Are atheists too complacent?

[The Atheist]

I begrudge nobody the right to believe whatever brings them community and comfort.

Same here. My best mate used faith to cope when his kid got killed in a jetski crash at age 20.

As long as theists keep their faith to themselves, I don't even notice them. It's when they try to force their pathetic beliefs on everyone else I object. Pretty well every sensible "liberal" legislation in my life has been opposed by theists: abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage... you name it, they'll be anti.

 

[HotRodDeluxe]

Atheists seem to assume that people who believe in God and an afterlife are mentally weak and gullible. Thereby assuming intellectual superiority over them.

Yes, many do for various reasons. For example, I debate, and have debated many apologists on several fora, and I find many atheists (myself included) become somewhat frustrated by the banality of most responses. This, after a time, can develop into a feeling of contempt. I have been looking for a religious apologist who does not employ condescension, diversion, evasion, ad hominem, questionable semantics games and ridicule as a tactical repertoire, however, I have not found one, and this has often led me to believe (erroneously, I might add) that they are indeed weak minded and gullible.

But have they considered what it means to really believe you are answerable to a higher power in everything you do?

Well, many atheists I know were once religious themselves, so yes, I'd say that many have. How much consideration these individuals gave to the notion is another matter.

Is it not easier and more comfortable to believe death brings oblivion, than to believe you are held accountable in an eternal afterlife?

Is it? The thought of dying scares the living **** out of me and I fully embraced the concept of an afterlife when I was religious. Yet as I was leaving faith behind owing to the study of history and philosophy, I found it somewhat difficult to shed such a comforting belief system. So, I would state 'not in my experience'.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

I am quite content to let this thread roll on without me, Its already on page three with atheist interacting with each other. I am happy just to read it.

Has it answered any of your questions? Do the atheists here seem complacent to you? Do they seem less moral because of their lack of belief in an afterlife?

 

[bruto]

Well, Scorpion should realize that he's answered his own question. He's willing to sit back and not contribute, while confidently declaring that what appears as evil in the world will all come out right in the end. If you were looking to define complacency you could do worse than just to quote him.

 

[Foster Zygote]

I find Darat's world view is depressing."

Well you're certainly entitled to your own opinion on subjective matters. I find the notion that a three-year-old being gang-raped and decapitated is somehow an integral part of an omnipotent agency's divine plan to be far more depressing.

I do not spend my time thinking about horrible things.

You clearly don't want to think about the fact that the crime Darat referenced requires you to posit a divine plan in which a three-year-old needs to be "taught a lesson" in such a horrific manner. But it still seems to me that if you must put such things out of mind that you are having difficulty reconciling these facts with your notion of a benevolent god with a plan for the greater good.

I uphold the view that in the eternal journey we are on everything eventually works out for the ultimate good.

And I am of an equal conviction that that is an appalling rationalization intended to excuse an omnipotent deity from the horrors that it allows to happen. I never want to learn of such a horror and then assure myself that it's actually a good thing that it happened - in the long run.

 

[Butter!]

I don't even consider myself an atheist (risky thing to say here! jk ). I have zero clue what the true spiritual nature of the universe is, and I have zero interest in discussing it. I don't think theists are stupid and gullible, but I do think they can be very annoying. I just really don't want to hear about somebody's religion in detail, especially if they're worked up about the topic. It's like someone going on about your sex life, I just don't care. Shut up.

 

[Foster Zygote]

I cannot say more without dragging this thread into another discussion about my beliefs.

This seems to imply that you prefer to remain immune to the scrutiny to which you subject atheists. You want to criticize without being criticized. That hardly seems fair.

 

[Foster Zygote]

I never said such horrible events are good.

Yes, you did. You said "everything eventually works out for the ultimate good".

That implies that your deity has the omnipotence to cause everything it wants to happen to come to pass, that everything is part of its Divine Plan™, and that it decided that for the ultimate good to come to pass, a tiny innocent child had to die horrifically.

That also implies that this agency would have the power to devise a plan in which that same three-year-old was raised in a loving family with safety and security, and grew up to be a beloved great-grandmother who died peacefully after a long, joyous life.

It appears to me that this is really bothering you - that this is why you object to Darat bringing it up.

 

[Pope130]

I don't even consider myself an atheist (risky thing to say here! jk ). I have zero clue what the true spiritual nature of the universe is, and I have zero interest in discussing it. I don't think theists are stupid and gullible, but I do think they can be very annoying. I just really don't want to hear about somebody's religion in detail, especially if they're worked up about the topic. It's like someone going on about your sex life, I just don't care. Shut up.

I used to work in a gun shop that had a sign on the wall that said:
"For the safety and comfort of all patrons and staff, customers are requested to keep their religion holstered with the safety on."

I think that's a good general rule in polite society.

 

[Loss Leader]

I always found the idea of rules lawyering God stupid,

As do I.

although it suggests the rules are arbitrary.

They definitely are. Why does the bible spend a chapter detailing which birds you can eat?

You clearly don't want to think about the fact that the crime Darat referenced requires you to posit a divine plan in which a three-year-old needs to be "taught a lesson" in such a horrific manner. But it still seems to me that if you must put such things out of mind that you are having difficulty reconciling these facts with your notion of a benevolent god with a plan for the greater good.

This is why I don't even like granting the existence of a god, however defined. Once you've got an omniscient being, he automatically wins every argument. Maybe we can't see or rationalize how some event is for the greater good, says the theist, but if we knew all that god knows then it would become readily apparent. We cannot possibly know what the greater good is, as defined by this god, and we certainly cannot predict all future events well enough to see how one action contributes to it.

As for the "taught a lesson" part, I don't know what the heck that is. I'm sure Scorpion has said it but I can't reconcile it with the concept of a greater good. The two things appear to contradict each other.

 

[bruto]

This seems to imply that you prefer to remain immune to the scrutiny to which you subject atheists. You want to criticize without being criticized. That hardly seems fair.

Of course it's not fair. Let others debate their points of view, but mine is fine as is. One searches for a word to describe that attitude...oh wait. How about "complacency?"

 

[Scorpion]

This seems to imply that you prefer to remain immune to the scrutiny to which you subject atheists. You want to criticize without being criticized. That hardly seems fair.

I have a thread called 'scorpion's spiritualism' and I found out on that thread I cannot win a debate about my beliefs here, so I gave up. I do not need to repeat the experience on this thread. I realize I am not as intellectual or as educated as some of the people who post here. But I still think I am basically right about most of what I believe.

 

[Foster Zygote]

I have a thread called 'scorpion's spiritualism' and I found out on that thread I cannot win a debate about my beliefs here, so I gave up.

Sorry, but this is still "here".

You've clearly indicated that you are contrasting the position of atheism with your own spiritual beliefs, so please don't assume that you can set rules that proscribe equal critical analysis of your own views. You can't say, "let me criticize your position, but mine is off the table".

 

[Foster Zygote]

Of course it's not fair. Let others debate their points of view, but mine is fine as is. One searches for a word to describe that attitude...oh wait. How about "complacency?"

Works for me.

 

[Scorpion]

Yes, you did. You said "everything eventually works out for the ultimate good".

That implies that your deity has the omnipotence to cause everything it wants to happen to come to pass, that everything is part of its Divine Plan™, and that it decided that for the ultimate good to come to pass, a tiny innocent child had to die horrifically.

That also implies that this agency would have the power to devise a plan in which that same three-year-old was raised in a loving family with safety and security, and grew up to be a beloved great-grandmother who died peacefully after a long, joyous life.

It appears to me that this is really bothering you - that this is why you object to Darat bringing it up.

I try to talk about spiritual ideas, and it gets reduced to my having to try and justify Hitler and child murders.

When I talk about everything working out for the ultimate good, I am talking about humanity raising itself to a higher state of spiritual evolution by actions, and the consequences. That may take hundreds, or even thousands of incarnations. This may take a million years, but ultimately humanity will rise above suffering. We will then proceed into a higher realm of existence as immortals. One family of enlightened souls.

I do not dwell upon horrible things. They will pass.

 

[smartcooky]

I try to talk about spiritual ideas, and it gets reduced to my having to try and justify Hitler and child murders.

...and you always will so long as you continue to claim your love and respect for a god who, if it really exists, is a ruthless, uncaring, cold blooded murderer.

 

[abaddon]

I try to talk about spiritual ideas, and it gets reduced to my having to try and justify Hitler and child murders.

And you promptly actually provide your justification for Hitler and all manner of abuse. Because you really believe such things are all part of a plan to achieve ultimate good and are thus necessary. Furthermore, you claim that the victims suffering is also good since the victims will learn something critically important for their "spiritual" development from said suffering. We know this because YOU TOLD US SO.

When I talk about everything working out for the ultimate good, I am talking about humanity raising itself to a higher state of spiritual evolution by actions, and the consequences.

And that is why you end up supporting Hitler and rape and murder. Both the perpetrators and the victims learn something important from that experience. You also told us that victims of child rape deserve it because they did something in a previous life.

That may take hundreds, or even thousands of incarnations. This may take a million years, but ultimately humanity will rise above suffering. We will then proceed into a higher realm of existence as immortals. One family of enlightened souls.

BS lacking any evidence.

I do not dwell upon horrible things. They will pass.

And that is why your beliefs are vile.

 

[The Atheist]

This may take a million years, but ultimately humanity will rise above suffering. We will then proceed into a higher realm of existence as immortals. One family of enlightened souls.

Thanks for that - a beautiful piece of work.

But atheists are the bad, immoral people...

It must be very comforting to know that you don't need to worry about atrocities committed on earth, because a sky-fairy is going wave its magic wand and make it all better, and make it so much better the little kiddies can forget about being raped/starved/tortured to death.

Yay for Jesus!

 

[abaddon]

Thanks for that - a beautiful piece of work.

But atheists are the bad, immoral people...

It must be very comforting to know that you don't need to worry about atrocities committed on earth, because a sky-fairy is going wave its magic wand and make it all better, and make it so much better the little kiddies can forget about being raped/starved/tortured to death.

Yay for Jesus!

And that is the problem with Scorpion's crap.

He has told us that if some random woman is raped and murdered, then that is because she did something in a past life that REQUIRES that she suffer from it in the cause of learning....something for her next life.

That is why Scorpion does not care about suffering. Of anyone. He has told us that he regards it as necessary to reach the "ultimate good" which he also fails to specify.

Dunno about you or anyone else in this thread, but that is flat out evil.

 

[Thor 2]

And that is the problem with Scorpion's crap.

He has told us that if some random woman is raped and murdered, then that is because she did something in a past life that REQUIRES that she suffer from it in the cause of learning....something for her next life.

That is why Scorpion does not care about suffering. Of anyone. He has told us that he regards it as necessary to reach the "ultimate good" which he also fails to specify.

Dunno about you or anyone else in this thread, but that is flat out evil.

"Scorpions Crap" ..... distinctly put.

Perhaps we could insert the word "contradictory" in there also. As illustrated by the following excerpt from previous post by Scorpion:

When I talk about everything working out for the ultimate good, I am talking about humanity raising itself to a higher state of spiritual evolution by actions, and the consequences. That may take hundreds, or even thousands of incarnations. This may take a million years, but ultimately humanity will rise above suffering. We will then proceed into a higher realm of existence as immortals. One family of enlightened souls.

The illustration is of the stark contradiction pointed out before (and never answered by Scorpion), that the notion humanity is becoming nicer, contradicts the idea that the vileness of humanity is necessary, to meet out the suffering needed to shape the souls.

I don't expect an answer to this question this time either.