Satanic Sculpture at Illinois Statehouse.

[TragicMonkey]

See, that's the thing: things are so ******* bad out there that any time I see something like this, I just want to scream 'Why you gotta make things worse???'

The Satanic Temple maintains the moral and legal high ground. A little tweaking and they could win over the bystanders/fence sitters. But no: they choose, despite occupying the high ground, to insure that the chasm is a little wider. That winning people over is just a little less tenable.

Not to go full-on Bill and Ted, but for ****'s sake, Be Excellent to Each Other. Work towards fixing the goddamned problem, not insuring it will continue

I've heard the same argument given for why pride parades shouldn't happen. Everybody gets along best so long as we shut up and don't make waves and don't draw attention to our existence. If we live in apologetic silence then we may be graciously tolerated, if the others feel generous.

Screw that.

 

[JoeMorgue]

See, that's the thing: things are so ******* bad out there that any time I see something like this, I just want to scream 'Why you gotta make things worse???'

"Oh my God black people in the 60s can you not scream so loud when the hoses hit you? Why you gotta make things worse?"

 

[autumn1971]

The short answer is obvious: take the government out of the OP and there is no OP. Take the government out of the responses and there are no responses.

The longer answer follows.

The government did the right thing because after years of pushing for it they are in some cases but notably not all being forced to recognize the constitutional requirement to do so. There are therefore two points being addressed (note that my comments are directed specifically to TST and not others since TST has an explicit purpose that includes this activism):

First: ensure that government compliance becomes the norm and not the exception by continuing to exercise it.


Second: assist with the first by making it plain to the majority religion that non-majority-religion participation in such displays are legal, moral, and inevitable.

Allow me a crude analogy: It is legal but inappropriate for anyone to fart in an elevator, but if the police are called to eject only atheists who fart there while celebrating the Christians who continue to do it, and moreover the larger Christian community continues to applaud elevator-farting Christians while denouncing elevator-farting atheists, then it is not I who am being dickish when I go into a crowded elevator specifically with the intent to fart there.

Thread won.

These displays are meant, in most cases, as a territorial marker, not a celebratory event.

There actually exist others, and placing. your “celebratory” display is an act of aggression proven by how hard the dominant culture fights against any tiny evidence of the existence of a different world-view .

 

[Thermal]

The biggest problem I have with your point is that you have made it abundantly clear that you have no respect for this group or any point they may wish to make. Calling them devil dudes and referring to their display as handy snaky thingy - dripping with disdain. So when you say you value their opinion just not the timing I have a hard time believing you.

The next problem I have with your argument is complaining about the timing. You remind me of the people who complain about NFL players taking a knee. "Of course they have the right to quietly and politely protest" just not during my football game because I enjoy football damnit.....Why on earth would you try to make a point/social impact while no one is watching/paying attention?

The reason I don't agree with you is because you have no respect for the group and think they are a bunch of clowns. I see the message for what it is.

You are misreading. I support these guys and their mission wholeheartedly, and without reservation. I call them devil dudes because they say themselves that they don't even believe in satan, so it's a put on. I'm laughing along with them.

There is a huge temptation to project meanings and agendas onto other posters. Basically thinking 'oh, he's one of them. I got his number'. Then you get ten pages of talking past each other.

For the umpteenth time, I like these guys and support what they do. I think they could do it without the pokes in the eye and achieve a better end.

 

[Thermal]

I've heard the same argument given for why pride parades shouldn't happen. Everybody gets along best so long as we shut up and don't make waves and don't draw attention to our existence. If we live in apologetic silence then we may be graciously tolerated, if the others feel generous.

Screw that.

No.

You're doing it, too. Saying 'oh I heard an argument along these lines before...'

Screw that.

For the umpteenth time, I encourage these cats making waves. These particular waves were pointlessly stupid and divisive, to no ends. They should raise hell. This wasn't raising hell. It was just pissing on others.

 

[Thermal]

"Oh my God black people in the 60s can you not scream so loud when the hoses hit you? Why you gotta make things worse?"

Totally analogous here. Who are our beaten minorities in this scenario again?

Nevermind. You're just engaging in alternative universe fan fic, I forgot that's kind of your thing.

 

[TragicMonkey]

No.

You're doing it, too. Saying 'oh I heard an argument along these lines before...'

Screw that.

For the umpteenth time, I encourage these cats making waves. These particular waves were pointlessly stupid and divisive, to no ends. They should raise hell. This wasn't raising hell. It was just pissing on others.

But your last paragraph is exactly the argument you say it's not. You have decided who can say what and where based on what you feel about their message, intentions, and the results. You don't feel like you're making the same argument as the enemy because you don't feel that you are the enemy; but you're speaking the same way about the same things. If someone else were saying what you're saying you could see that.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Totally analogous here. Who are our beaten minorities in this scenario again?

Nevermind. You're just engaging in alternative universe fan fic, I forgot that's kind of your thing.

Sorry you only get one flounce. You already stopped talking to me.

 

[Thermal]

But your last paragraph is exactly the argument you say it's not. You have decided who can say what and where based on what you feel about their message, intentions, and the results. You don't feel like you're making the same argument as the enemy because you don't feel that you are the enemy; but you're speaking the same way about the same things. If someone else were saying what you're saying you could see that.

No no no no no no.

I am always open to an option #3 or 4. You guys are interpreting this as a false dichotomy.

Look at your dismissal above. You quite literally say that a positive message is ideologically in line with people protesting pride parades. You quite literally say inclusiveness is off the menu. There can only be strife.

You're not stupid, TM. Read your comment again 'as if someone else was making it'

 

[Elagabalus]

At this point, maybe you should agree to disagree? potato ... potato?

 

[kali1137]

For the umpteenth time, I like these guys and support what they do. I think they could do it without the pokes in the eye and achieve a better end.

You are saying - I support these guys sending a message, just not this one cause they are poo pooing all over this holiday I like. Either that or you are arguing that your support what they do but only when you agree with it.

I am glad that christians are so supportive and well behaved there in NJ. Because like the others here have stated, that hasn't been my experience here in PA either.

 

[Thermal]

Sorry you only get one flounce. You already stopped talking to me.

I'm still talking to you baby. You gave me no choice, remember? With that open minded spirit of discussion you endorese, the choices were drop it, flounce, or admit I am wrong.

Its like long form facebook here

 

[Elagabalus]

You are saying - I support these guys sending a message, just not this one cause they are poo pooing all over this holiday I like. Either that or you are arguing that your support what they do but only when you agree with it.

I am glad that christians are so supportive and well behaved there in NJ. Because like the others here have stated, that hasn't been my experience here in PA either.

I believe thermal is of the opinion that one "should pick one's battles". And he is content that it is "like, just his opinion, man".

 

[kali1137]

I believe thermal is of the opinion that one "should pick one's battles". And he is content that it is "like, just his opinion, man".

Groovy

 

[Thermal]

You are saying - I support these guys sending a message, just not this one cause they are poo pooing all over this holiday I like. Either that or you are arguing that your support what they do but only when you agree with it.

I am glad that christians are so supportive and well behaved there in NJ. Because like the others here have stated, that hasn't been my experience here in PA either.

Do you see what you just did? I just showed you where your interpretation of my posts was way out in left field, and how do you respond? You ignore that, change the subject and freewheel complain about something else that you think suits the narrative

Eleven. Freaking. Pages.

 

[Dancing David]

Sorry folks the dominant culture of xians is often rude and dismissive of minority views, they seek actively to force their POV on those who don't share it.
they encourage people who have gay children to kick them out of the house, etc...

Oh poor babies they have to tolerate a hand with an apple and a snake

 

[Thermal]

I believe thermal is of the opinion that one "should pick one's battles". And he is content that it is "like, just his opinion, man".

Thermal is of the opinion that there is a time and place for battles, which are pretty frequent, and a time and place for a cease fire, which is pretty rare. And of course that is just my opinion

Eta: and have a legit point to your battles, not just shooting random bystanders

 

[Thermal]

Sorry folks the dominant culture of xians is often rude and dismissive of minority views, they seek actively to force their POV on those who don't share it.
they encourage people who have gay children to kick them out of the house, etc...

Oh poor babies they have to tolerate a hand with an apple and a snake

Too easy

 

[kali1137]

Do you see what you just did? I just showed you where your interpretation of my posts was way out in left field, and how do you respond? You ignore that, change the subject and freewheel complain about something else that you think suits the narrative

Eleven. Freaking. Pages.

This is the last reply because you absolutely refuse to admit that you may be wrong in your interpretation of what they are doing. And my understanding of what your point is will clearly always be wrong because no one else in this thread can be right but you. You are just going to keep insisting that we are all purposely?? misinterpreting what you are saying.

And I did not freewheel complain, you asked about others experiences with christians in an earlier post. But I guess if I didn't quote it, it didn't happen.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Let's just all agree that whatever Thermal's point is we all support it and agree with him 100%, but it's rude of him to post about it here and does his cause more harm than good.

Does that satisfy everyone? If not, why not? I'm actually making what I'd otherwise call a point if it weren't as blunt as a sledgehammer.