Freedom of speech?

[TurkeysGhost]

Hard to punch or get punched if you never get off the couch.

The wise, dispassionate moderates that won't lift a finger to resist fascism. Thanks for the advice though

 

[Emily's Cat]

Emphasis mine.

I agree with everything Meadmaker has said. Saying that one's own side is merely pretty bad and the other side is worse is weak. Even worse are those who find punching a Proud Boy positively delightful.

A principled person can find the Proud Boys despicable and guilty of promoting violence while still saying that this particular act in this particular context was also wrong --- not morally equivalent but wrong nonetheless.

Agreed.

 

[Meadmaker]

I have attended many protests in my area, which is admittedly not a violent hotspot like others. I tend to carry a firearm (legally) concealed when I know it's going to be an event with explicit fascists, and pepper spray when it's just your average MAGA CHUDs.

I feel safer already.

 

[Thermal]

Hard to punch or get punched if you never get off the couch.

The wise, dispassionate moderates that won't lift a finger to resist fascism. Thanks for the advice though

Couch? That's funny. I thought I was in Philly when the George Floyd protests started, in the protest marches in my town, and have counterprotested at Keystone ******* Klan activities for the past couple years. The Proud Pussies didn't show up to their last claimed rally in Clark Park. These guys cancel a lot.

But no ******* guns. Do you really want real blood on your hands? Captain America is a ******* comic book character. Funerals and prisons are real.

 

[johnny karate]

Jesus Christ! I was going to write something and then I saw that you said it had to be threads I started. Contributing isn't even enough.

The world is full of people demanding loyalty oaths these days. "Hmmmm.....he called armed militia groups 'yahoos'.....but that doesn't sound sufficiently sincere to me......."

If you were to do a thorough investigation into what I write about on the subject, you would see a lot of cases where I began by questioning what seemed to be the dominant narrative, and then looking up and finding facts about it. It's a skepticism thing. When I see behavior described that doesn't seem normal, but does seem to play into stereotypes, I wonder about it, and always suspect there's something else in play that hasn't been presented.

Sometimes, I investigate and find out that there is, in fact, a lot of things not presented. Sometimes, I investigate and find that, in reality, the people involved really were every bit as stupid or evil as portrayed in the media. It varies.

But I wondered what I had written on the subject, and I got to wondering how I would even look it up. I knew a word I often used to describe right wingers with guns was "yahoos", so I searched for posts I had written that used that word.

I’m not demanding anything from you. You do you to your heart’s content.

But by that same token, I am also not obligated to believe claims you make that come across to me as cynical lip service, and I can freely express that disbelief.

Sorry if that hurts your feelings.

 

[portlandatheist]

I don't see it as a great move, mostly out of self preservation, to instigate violence at these kinds of events, but think showing up prepared to defend yourselves against known violent actors is the correct action.

We know what happens when counter protestors show up to these events thinking that the rules of decency apply. Ask the people in Salem that got absolutely hammered by armed proud boys when they thought they could wave flags and signs peacefully.

Our tooth collector is probably regretting his actions, mostly because he's catching a felony charge. Probably should not have done that, or at least done more to conceal his identity. That probably wasn't a wise move, though I understand the sentiment. I have nothing unkind to say about him or the bottle throwers though, though it is likely action I would not consider advisable.

I have attended many protests in my area, which is admittedly not a violent hotspot like others. I tend to carry a firearm (legally) concealed when I know it's going to be an event with explicit fascists, and pepper spray when it's just your average MAGA CHUDs. I don't seek out violent confrontation, and fascists are usually so outnumbered here they aren't willing to start any fights.

I'm grateful you do not live in Portland.

 

[johnny karate]

Couch? That's funny. I thought I was in Philly when the George Floyd protests started, in the protest marches in my town, and have counterprotested at Keystone ******* Klan activities for the past couple years. The Proud Pussies didn't show up to their last claimed rally in Clark Park. These guys cancel a lot.

But no ******* guns. Do you really want real blood on your hands? Captain America is a ******* comic book character. Funerals and prisons are real.

This is a thread about someone getting punched in the face. You might be overreacting just a bit.

 

[johnny karate]

Emphasis mine.

Agreed.

Cool.

However, it should be noted that you have openly admitted to the one-sided approach you take after making a sweeping generalization that proved to be false.

In light of that, I don’t see why anyone should take your opinion seriously.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Seems to me that people who claim to abhor political violence would care a lot about being accurate about the levels of political violence coming from each side.

By all objective measure, the right wing is the overwhelming source of violence at these events. "Both sides" may technically be true, but elides the tremendous disparity of violence that is quite obvious.

 

[Thermal]

This is a thread about someone getting punched in the face. You might be overreacting just a bit.

It's a thread about the initiation of violent assault by the self proclaimed good guys. Go ahead, check the OP. No, you do not get to gloss over that bit of inconvenient story.

Actually, it is the whole story, the tables turning to initiation of violent assault by the side that claims to denounce that very act. You might be softpedaling just a bit.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Cool.

However, it should be noted that you have openly admitted to the one-sided approach you take after making a sweeping generalization that proved to be false.

In light of that, I don’t see why anyone should take your opinion seriously.

Umm... no... It's more that I don't respond to the people that I have on ignore, and whose posts I refuse to read. Sorry if that isn't clear to you.

On the other hand, you pretty routinely dismiss any view that doesn't match your own, and simply assume that if someone disagrees with your vehemence on a topic, they must belong to "the bad guys".

 

[Thermal]

Seems to me that people who claim to abhor political violence would care a lot about being accurate about the levels of political violence coming from each side.

By all objective measure, the right wing is the overwhelming source of violence at these events. "Both sides" may technically be true, but elides the tremendous disparity of violence that is quite obvious.

Depends on how you view the parties. I wouldn't call the Proud Boys a political group. They are a social group, with social objectives, not political aspirations. The street rallys are more like slightly refined gang fighting.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Seems to me that people who claim to abhor political violence would care a lot about being accurate about the levels of political violence coming from each side.

By all objective measure, the right wing is the overwhelming source of violence at these events. "Both sides" may technically be true, but elides the tremendous disparity of violence that is quite obvious.

I abhor political violence. The fact that "one side" does it more doesn't make it more acceptable when it's coming from "the other side".

I deplore aggression. I deplore aggression in the form of military engagements that are not purely defensive. I also deplore aggression in the form of self-righteous vigilantes who feel justified forcing their views on other people through violence. The fact that military aggression has a larger overall impact does not make idiotic vigilantes more acceptable to me.

On more than one occasion, you've presented views that seem to imply that I should choose the "lesser" evil, and support it. I refuse to do so. You see this as a choice between a great evil and a minor evil, and look no further. I see a choice between evil and good, and hence I will choose good. I reject your false dichotomy as nothing more than a thinly-veiled appeal to might makes right.

 

[johnny karate]

It's a thread about the initiation of violent assault by the self proclaimed good guys. Go ahead, check the OP. No, you do not get to gloss over that bit of inconvenient story.

Actually, it is the whole story, the tables turning to initiation of violent assault by the side that claims to denounce that very act. You might be softpedaling just a bit.

If you say so.

Speaking of soft-pedaling, here’s you being casually dismissive about the threat the Proud Boys pose:

We've had lone nuts and small groups of nuts since the beginning of civilization. That doesn't make the proud boys more powerful. Perspective is all I ask. They are a small group of no political power and little social influence. They are not taking over anything.

I’m not sure what is being discussed in this thread that somehow elicits a higher level of concern from you.

 

[Meadmaker]

Seems to me that people who claim to abhor political violence would care a lot about being accurate about the levels of political violence coming from each side.

By all objective measure, the right wing is the overwhelming source of violence at these events. "Both sides" may technically be true, but elides the tremendous disparity of violence that is quite obvious.

Because, what really matters is making sure we can correctly identify "us" and "them". Seems to me that that guy over there would be saying something different if he were one of "us", so he' probably one of "them".

 

[Thermal]

If you say so.

Speaking of soft-pedaling, here’s you being casually dismissive about the threat the Proud Boys pose:


I’m not sure what is being discussed in this thread that somehow elicits a higher level of concern from you.

Then...going out on a limb here...read the thread.

The Proud Boys as a group are impotent twats. Individuals may be trouble, as individuals have been for millennia. Here, the Proud Boys did nothing. Their opposite number initiated felonious violence. That's a problem for me.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Today in adventures of the dangers of both sides

White Supremacist Had List of Feds to Kill and Doxx: Unsealed File

When members of a white supremacist street-fighting gang caught charges for their participation in a deadly riot, fellow travelers on the website Gab had a suggestion: Doxx the U.S. officials involved in the case, or maybe just kill them.

A newly unsealed search warrant application from October 2018 reveals that feds were interested in threats made to federal law enforcement on the extremist-friendly social network. The threats concerned a Department of Justice official, a U.S. attorney, a prosecutor, and others involved in a federal case against members of the white supremacist Rise Above Movement. Months earlier, one of the Gab users involved had also helped doxx a blogger, attracting attention from another user who would later be accused of massacring worshippers in a Pittsburgh synagogue.

White supremacists were making moves to dox and/or murder federal agents that were responsible for the criminal investigations into other white supremacists that were investigated and charged for their violent actions at Unite the Right.

But yeah, someone at UTR on the "other side" probably threw a punch or two, so things are about equal .

https://www.thedailybeast.com/white-supremacist-chad-bagwell-allegedly-had-list-of-feds-to-kill-and-doxx-unsealed-file

 

[johnny karate]

Umm... no... It's more that I don't respond to the people that I have on ignore, and whose posts I refuse to read. Sorry if that isn't clear to you.

On the other hand, you pretty routinely dismiss any view that doesn't match your own, and simply assume that if someone disagrees with your vehemence on a topic, they must belong to "the bad guys".

You made a claim that violent rhetoric on this forum was only coming from the left.

I provided evidence that proved that claim to be incorrect.

The rationalization that you offered in response was to say that you don’t actually pay attention to violent rhetoric from the right.

If you’re not willing to look at both sides of the equation, how can your judgement on this issue be considered valid?

 

[smartcooky]

Seems to me that people who claim to abhor political violence would care a lot about being accurate about the levels of political violence coming from each side.

By all objective measure, the right wing is the overwhelming source of violence at these events. "Both sides" may technically be true, but elides the tremendous disparity of violence that is quite obvious.

There are a disturbing number of people on this forum who seem to be of a mind that "Proud Boys" and their ilk are bad and violent, and Antifa are bad and violent, so it balances out because both sides are equally bad..... it doesn't and they aren't!

Antifa types are a loose movement of people who do not generally have criminal records and are only interested in opposing the rising tide of fascism and white supremacy. They mostly target far right-wing and white supremacist protests.

White Supremacist groups such as Proud Boys, Aryan Nation, The Base, Atomwaffen, Vanguard America & American Front et al are organised, violent, racist criminal gangs with assault and murder on their resume. They are bent on making America a "White Homeland", and to that end, they stockpile weapons, form armed militias and spread hate and vilification of anyone that doesn't match their imagined ideal of a white American patriot. They will commit violence ANYONE who disagrees with them, including other white people whom they regard as "race traitors".

Treating these two groups as "equally bad" is short-sighted and beyond ignorant.

 

[Thermal]

Today in adventures of the dangers of both sides



White supremacists were making moves to dox and/or murder federal agents that were responsible for the criminal investigations into other white supremacists that were investigated and charged for their violent actions at Unite the Right.

But yeah, someone at UTR on the "other side" probably threw a punch or two, so things are about equal .

https://www.thedailybeast.com/white-supremacist-chad-bagwell-allegedly-had-list-of-feds-to-kill-and-doxx-unsealed-file

Yeah, and the feds handled that federal offense, like they have with generations of violent white supremacist biker gangs, for instance. That's no justification for you or I to go all Captain America in the street. They are violent criminals. We are not.