psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
I don't think that you will win a single convert (at least in this forum) by saying that unbelievers will go to hell. In fact, you might even push those who are wavering away.
Thor 2
Philosopher
"Atheists seem to assume that people who believe blah, blah, blah ......."
Here we go again with the assumption that all atheists are in lock step because they have just that one thing in common...... No belief in sky daddies.
I think it easier for some to believe in a nice comfy place they will go to after they die, than to believe they will just cease to exist. Ceasing to exist is an abhorrent idea for some.
Modified
Philosopher
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2006
- Messages
- 6,985
That was actually the genesis of my doubts. I can remember (or remember remembering) when I was seven years old, sitting in my basement contemplating how vile a god would have to be to enact eternal punishment on anyone.
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
That's right. We cannot know for certain that he truly believes there are no gods, but no matter how strongly you assert that he cannot know that, it won't change his belief.
However I can state with absolute certainty that there are no gods, for the simple reason that they cannot exist, by definition. This won't change unless the definition of 'god' changes to one that is compatible with reality, ie. the supernatural element is dropped.
No, believers are just not concerned about reality. They know their gods aren't real but they believe in them anyway, because it makes them feel better. But we all do that. If we stuck only to what was real we would go mad.
Everybody's an atheist of some belief - or do you also believe in Bob? How can you give lessons on what someone believes if you are not one of them yourself? If a nonbeliever in Christianity can't give lessons on the Bible, then a nonbeliever in reality can't give lessons on the non-existence of gods.
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
Which god would that be? Not the Christian one... unless you think eternal life is a punishment.
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2006
- Messages
- 36,371
Perfect - I like that.
Thor 2
Philosopher
Yes I think Ramjets - "They know their gods aren't real but they believe in them anyway," is about as nonsensical as a statement can be. We should have a special award for the ridiculous.
Loss Leader
I would save the receptionist., Moderator
I remember at 12 or 13 lying in my bed playing fervently that God just blink the lights or give some sign he was actually real for me. Nothing ever happened.
I'll do you one better: I can state with absolute certainty that I've never heard a definition of "god" that was self-consistent. If I ever come across one, then I'll unpack whether it's logically consistent with everything else.
ETA: On second thought, I believe you and I are saying the same thing.
Modified
Philosopher
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2006
- Messages
- 6,985
Yes, the Christian one. Sects that don't preach eternal torture are rare. Even those friendly Catholics I grew up with did so, though they didn't seem to relish in it the way the Protestants did.
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
Don't hold your breath.
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2006
- Messages
- 36,371
I disagree with you completely - I agree with Roger that most christians know deep down it's complete baloney. It's great when guys have scored a goal and thank their sky-daddy for helping them, despite that being the absolute antithesis of what claim to believe.
The best example I ever saw was Darren Beadman, when he got off Saintly after winning the Melbourne Cup. "I love Jesus... Jesus is so great... Jesus looks after me on the racetrack..." He just about came in his pants describing how Jesus loved his career so much.
Yeah, your god wants you to win a horse race.
Horse ****, more like.
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
That's as ridiculous as saying that most atheists deep down believe there is a god but don't want to admit it.
You do your cause no good when you presume to know the minds of others.
arthwollipot
Limerick Purist
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2009
- Messages
- 23,741
Speaking of easier and more comfortable, it seems to me like actually the FAR easier and more comfortable way out is to think that:
1. there's some magical imaginary friend that can do stuff on your behalf, so you don't have to lift a finger yourself.
I remember some 2 months after grandma had died of brain cancer, some 'friend' of her calls to say "I prayed for her." And all I could think, "but offering to actually help, as in, at least hop on a train and visit her at the hospital, was presumably too much effort, eh?" I didn't actually SAY it, and I kinda regret not actually saying it. But yeah, just "I prayed for her/you/them/whatever" and you can feel good about yourself just as if you had actually DONE something to help.
Must be nice having an imaginary friend that does stuff for you, so you don't have to...
2. no matter how awful you've been, you can just ask really nicely and your imaginary friend forgives everything. You don't even have to ask for forgiveness from the actual people wronged, much less do any reparations. Just ask Jesus to forgive you, that's the only one who matters. Real people don't.
3. your imaginary friend actually justifies your being awful. The fun part about making up your own imaginary friend, is that he likes the same things you like, and hates the same things and PEOPLE you hate. So you don't even have to reconsider whether some prejudice or actual harm was warranted. Your imaginary friend already says he hates them too and they deserve even worse.
4. your imaginary friend has easy solutions for everything, that even an idiot can understand (and usually idiots are the only ones who do.) Like, maybe raise taxes a couple of cents for an emergency relief fund for when the next tsunami or flood happens? Nah, your imaginary friend says it's the gays and muslims that caused it. Just forbid those and voila, no need for any disaster relief. Worried about peak oil, global warming, etc? Just need to pray and your imaginary friend will just pull more oil out of his ass, and cool the planet too, 'cause he loves you. Etc.
1. there's some magical imaginary friend that can do stuff on your behalf, so you don't have to lift a finger yourself.
I remember some 2 months after grandma had died of brain cancer, some 'friend' of her calls to say "I prayed for her." And all I could think, "but offering to actually help, as in, at least hop on a train and visit her at the hospital, was presumably too much effort, eh?" I didn't actually SAY it, and I kinda regret not actually saying it. But yeah, just "I prayed for her/you/them/whatever" and you can feel good about yourself just as if you had actually DONE something to help.
Must be nice having an imaginary friend that does stuff for you, so you don't have to...
2. no matter how awful you've been, you can just ask really nicely and your imaginary friend forgives everything. You don't even have to ask for forgiveness from the actual people wronged, much less do any reparations. Just ask Jesus to forgive you, that's the only one who matters. Real people don't.
3. your imaginary friend actually justifies your being awful. The fun part about making up your own imaginary friend, is that he likes the same things you like, and hates the same things and PEOPLE you hate. So you don't even have to reconsider whether some prejudice or actual harm was warranted. Your imaginary friend already says he hates them too and they deserve even worse.
4. your imaginary friend has easy solutions for everything, that even an idiot can understand (and usually idiots are the only ones who do.) Like, maybe raise taxes a couple of cents for an emergency relief fund for when the next tsunami or flood happens? Nah, your imaginary friend says it's the gays and muslims that caused it. Just forbid those and voila, no need for any disaster relief. Worried about peak oil, global warming, etc? Just need to pray and your imaginary friend will just pull more oil out of his ass, and cool the planet too, 'cause he loves you. Etc.
Just on this - you objected to my "hypothetical" before so I posted this:
So fine I will try to remember not to use the 3 year old raped by soldiers and then killed, I will try to remember to use the 3 year old, kidnapped, gang raped and beheaded because that obviously makes a big difference to your spirituality. Sorry my hypothetical wasn't horrendous enough for your tastes.
So I'll repost my original post using the real world event:
I know from what you have posted in the past that it means when you read of a 3 year old kidnapped, gang raped and beheaded you can just say "she's learning a lesson she needs to learn and we should be happy about that".
Better?
Last edited:
Scorpian doesn't believe in a hell, apart from the one we live in today in which 3 year olds are kidnapped, gang raped and beheaded because their spirit needed to learn a lesson.
There isn't a single "Christian" god... they are quite a few different versions of gods those that call themselves "Christian" believe in.
Cosmic Yak
Philosopher
Scorpion, are you actually going to respond to any of this? You started this thread, yet you seem curiously uninterested in getting answers to your questions, or in commenting on the points that have been raised here.
Loss Leader
I would save the receptionist., Moderator
Even if there are "no atheists in foxholes," I don't see that as a serious expression of faith. It's much better explained as a fantasy that the brain uses to protect the ego.
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
I did say that the theory I made up is ridiculous.