Elizabeth Warren Ancestry Thread

[Vixen]

I disagree. First, 6+ generations back start to make the Cherokee claim more difficult to support. Second, it creates issues about why they would even suspect heritage that many generations back.

A US friend of mine believes she has Native American in her family simply on the basis that one or two members have sleek black hair.

Beliefs are strong. People act on them and identify with them.

 

[Vixen]

I'd get fired, if I checked the Native American box on an application for the Minority Faculty Directory. That falls in the same category as wiping a private server that contained classified info.

Nonsense.

The whole point of such questions is that YOU are the one who defines your own identity. Otherwise it would not be you ticking the box.

 

[Vixen]

The Warren DNA test is the same as the Dukakis in a tank helmet, or Dukakis saying he wouldn't execute a guy who killed his wife.

She knowingly put out a report that says she is .039 to 1.5% Native (north or south) American. Talk about taking a dump in a bowl and calling it an ice cream sundae...

It's eyebrow raising at first sight. However, if she has grown up believing the family Native American story, then it's not unreasonable to identify as such.

Suppose someone is adopted as a child into a family of any culture. Is that kid denied being allowed to identify with that culture?

Is Warren supposed to draw stripes on her face and go around whooping in a rain dance?

 

[phiwum]

The odds that an unadmixed Native American from S. America somehow made it to the Oklahoma area 6 to 10 generations ago is extremely unlikely. Can you think of a scenario in which a pure Incan or other pure S. American native could have been in the area that Warren's ancestors were living in the early 1800's? The geneticist specifically said that "Warren's Native American ancestry 'falls between' Canadian and Mexican indigenous population 'as would be expected for Native American ancestry deriving from the lower 48 states of the United States'".

Absolutely agree, but that has nothing to do with whether the geneticist said the DNA evidence ruled out South America. You're bringing in additional argument from where we started.

I was simply pointing out that your argument as stated was misleading. Consistency with North American tribes does not entail that it is inconsistent with South American tribes.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

In any case, the Cherokee Nation decides who is a Cherokee and who is not. Fauxcahontas is free to go over there and knock on the door and make her claim. If she does, I hope she takes a camera crew, because it should be a hoot.

And what would that claim be? (Careful, you must use Sen. Warren's own words.)

 

[Vixen]

It feels like stolen valor.
They don't wear the uniform for job prospects, they wear if for admiration from people ignorant of military continuity. When called on it, they come up with fake units or bases that they trained at.

How many people do you think asked Warren what tribe she was from, when they saw her listed as a minority? Do you think she said, 'oh I just self identify as Native American.'? or do you think she said 'Cherokee'?

It's not the same as wearing fake medals as an act of deception. Normally, people who do that are usually sadly deluded, rather than bad.

People claim to be Napoleon and sincerely believe they are.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

Watching the mental gymnastics critical thinking skills of some Warren supporters here is entertaining informative and thought-provoking; I apparently have much to learn.

...you mean.

 

[xjx388]

No, the irony is in you labeling Warren a liar without considering any other possibility,

The facts are indisputable. Warren misrepresented her minority status in the directories and checked off boxes indicating her Native American status on university forms.

You can continue to nanny-nanny-boo-boo me, but you cannot dispute those basic facts. Have fun, I guess.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

The goal of this fight is to relegate the discussion about Warren to one issue from years ago. When she checked a box on a form that asked about her ancestry and indicated that she wasn't pure white girl.

The right wing in America doesn't want to discuss Warren's experience, qualifications or policies. They want all discussion of her to be nothing but name calling.

Meanwhile they are doing their best to gut the CFPB that Warren helped create Muzzling an agency that goes after financial institutions that cheat consumers. One that actually works for the little guy instead of just the fat cats.

And Bingo was his name-o.

 

[Vixen]

This ain't that hard.

Democrats imagine how you would feel if you opened a Soul Food cookbook right now and saw a recipe from Donald Trump in it. Imagine how okay you would be with it. Imagine how little or big of a deal you feel it is.

That's how you should feel now. Or you can dig into defending the tribe and give me special pleadings why it would be different. I think I'll probably get more of the latter.

Oh, pur-leeze. Nobody gets upset over a poxy cookbook.

 

[Giordano]

Agreed. Earlier this morning I was looking a bit into this same issue. I found a source that claimed a generation length to be ~25 years.

25 x 6 = 150
25 x 10 = 250

2018 - 150 = 1868
2018 - 250 = 1768

So according to Warren's report the native American DNA was introduced between 1768 and 1868. Now we just need to find out if Warren's descendants were in America between those periods. I haven't yet seen a source for that information, and would welcome anybody providing it.

I doubt in practice one can follow all the lineages in her family back that far to establish or deny it. Remember everyone has 4 grandparents, 8 great grandparents, etc. And all would have to be tracked down.

In fact some Native Americans were transported to Europe (for exhibition and other purposes) as early as the first Columbus trip. But I doubt they would have met carnally with Warren's ancestors in Europe.

 

[Vixen]

Anyone else think it's odd Warren would insist on her ethnicity being changed from white to listed as NA at two universities, then later in life continuing to list herself as white? Did her ethnicity change during that time, then change back?

No, but her self-perception might have.

 

[Stacyhs]

Just don't proudly descend from Confederate soldiers. They were bad.

Actually I do proudly descend from two Confederate soldiers. One died at the Battle of Wilson's Creek in 1861, the other survived the war. Do I want the Confederate flag flying over capitol grounds? No. I think it's disrespectful to A-Americans. But I am certainly not ashamed of my two g-great grandfathers.

 

[xjx388]

Actually I do proudly descend from two Confederate soldiers. One died at the Battle of Wilson's Creek in 1861, the other survived the war. Do I want the Confederate flag flying over capitol grounds? No. I think it's disrespectful to A-Americans. But I am certainly not ashamed of my two g-great grandfathers.

Maybe you can explain this "pride of ancestors" thing? What is it that makes you proud to have historically significant ancestors? James Buchannan is in my family tree, should I be proud to have an President in my familial ranks (ok, maybe not that one! )? How does that affect me?

I can see it as being a neat bit of family lore but beyond that, what? It says nothing about me whatsoever so what do I have to be proud of?

 

[Meadmaker]

Actually I do proudly descend from two Confederate soldiers. One died at the Battle of Wilson's Creek in 1861, the other survived the war. Do I want the Confederate flag flying over capitol grounds? No. I think it's disrespectful to A-Americans. But I am certainly not ashamed of my two g-great grandfathers.

Interesting. My one Confederate soldier ancestor also fought at Wilson's Creek. He fared better than yours. He was captured, though, at Pea Ridge.

 

[wareyin]

Why does it have to be zero or all? Can't some of the "spin" be correct and some be incorrect? Is it possible -- and, bear with me here -- that both sides have some points to make on this issue?

Heresy, I know.

It doesn't have to be, but in this case it is. Again, despite some heavy research there is zero evidence that Warren spoke publicly about NA Ancestry before her political opponent brought it up, and there is evidence against the claim that Warren claimed to be NA to get her job or gain any advantage whatsoever on her job. This is not partisan spin, this is from non-biased sources like Politifact and (as previously cited by River) The Boston Globe.

In contrast, Republicans are claiming that Warren falsely claimed NA status, that she is the one who brought it up in the political realm, and that she used her NA status to gain some sort of advantage in her career. JoeMorgue has repeated at least one of these claims, as well as the ones about the cookbook somehow being relevant.

Even people convinced of their own independence can be fooled by bad information. Heresy?

 

[johnny karate]

The facts are indisputable. Warren misrepresented her minority status in the directories and checked off boxes indicating her Native American status on university forms.

It's not possible that due to her family lore Warren actually believed those things? The only possibility is that she willfully and maliciously misrepresented herself?

You can continue to nanny-nanny-boo-boo me, but you cannot dispute those basic facts. Have fun, I guess.

You're merely being held to your own standards.

I can imagine your discomfort, because they're crap standards.

 

[wareyin]

Maybe you can explain this "pride of ancestors" thing? What is it that makes you proud to have historically significant ancestors? James Buchannan is in my family tree, should I be proud to have an President in my familial ranks (ok, maybe not that one! )? How does that affect me?

I can see it as being a neat bit of family lore but beyond that, what? It says nothing about me whatsoever so what do I have to be proud of?

You may not get it, but I assure you it is a real thing. Have you seriously never seen people claiming Irish ancestry on St Patrick's Day? Or been to a Scottish Highland Games?

 

[Giordano]

The facts are indisputable. Warren misrepresented her minority status in the directories and checked off boxes indicating her Native American status on university forms.
You can continue to nanny-nanny-boo-boo me, but you cannot dispute those basic facts. Have fun, I guess.

Simply not true. Her family believed that they had Native American ancestry and were proud of it. Senator Warren grew up with that understanding, just as we all generally accept what we learn from our families about our family's background and ancestry. How much actual proof of what you believe about your family's origins do you have? Or is much of it just stories you've heard?

So Warren was proud of Native American ancestry without knowing details, because no one in her family really had many details. And she, and her family story, was fully correct on DNA testing! Somehow the family story included the idea that the Native American ancestry was Cherokee. Warren repeated that part. Well, I think the DNA test does not have the resolution to confirm or deny that part (I could be wrong).

But again, Warren legitimately claimed a link to a historic ancestry equivalent to that many others have made to other historic ancestries. It is a common human source of pride.

And at my university (at least) there is no minimum % that if you go below you cannot check off a particular ancestry box. It is simply how you identify yourself.

These are the facts.

 

[citizenzen]

I doubt in practice one can follow all the lineages in her family back that far to establish or deny it. Remember everyone has 4 grandparents, 8 great grandparents, etc. And all would have to be tracked down.

In fact some Native Americans were transported to Europe (for exhibition and other purposes) as early as the first Columbus trip. But I doubt they would have met carnally with Warren's ancestors in Europe.

I agree with your points. However, it seems from Warren's family lore that they were connecting directly to that Native American ancestor.

If her descendants were in America in the period between 1786-1868 it could help to corroborate that lore, but it's not the only explanation as to how she obtained that DNA.