IDF General Sued For "Targeted Killings"

[WildCat]

Stranger things have happened--especially in the middle east, where nothing but strange things seem to happen lately.

Exhibit A.

 

[zenith-nadir]

A screen grab from a video released to media on December 30, 2005, by a previously unknown Palestinian group called Brigades of the Mujahideen shows a masked gunman reading a list of demands next to British hostage Kate Burton. Kate Burton, a 25-year-old British human rights worker and her parents were freed in the Gaza Strip on Friday by the Palestinian gunmen who kidnapped them two days earlier. (Ramatan via Reuters TV/Reuters)

Associated Press Dec 31, 2005

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - A British aid worker and her parents were whisked out of Gaza early Saturday after being released by Palestinian gunmen who had abducted them two days earlier.

A previously unknown group calling itself the Mujahedeen Brigades Jerusalem Branch claimed responsibility, threatening more abductions of foreigners if Israel doesn't abolish its "no-go" zone in the northern Gaza Strip. Israel imposed the off-limits area this week to prevent rocket fire, and has threatened to shoot anyone entering the zone.

The kidnappers said they released the hostages as a "goodwill gesture" after receiving assurances that Britain and the European Union would seek an end to the Israeli buffer zone. British officials, however, denied that a deal had been struck.

The kidnappers said they would seize international election observers if their demands were not met.

I love that propoganda spin..."we released the hostages as a "goodwill gesture" but we promise to seize more if our demands are not met.

Dec 31, 2005

GAZA (Reuters) - About 50 masked gunmen occupied a Palestinian government office in the Gaza Strip for several hours on Saturday to demand jobs, witnesses and a spokesman for the gunmen said.

The group, members of a political wing of the mainstream Fatah movement, occupied an Interior Ministry office in Deir el-Balah refugee camp, forced everyone to leave and stood guard outside.

(emphasis mine)

Do you see how it is over there JREFers? Palestinian terrorists kidnapped a British aid worker and her parents in Gaza because Israel enforced a "no-go zone" in Gaza to stop Kassam rocket attacks by other Palestinian terrorists in Gaza. Fatah terrorists stormed and took over the Palestinian Authority Interior Ministry office to demand jobs. Layers upon layers of terrorism which the Palestinian Authority - who has been in power since 1993 - refuses to confront and control.

Instead we get these well-worn and tired old lies from the Palestinian Authority that it is "Israel's fault". Which is one way to keep the useful idiots' minds off the real truth which is the PA's inaction to confront and control Palestinian terror:

Wednesday, 28 December 2005, 20:20 GMT

"The ways of buffer-zones, militarism, incursions, attacks, assassinations will just ... add to the cycle of violence and counter-violence," said senior negotiator Saeb Erekat in a BBC interview.

 

[zenith-nadir]

But wait...there's more:

14:28 Dec 30, '05

Anarchy in the Palestinian Authority (PA) spread to the Rafiah border crossing, which was closed Friday morning after European Union (EU) observers fled 100 armed PA policemen who formed a blockade.

...the EU's observers stationed at the crossing quickly fled the scene in panic while the gunmen prevented vehicles from reaching the crossing. The observers are responsible for monitoring the crossing and enforcing the agreement between Israel and the PA on live camera transmissions of border activity.

The armed men refused to heed demands by PA officials to leave the compound, and the EU workers left out of fear for their lives.

"Our monitors are now in the Kerem Shalom military base [in Israel]. When the situation is clear, and these people leave, we will go back to our work," said EU spokesman Julio De La Guardia.

(emphasis mine)

Incase you missed it in the story the "gunmen" are PA policemen.

 

[webfusion]

While there is now another thread running about the Useful Idiots, I wanted to bump this one to mention a statement issued this morning by the Israelis, regarding targeting civilians :

"The IDF is continuing Operation Blue Skies in the northern Gaza Strip.
There were no terrorist missile launches over the weekend targeting our civilians."


And the Palestinian Authority has issued the following "resolution" on New Year's Eve:
PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas vowed last night to end the chaos.

"It is time to impose the authority of law and order," Abbas said in a New Year's message broadcast on Palestinian television. "These events ... harm our international credibility and strengthen Israel's pretext to undermine peace and stop withdrawals."

"The national authority regards chaos, anarchy, and challenges to the authority of law and order as dangers threatening the entire national project," he reiterated.

-------------- Reiterate away, Mr Abbas.

 

[davefoc]

ZN,
I appreciate your posting of news articles concerning the Gaza strip.

But are they part of a point?

Do you think those of us that have criticized Israel's expansion think that when Israel withdraws from its settelements all happiness and peace is going to erupt?

Right now, there is a clear cut border between the Gaza Strip and Israel. There are not Israeli settlers in the Gaza Strip to muddy the waters between terrorist attacks incited because of Israel's placement of settlers into the Gaza Strip and terrorist attacks which are aimed at the destruction of Israel.

The people of Gaza now have a clear cut choice. End the chaos or deal with the repercussions of not being able to prevent terrorist attacks from their soil. Previously, the choice was to put up with Israeli expansion fueled by Israeli trolling for immigrants all over the world and Israeli subsidies from the US or to resist the Israeli occupiers with violence. Can you imagine that it might have been difficult to develop a significant consensus in the Gaza strip that the peaceful accomodation of Israel's territorial goals might not be the best way to go?

So there was violence before and there is violence now. Does this mean that Israel should just keep expanding? I guess to you it does. To me it is just evidence when a country is founded with massive immigration on land that other people see as their own there will be violence. Eventually, violence will subside as it becomes in the best interest of everybody to accept the new status quo. But if Israel never defines stable borders and continues to expand then it is pretty reasonable to expect that the process of acceptance and the end of violence is not going to start.

Right now, my guess, is that there are many Gaza Strip citizens that would like to see the rocket firings into Israel be stopped. It is obvious, that Israel has no choice to do what is necessary to stop them. There is undoubtedly an overwhelming consensus in Israel to do what is necessary to prevent them. And the Gaza strip citizens realize that there can be no stability in the Gaza strip while rocket attacks on Israel take place from Gaza Strip territory.

I wonder if you personally want them stopped. You seem to find solace in stories of Palestininan violence. It seems that in the stories of Palestinian violence you see a justification for the establishment of Israel and its continued expansion. Something like the Palestinians are so bad that they deserve whatever has happened to them.

To me, your views are exactly analogous to how the American settlers felt about the Indians. The Indians felt that they needed to resist the American expansion into territory they considered theirs. The Indians resisted with the same kind of brutal terrorist attacks that must be deployed by the side in any dispute that is outgunned. At the time of the American expansion the Indians were reviled and portrayed as lessor humans that deserved their plight. Eventually peace came when the Indians had accepted their plight and the Americans had clearly defined the limits of their expansion. Not exactly, a just solution from the Indian's stand point but with time and with some generosity on the part of the Americans eventually there was peace and there is a widespread understanding and empathy for the Indian throughout the general American population.

 

[zenith-nadir]

ZN, I appreciate your posting of news articles concerning the Gaza strip. But are they part of a point? Do you think those of us that have criticized Israel's expansion think that when Israel withdraws from its settelements all happiness and peace is going to erupt?

I post recent news articles concerning the Gaza strip to debunk that Palestinian "resistance" = "Israeli expansion". I post recent news articles concerning the Gaza strip to debunk that IDF "retaliation" = "a cycle of violence". Those myths are sold by the useful idiots, some of whom are professional apologists for terror - See: Saeb Erekat - or have unwittingly become apologists for terror. Allow me to present my argument.

Back in 1993 Israel and the PLO - a terror organization - signed the Oslo Accords. The accords called for withdrawal of Israeli forces from parts of the Gaza Strip and West Bank, not all of the Gaza Strip and West Bank. The accords also called for the Palestinian right to self-government within those areas through the creation of the Palestinian Authority. Yitzhak Rabin, Bill Clinton, and Yasser Arafat shook hands on it in public. It was a historic moment in Palestinian and Israeli history, so what happened?

More Israelis were killed by Palestinian terrorism in the 5 years after the Oslo agreement than in the preceding years. Full stop.

Here's where I generally hear the "israeli expansion/settlements = resistance" or the "IDF measures = cycle of violence" myths. But that is nothing more than being an apologist for terror. Let's call the terror what it is, terror. This terror was organized by Palestinians who belonged to terror organizations who were sponsored by Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and the Palestinian Authority. They were not "resisting the occupation" they were actively, with malice aforethought, terrorizing civilians inside Israel regardless of their race, age, nationality, combat status or religion. The mandate of Hamas and Islamic Jihad is to destroy Israel.

Over 110,000 Palestinians came into Israel every single day to go to work before the Oslo Accords and tens of thousands worked on Israeli settlements, feel free to look it up. Trade between Palestinians and Israel was strong. Then came the spike in terrorism after the PLO signed the Oslo Accords.

Strangely Israel's new peace partner, the Palestinian Authority never ever seemed to arrest the leaders of these terror organizations, here and there they arrested a few low-level militants but eventually they ended up releasing them quietly when no one was looking. Then it became well known and documented that Arafat through the Palestinian Authority was supporting the terrorism. It became well known and documented that the Palestinian Authority was sponsoring incitement against jews and Israelis in official PA-controlled media, schools, and mosques.

So who was left to stop the terrorists responsible for the spike in terror after the Oslo Accords? The IDF.

From 1993 through 1999 the IDF began to attack and kill the Palestinian terrorists who were responsible for the spike in terror after Oslo. These terror organizations were allowed to use Palestinian civilians areas for cover and concealment, and they used Palestinian Authority interests as bases of operations and firing positions.

Arafat's two-stage strategy of negotiation with Israel while sponsoring the terrorists resulted in the much-debated system of restrictions on the movement of Palestinian goods and the Palestinian people. This much-debated system of restrictions on the movement of Palestinian goods and the Palestinian people became - through the rhetoric of the useful idiots - worse than the terrorism itself. Then in "great-moments-in-turnspeak" the useful idiots apologized for Palestinian terrorism as an inevitable side-effect of restrictions on movement of Palestinian goods and the Palestinian people.

Eventually the Palestinian economy suffered one of the deepest recessions in modern history because of Arafat's two-stage strategy of negotiation with Israel while sponsoring the terrorists. The Israeli checkpoints and closures to prevent Palestinian terrorism - which the PA was sponsoring - raised the cost of doing business, caused wide-spread unemployment and disrupted the predictability needed for orderly economic Palestinian life. Then came the failure at Camp David and the "second intifada". From there it just went downhill until the disengagement from Gaza.

The historic - though one-sided - disengagement from Gaza had one beneficial effect, it exposed the Palestinian terror organizations for who they truely are. Terror organizations. I post news articles concerning the Gaza strip as evidence of that fact. Even after the removal of all restrictions on movement of Palestinian goods and the Palestinian people in Gaza the terrorists still terrorize Israel by firing rockets and sending their suicide bombers. Now not only have they continued to terrorize Israel they have begun to terrorize foreigners in Gaza, they terrorize other Palestinians in Gaza and the very Palestinian Authority who supported them all those years.

Right now, there is a clear cut border between the Gaza Strip and Israel. There are not Israeli settlers in the Gaza Strip to muddy the waters between terrorist attacks incited because of Israel's placement of settlers into the Gaza Strip and terrorist attacks which are aimed at the destruction of Israel.

Exactly. And the rockets and suicide bombers still come.

The people of Gaza now have a clear cut choice. End the chaos or deal with the repercussions of not being able to prevent terrorist attacks from their soil.

They have had that choice since 1993 and I shall not be "told" that they have not. The Palestinian Authority working as an agent for the Palestinian people signed many treaties obligating them to prevent terrorist attacks from their soil. And the perpetrators of the "chaos" - Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah's-own Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades - have been operating in Gaza for over 10 years.

Can you imagine that it might have been difficult to develop a significant consensus in the Gaza strip that the peaceful accomodation of Israel's territorial goals might not be the best way to go?

Hamas and Islamic Jihad want to destroy Israel. They say it over and over and over again. Israel's "territorial goals" are an excuse for terror.

So there was violence before and there is violence now. Does this mean that Israel should just keep expanding?

Even when Israel leaves all of Gaza it is still "expanding". Next step in that evolution is even when Israel is no longer in Gaza it is still occupied.

To me it is just evidence when a country is founded with massive immigration on land that other people see as their own there will be violence.

That's an apology for terror. Sorry dave.

Eventually, violence will subside as it becomes in the best interest of everybody to accept the new status quo.

60 years and still counting dave...

But if Israel never defines stable borders and continues to expand...

Back to the expansion excuse for terror. Hamas and Islamic Jihad want to destroy Israel. They say it over and over and over again. Israel's "territorial goals" are just an excuse for the terror of Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

...then it is pretty reasonable to expect that the process of acceptance and the end of violence is not going to start.

The disengagement from Gaza and the failure of that move to end Palestinian violence in Gaza is your red flag that it's time go beyond blaming Israeli expansion and Israeli immigration for Palestinian terrorism.

It is obvious, that Israel has no choice to do what is necessary to stop them.

And the IDF has had that responsibility since Israel was formed in 1948.

There is undoubtedly an overwhelming consensus in Israel to do what is necessary to prevent them.

Israelis don't like buses, restaurants, shopping malls and nightclubs to be blown up by fundamentalist Palestinian suicide bombers just like Iraqis don't like insurgent suicide bombers blowing up there or Londoners don't like suicide bombers in London either. Crazy huh?

And the Gaza strip citizens realize that there can be no stability in the Gaza strip while rocket attacks on Israel take place from Gaza Strip territory.

Honestly Dave, if they haven't realized that already since 1993 and through two intifadas than I dunno what to say.

I wonder if you personally want them stopped.

...and here comes the strawman...

You seem to find solace in stories of Palestininan violence.

Strawman #1.

It seems that in the stories of Palestinian violence you see a justification for the establishment of Israel and its continued expansion.

Strawman #2 and the expansion excuse for terror again.

Something like the Palestinians are so bad that they deserve whatever has happened to them.

Strawman #3, I do not think all Palestinians are terrorists.

To me, your views are exactly analogous to how the American settlers felt about the Indians. The Indians felt that they needed to resist the American expansion into territory they considered theirs. The Indians resisted with the same kind of brutal terrorist attacks that must be deployed by the side in any dispute that is outgunned. At the time of the American expansion the Indians were reviled and portrayed as lessor humans that deserved their plight. Eventually peace came when the Indians had accepted their plight and the Americans had clearly defined the limits of their expansion. Not exactly, a just solution from the Indian's stand point but with time and with some generosity on the part of the Americans eventually there was peace and there is a widespread understanding and empathy for the Indian throughout the general American population.

Emphasis mine. With all due respect that was nothing more than attacking your three previous strawmen.

 

[webfusion]

no solace

Z-N, I'm copying that and keeping it in a text file. You covered it all with a well-conceived and forthright posting. I am sure your analysis will come in handy at other forums I participate in, where the anti-Israel sentiment is much stronger and more virulent than anything offered at JREF.


One sentence stands out in davefoc's post:
"You seem to find solace in stories of Palestinian violence"

Z-N dismisses it (correctly) as a strawman.

But I want to go one step further ----- there is one thing that we Israelis are really upset about. We are upset that our good neighbors, Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, who we work with, who we trade with, who we know on first-name basis, have been hijacked by their doofus leaders into a confrontation that leads them to face our Army.
The Palestinians do not just exist in enclaves that were outside the standard Israeli 'borderlines' agreed to by the War Armistice in Rhodes during 1949 (the Green Lines that were crossed in June 1967, now defined as "The Occupation" or "The Expansion") -- You must take into account that the palestinians are Israeli citizens, they are physicians, teachers, truck drivers, engineers, police, dentists, farmers, etc.

There is no solace in the continued conflict.
There is no aim to continue it, from our perspective.
By the end of 2006, the Palestinians can have their State if they so desire, and Israelis of all walks of life will support it.

Under one condition.

It is disarmed, it is demilitarized, and it operates under the hegemony of Israel, much like the people in Lichtenstein.

 

[gnome]

Z-N, I'm copying that and keeping it in a text file. You covered it all with a well-conceived and forthright posting. I am sure your analysis will come in handy at other forums I participate in, where the anti-Israel sentiment is much stronger and more virulent than anything offered at JREF.


One sentence stands out in davefoc's post:
"You seem to find solace in stories of Palestinian violence"

Z-N dismisses it (correctly) as a strawman.

But I want to go one step further ----- there is one thing that we Israelis are really upset about. We are upset that our good neighbors, Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, who we work with, who we trade with, who we know on first-name basis, have been hijacked by their doofus leaders into a confrontation that leads them to face our Army.
The Palestinians do not just exist in enclaves that were outside the standard Israeli 'borderlines' agreed to by the War Armistice in Rhodes during 1949 (the Green Lines that were crossed in June 1967, now defined as "The Occupation" or "The Expansion") -- You must take into account that the palestinians are Israeli citizens, they are physicians, teachers, truck drivers, engineers, police, dentists, farmers, etc.

There is no solace in the continued conflict.
There is no aim to continue it, from our perspective.
By the end of 2006, the Palestinians can have their State if they so desire, and Israelis of all walks of life will support it.

Under one condition.

It is disarmed, it is demilitarized, and it operates under the hegemony of Israel, much like the people in Lichtenstein.

Lichtenstein lives under the hegemony of Israel?

What if Palestine were still armed, but under sane leadership, and brought no further violence to Israel... would such a state be accepted?

 

[webfusion]

armed and dangerous

gnome, yeah, that sentence construction was a bit lame ---- I'm still woozy.

Lichtenstein is under the hegomony of the Swiss.
It truly provides a fantastic model for the palestinians, who have a small area (gaza) totally interdependent on Israel for survival, and the hilly areas of Judah/Shomron to share with the jewish residents living there now.

By 'disarmed' the working assumption is 'demilitarized' -- no standing army, no air force, no armored division, no anti-aircraft missiles, no land mines, etc.

Israel has already permitted a force of over 30,000 Security Personnel and the idea was to get them to act against the various terror factions, stop them, and get the violence against Israel under control. That was the premise (and the promise).

To answer your question, gnome, I think the palestinians are already under sane leadership. I have no problem with them choosing Abbas as their President, to tell you the truth, I don't even have a problem with them placing HAMAS representatives into their Parliament or local municipalities. At some level, these HAMAS people are quite sane, they stand for a lot of good things, bringing social justice and services to their communities, and having a deep concern for the tenets of islam.

There is nothing wrong with any of that. Israel supports freedom for people to worship islam, and supports efforts of the palestinians to improve their lives. If the palestinans would decide as a matter of policy that having jews as neighbors is fine, then everything would be rosy. Lichtenstein and the Swiss.

Wishful thinking, right? !!!

 

[Skeptic]

Incidentally, Z-N the jerusalem post had just reported there were 2,990 attempted terrorist attacks on israel during the 2005 "truce" with the PLO/Hamas/Islamic Jihad terrorists.

Needless to say, the attacks came from all factions and sections of the Palestinian organizations, whether or not they have signed a "peace agreement" with israel or not.

 

[Mycroft]

Incidentally, Z-N the jerusalem post had just reported there were 2,990 attempted terrorist attacks on israel during the 2005 "truce" with the PLO/Hamas/Islamic Jihad terrorists.

Needless to say, the attacks came from all factions and sections of the Palestinian organizations, whether or not they have signed a "peace agreement" with israel or not.

Whoah! Saying that makes you a genocidal war-mongering imperialist, don't you know that?

BTW, is that the same truce that's now officially over, despite the fact that the frequency of attack is indistinguishable from before the truce began?

 

[David Swidler]

Well, once you distort the meaning of "truth," it's only a small mispronunciation away from distorting "truce."

 

[webfusion]

so, sue me

Statistics, if looked at in their totality, indicate that the number of terror attacks, have dropped due to the truce.

From a competing source other than The Jerusalem Post:
(Ha'Aretz)

• Drop in terror is due to truce with militants

The Shin Bet's statistics on terror attacks confirm that terrorist activity in 2005 dropped considerably compared to the previous four and a half years. The main reason for the sharp decline is the truce in the territories, the security service said Sunday. This is the third year in a row in which the number of terrorist acts has been reduced sharply.

Terrorist attacks claimed the lives of 45 Israelis last year, compared to 117 in 2004, marking a 60 percent reduction.
The fact that Hamas, in general, stopped engaging in terror activities changed the picture.

I just thought it might be useful to offer the perspective of the Israeli experts.
Carry on...

 

[zenith-nadir]

Palestinian police shout after storming government offices in Rafah refugee camp, southern Gaza Strip January 2, 2006. About 200 policemen stormed government offices in the southern Gaza Strip town of Rafah on Monday to protest against the failure of the Palestinian Authority to fight growing lawlessness, witnesses said. (Ibraheem Abu Mustafa/Reuters)

Huh? the Palestinian police are storming government offices now?

Jan. 2, 2006 12:11

A day after eight veteran Fatah leaders called for delaying next month's elections, about 200 Palestinian policemen, shooting into the air, briefly took over several government buildings on Monday to protest the Palestinian Authority's failure to impose law and order in Gaza before returning to their positions.

No one was immediately hurt in the takeovers in the southern town of Rafah, but the policemen forced employees from the buildings and all work was halted.

Now the Palestinian police are illegally taking over Palestinian Authority government buildings in protest. Why?

Jan. 2, 2006 12:11

The police officers demanded that the Palestinian Authority grant them more authority in facing armed gangs that have taken control of government and elections offices and abducted foreigners in recent months.

So the police want more authority in facing armed gangs who have taken control of government and elections offices and abducted foreigners... so they - the police - illegally took over Palestinian Authority government buildings "in protest".

I find no "solace in stories of Palestininan violence" like this davefoc. I worries me to no end that even the Palestinian police look and act like the gunmen they are suppose to arrest and disarm. Is this the future Palestinian state? Is this what Palestinians have to look forward to where even the Palestinian police act like terrorists and storm government offices at gunpoint?

 

[zenith-nadir]

Incidentally, Z-N the jerusalem post had just reported there were 2,990 attempted terrorist attacks on israel during the 2005 "truce" with the PLO/Hamas/Islamic Jihad terrorists.

Here's what I read:

10:58 02/01/2006

• In the past year there have been fewer explosive charges (199 compared to 592)
• fewer mortar shells (848 compared to 1,231)
• fewer shooting incidents (1,133 compared to 1,621)
• Only the number of Qassam rockets fired at Israel has increased - 377 compared to 309 in the previous year.

 

[Mycroft]

Terrorist attacks claimed the lives of 45 Israelis last year, compared to 117 in 2004, marking a 60 percent reduction.
The fact that Hamas, in general, stopped engaging in terror activities changed the picture.

I question the conclusion. The reduction in death may well be due to greater efficiency of the IDF and Shin-Bet, if Ha'aretz wants to establish that it's the truce that's responsible for the fewer deaths, they need to demonstrate that there have been a corresponding drop in terrorist attempts.

 

[Mycroft]

Well, once you distort the meaning of "truth," it's only a small mispronunciation away from distorting "truce."

Lol!

 

[webfusion]

Mycroft, you're a good skeptic. Indeed, the information needs to be looked at more closely.

I question the conclusion. The reduction in death may well be due to greater efficiency of the IDF and Shin-Bet, if Ha'aretz wants to establish that it's the truce that's responsible for the fewer deaths, they need to demonstrate that there have been a corresponding drop in terrorist attempts.

It wasn't Ha"aretz trying to establish anything, it was the paper reporting what they had been offered by the Shin-Bet itself.
My fault, I guess, for not providing a link to the original story
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/664916.html

• The Shin Bet and the Israel Defense Forces attribute the reduction mainly to the improvement in their joint capability to foil terrorist attacks and to act against terrorist organizations.

So, it could be said that the overall number has dropped, not for the lack of effort on the part of the terrorists, but for the lack of ability to overcome the capabilites of the IDF.

And I will venture to say 2006 will be even a 'worse' year for the terrorists, and the truce will continue to be upheld, in the main.

 

[Mycroft]

I think the subject teaches skepticism. You look at a few staged photographs, read a couple texts that have critical facts missing to slant the story, and you learn skepticism very quickly.

A few years ago the media was all over a three month "lull" in the violence, and I bought it just like everyone else. Then I found a tiny under-reported story about how the actual number of attempts were exactly the same and the “lull” was just a statistical anomaly where for that period of time there just were not any successful attacks.

 

[webfusion]

From the OP --- (does anyone even remember the OP?)

"Can the terrorists be sued? Where? In what jurisdiction?" -- posted by webfusion.


http://www.virtualjerusalem.com/news.php?id=1253

• American terror victims of HAMAS are suing British National Westminster Bank in New York, which represents 'Interpal'.