANO and the The Popular Resistance Committees and now...Iran.

Welcome to life as an Israeli.

 

[Jocko]

What? You out of your mind? It's like I'm speaking Greek or something! Do you understand english at all?

...blah, blah, blah...

And I'm so out of here.

Pity you couldn't have done this 9 pages ago, considering you haven't advanced a single coherent thought since then.

 

[Orwell]

The thing is, that question has been answered, only you weren't paying attention. The answer is many of those reports didn't say what you thought they said, and some are more credible than others.

No it hasn't. Since all of your alternate scenarios explaining these reports I linked are based on pure speculation (for instance, the soldiers were aiming at someone else stuff), all you and others have said is that they're not credible because we rather believe that the IDF doesn't do such things i.e. that's not what's happening because we say so. And that, by the way, contradicts refusenick claims and even the couple of occasions that I linked were Israeli officials are quoted saying that they were targeting civilians as a reprisal for attacks committed against Israeli civilians. And the soldiers were aiming at someone else stuff also gives the impression that the IDF is filled with trigger happy clowns who can't hit a barn without destroying the farmers house.

So I'll repeat my question: Why, oh why should I believe you clowns and not Human Rights watch, Amnesty International, B'Tselem, the refusenicks quoted in bunch of newspapers, etc.?

 

[Orwell]

And Zenith Nadir keeps droning on and on about genocidal hatred of Israel, totally not getting the point that I am not defending Palestinian extremism and that I don't give two flying fornications for that kind of thinking.

But that doesn't mean that I have to support every stupid thing the IDF and the Israeli government does. The security of Israel does not justify massive massive human rights abuses.