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Atheists destroy churches, attack the faithful

The Big Dog said:
Yes, I am well aware of what it means. It would appear that a driving force of the officially atheist state is to force people to become atheists.
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No, that's precisely NOT what they said. They were very clear in their goal: Sinicization - forcing religions to be CHINESE, i.e. follow the Communist Party rules. Nowhere did they state that it was the Atheist Party of China. It's the Communist Party of China.

As noted above, it is a defining characteristic of such atheists states. Atheist state and pogroms go hand in hand, take a look at the USSR and gozathiesm.
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Oh you like to rewrite history? Like to be deliberately selective? The Orthodox Church thrived in the USSR because it played along with the ruling hierarchy, whether that was very Christian Tsars or the mildly atheist Kommissars. In turn, the ruling parties used the church to subdue the masses. Atheism?? Like Donny's tax-breaks and jobs-for-Americans, great propaganda, not reality.

Also, for the majority of the existence of the USSR it was ruled not by atheists but by the god-in-human-form-worshippers of Stalin. Heaven help you if Stalin turned his face from you. Not only did you disappear, you got airbrushed out of photos like Donny's inauguration crowd gaps. It was a personality cult...just like you see today with Trumpites. They don't worship the god you believe in; they worship Trump, and he worships himself.
 
Norman Alexander said:
No, that's precisely NOT what they said. They were very clear in their goal: Sinicization - forcing religions to be CHINESE, i.e. follow the Communist Party rules. Nowhere did they state that it was the Atheist Party of China. It's the Communist Party of China.

Oh you like to rewrite history? Like to be deliberately selective? The Orthodox Church thrived in the USSR because it played along with the ruling hierarchy, whether that was very Christian Tsars or the mildly atheist Kommissars. In turn, the ruling parties used the church to subdue the masses. Atheism?? Like Donny's tax-breaks and jobs-for-Americans, great propaganda, not reality.

Also, for the majority of the existence of the USSR it was ruled not by atheists but by the god-in-human-form-worshippers of Stalin. Heaven help you if Stalin turned his face from you. Not only did you disappear, you got airbrushed out of photos like Donny's inauguration crowd gaps. It was a personality cult...just like you see today with Trumpites. They don't worship the god you believe in; they worship Trump, and he worships himself.
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Wait, wait, wait... you think that Sinicization means follow the communist party lead? That is absurd.

The Orthodox religion “thrived” in between episodes of mass murder?

Little background for you

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union
 
The Big Dog said:
State Sponsored atheism rears its ugly head again.
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Excellent, I'd vote for that.

I'd even be advocating christian-conversion camps and therapy. Nobody's ever tried anything like that, so who know - it might even work. If people are stupid enough to believe in invisible fairies, they'll believe anything.

Given christians' 2000-year history of causing violence against non-christians, the Chinese are behaving quite sensibly. Cut the problem off at the root.

The Big Dog said:
Appalling.
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Damn right it is. What a waste - they could be selling them.
 
The Big Dog said:
Wait, wait, wait... you think that Sinicization means follow the communist party lead? That is absurd.
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Uh...it's what it means. Cultural imperialism. Like America exports its culture globally.

The Orthodox religion “thrived” in between episodes of mass murder?

Little background for you

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union
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More for you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Soviet_Union

The Nazi attack on the Soviet Union in 1941 induced Stalin to enlist the Russian Orthodox Church as an ally to arouse Russian patriotism against foreign aggression. Russian Orthodox religious life experienced a revival: thousands of churches were reopened; there were 22,000 by the time Nikita Khrushchev came to power. The regime permitted religious publications, and church membership grew.
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The Atheist said:
Excellent, I'd vote for that.

I'd even be advocating christian-conversion camps and therapy. Nobody's ever tried anything like that, so who know - it might even work. If people are stupid enough to believe in invisible fairies, they'll believe anything.

Given christians' 2000-year history of causing violence against non-christians, the Chinese are behaving quite sensibly. Cut the problem off at the root.



Damn right it is. What a waste - they could be selling them.
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Bingo, that is the type of defense of this atheist policy that I expected from the atheists!
 
Norman Alexander said:
Uh...it's what it means. Cultural imperialism. Like America exports its culture globally.

More for you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Soviet_Union
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But I was told it “thrived”. Why would they have to reopen churches if they were thriving? Hmm, that is a puzzler.

I guess they really “thrived” under Nikita too huh.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USSR_anti-religious_campaign_(1958–1964)

No, they were busy trying to achieve an atheist state.

Just like China is doing now with their latest atheist crackdown.
 
The Big Dog said:
Wait, wait, wait... you think that Sinicization means follow the communist party lead? That is absurd.
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Sinicization, sinicisation, sinofication, or sinification is a process whereby non-Chinese societies come under the influence of Chinese culture, particularly Han Chinese culture and societal norms. Areas of influence include diet, writing, industry, education, language, law, lifestyle, politics, philosophy, religion, science and technology, culture, and value systems. More broadly, "Sinicization" may refer to policies of acculturation, assimilation, or cultural imperialism imposed by China onto neighboring East Asian countries. Evidence of this can be seen in the value systems, cuisine, architectural style, and lexicons. This is reflected in the histories of Japan, Korea and Vietnam for example, in the adoption of the Chinese writing system as the script of the Han Chinese has long been a unifying feature in the Sinosphere as the vehicle for exporting Chinese culture to these Asian countries.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization

There's more on that page. Here's a fun thing to try: Go to that link, press Ctrl-F and type "atheism". See how many times that word appears on the page that defines sinicization.

Okay, I'll tell you. It's zero. The word "atheism" appears zero times on the Wikipedia page defining sinicization.
 
The Big Dog said:
But I was told it “thrived”. Why would they have to reopen churches if they were thriving? Hmm, that is a puzzler.

I guess they really “thrived” under Nikita too huh.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USSR_anti-religious_campaign_(1958–1964)

No, they were busy trying to achieve an atheist state.

Just like China is doing now with their latest atheist crackdown.
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As I said above, you are just taking the piss now. Like all conspiracy nutcases, you have your cause set in concrete. Now you are desperately searching for evidence. Anything will do. And Muslims were dancing after 9/11 too.
 
Norman Alexander said:
I can see now you are just taking the piss and not having a real discussion. Have fun with that.
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Not sure what gave you that idea, in fact he and I seem to be the only ones talking about the article and the crack down. I think it is appalling, he thinks that it is fanstatic, in fact it does not go far enough in his view.
 
arthwollipot said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization

There's more on that page. Here's a fun thing to try: Go to that link, press Ctrl-F and type "atheism". See how many times that word appears on the page that defines sinicization.

Okay, I'll tell you. It's zero. The word "atheism" appears zero times on the Wikipedia page defining sinicization.
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Cool! I notice that other fella said it didn’t appear in the article, but while I enjoy reading articles, I direct your attention to the linked article in the op. Let’s take a gander.

“The campaign corresponds with a drive to “Sinicize” religion by demanding loyalty to the officially atheist Communist Party and eliminating any challenge to its power over people’s lives.”

There is that officially atheist word we were searching for!
 
Norman Alexander said:
As I said above, you are just taking the piss now. Like all conspiracy nutcases, you have your cause set in concrete. Now you are desperately searching for evidence. Anything will do. And Muslims were dancing after 9/11 too.
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You think that the article about the USSR’s crackdown on religion after Stalin as reflected in the article I linked and which completely rebutted your false claims is a conspiracy theory?

Say, do us a favor and walk us through that will you?
 
The Big Dog said:
Cool! I notice that other fella said it didn’t appear in the article, but while I enjoy reading articles, I direct your attention to the linked article in the op. Let’s take a gander.

“The campaign corresponds with a drive to “Sinicize” religion by demanding loyalty to the officially atheist Communist Party and eliminating any challenge to its power over people’s lives.”

There is that officially atheist word we were searching for!
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Seismosaurus said:
How did you determine that the people doing this are atheists? I doubt you even know any of them.
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:thumbsup:
 
The Big Dog said:
Cool! I notice that other fella said it didn’t appear in the article, but while I enjoy reading articles, I direct your attention to the linked article in the op. Let’s take a gander.

“The campaign corresponds with a drive to “Sinicize” religion by demanding loyalty to the officially atheist Communist Party and eliminating any challenge to its power over people’s lives.”

There is that officially atheist word we were searching for!
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Right. The campaign to sinicize religion. To make religion conform to Chinese norms. Which, in an authoritarian state means conforming to the wishes of the government. They're not cracking down because the churches are religious, they're cracking down because the churches are dissidents. And they're doing that not because they are atheist, they are doing that because that's what totalitarian governments do - they eliminate dissent.

Here it is again, from Wikipedia:

Areas of influence include diet, writing, industry, education, language, law, lifestyle, politics, philosophy, religion, science and technology, culture, and value systems.
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Notice that religion is in the mix, alongside education, law, politics, philosophy and culture and others.

Like the Soviets, the goal of China is not to destroy religion, it is to assimilate it and use it as a tool of the state.
 
TBD is doing a bit of trolling here, but there is a point to be made. In fact, there are a couple of points. I can think of two, one of which I'm sure he will agree with, and the other, possibly, but perhaps with not so much enthusiasm.


First, there are a lot of people on this board who act like the United States is a Christian theocracy where non-Christians, especially atheists, are a persecuted minority. That's bunk. The government in China is showing what real persecution looks like, and it doesn't look like anything that's happening here in the US. (That's the one I'm sure TBD agrees with, although I will let him correct me if I'm wrong.)

The second is that we have seen throughout history that any time the government gets to dictate an official policy about religious practice, things really suck for anyone who doesn't go along with the official policy. This is true whether, as in most of history, the official policy specifies a particular style of worshipping a specific god or, as in the modern era, where the official policy is to recognize no god at all and forbid or restrict worship of one, or more, or all, sorts of gods. It took until the 20th century to have officially atheist, as opposed to merely secular, governments, and everyplace where they have existed, things have sucked. The lesson ought to be to demand religious freedom everywhere, and not encroach on that freedom if it can at all be avoided. Unfortunately, some people seem to think that since atheism isn't a religion, somehow policies that promote atheism aren't restricting religious freedom.
 
All this is true, but I really do think that TBD believes that religion is under attack by organised atheism, and that the Stalinist government of the USSR and today's Chinese government are examples of this. I think he'd be pretty hard-pressed to provide very many additional examples - the government of Pol Pot is the only one that comes immediately to my mind - but that has never stopped him before.
 
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