Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall

[King of the Americas]

After GT those HG were living in an area where wild crops were particularly rich in grain crops ---- you are wrong again.



Oh are you saying NO HG ever had alcohol? Really? REALLY? lol



Nope wrong again

The earliest known place that domestication is confirmed is near GT is Abu Hureyra which is 500-1000 years younger from the current excavations at GT

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_Abu_Hureyra

By the way the domestication of wheat and other grains points to a modification of the grain itself it doesn't point to when people settled down and became agriculturalists. It is thought people were spreading grain out to grow and continuing their HG and seasonal wanderings too for quite some time.

Your 'claim' will require the finding of a long term habitation site, showing social organization, pottery and writing that can be associated with the builders of GT. No such thing has been found yet at GT. You're gonna have to wait......lol

Those quotes were from your links...

 

[Andy_Ross]

What do cave pantings 40,000 years ago have anything to do with what happened 12,500 outside the caves?? I don't understand.

Wouldn't the flood water get in to a cave then?

 

[Craig B]

You are right, survival of media is all about "location location location" or as you put it "because they are in caves".

isn't it ODD, that you keep saying 'no trace' except that there are these huge unmistakable stone ruins spread out across the world...

We keep saying that these ruins are not evidence of advanced civilisation. They don't require it. They require collective endeavour, well within the capacity of ancient kingdoms. We have said this many times, and you have produced no evidence to rebut it. Why should we attend to things to say ever so many times, if you can't prove them even once?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Even if there was a settled agricultural society that doesn't mean any 'advanced' technology.

We have lots of evidence of vanished civilizations, none of them have anything our present society would consider 'advanced'

What form would this 'advanced technology' take?

 

[Hans]

Those quotes were from your links...

Yes they were but guess what you didn't understand them

You are still wrong

 

[Hans]

We keep saying that these ruins are not evidence of advanced civilisation. They don't require it. They require collective endeavour, well within the capacity of ancient kingdoms. We have said this many times, and you have produced no evidence to rebut it. Why should we attend to things to say ever so many times, if you can't prove them even once?

Maybe he's trying to kill us with boredom?

 

[Matthew Ellard]

How do explain the 40,000 year old cave paintings all around the world untouched by floods, while fantasising a 12,000 year old flood wiped away all evidence of these pretend advanced civilisations?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

The hard evidence that 40,000 year old cave paintings still exist is clear evidence there was no world wide flood 12,500 years ago.

(Atlantis's)War 9000 year ago against an Athens, that I don't remember.

It's the bit from Plato's discussion of Atlantis that you tried to ignore as it ends your ridiculous claim. Athens didn't even exist as a warring state until roughly 1200BC.

maybe it is the Athens that inspired the one we know of.

Critias of Athens, was discussing Athens, the city he a Plato were in. That was the whole point of Plato discussing the advantage of his home town Athens. It was not another Athens. Are you admitting you never read what Plato actually wrote?.

What do cave pantings 40,000 years ago have anything to do with what happened 12,500 outside the caves?? I don't understand.

The 40,000 year old cave paintings would have washed away in your fantasy flood of 12,500BC. Are you still struggling with that concept?

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Even if there was a settled agricultural society that doesn't mean any 'advanced' technology.

What form would this 'advanced technology' take?

I watched the Shermer & Hancock video. I don't think King of America has watched it. At no point does Hancock say there was advanced agriculture existing around Göbekli Tepe. Instead Hancock says Göbekli Tepe was a place of shared learning that allowed advanced agriculture to arise later.

Secondly, Shermer repeatedly asks Hancock the same question you did. "If there was no pottery, writing, metal tools or new technology how do you claim its builders were advanced?" Hancock does not answer the question.

You have probably noticed that King of Americas is unable to quote Hancock from the video.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Wouldn't the flood water get in to a cave then?

Even more amazing is that some of those cave paintings were painted at exactly the same time as King of America's fantasy world wide flood.

King of America will probably now argue that the aqua-lung and diving suit was invented at Göbekli Tepe.

 

[John Jones]

It was the wormhole technology that Jodie teaches us. The fact that there is no evidence of it is proof of a global conspiracy of silence.

 

[Reality Check]

Even more amazing is that some of those cave paintings were painted at exactly the same time as King of America's fantasy world wide flood.

There is also the basic fact that a "world wide" flood is physically impossible because there is not enough water on Earth to cover all of the land masses. There are plenty of flood myths usually in cultures around rivers that experience floods. A few of these may be memories of local floods or tsunami.

 

[Reality Check]

GT is direct evidence that a very advanced agricultural civilization DID indeed exist before or around the Younger Dryas.

This is Göbekli Tepe which has no evidence of any advanced agricultural civilization:

All statements about the site must be considered preliminary, as less than 5% of the site has been excavated, and Schmidt planned to leave much of it untouched to be explored by future generations (when archaeological techniques will presumably have improved).[10] While the site formally belongs to the earliest Neolithic (PPNA), up to now no traces of domesticated plants or animals have been found. The inhabitants are assumed to have been hunters and gatherers who nevertheless lived in villages for at least part of the year.[30] So far, very little evidence for residential use has been found. Through the radiocarbon method, the end of Layer III can be fixed at about 9000 BCE (see above) but it is believed that the elevated location may have functioned as a spiritual center by 11,000 BCE or even earlier, essentially at the very end of the Pleistocene.

(my emphasis added)

 

[Reality Check]

THE hypothesis is and has been, that there was an advanced civilization that was wiped out by a flood, around 12,500 years ago, cause by an asteroid impact across the Northern, North American Continent. This impact unleashed massive amounts frozen glacial water that dramatically changed the ocean levels very quickly.

There is no evidence of

• Any "advanced" (whatever you mean by that) civilizations around 12,500 years ago.
• An asteroid impact "across the Northern, North American Continent"
• A release of glacial water from that impact.

ETA:
A couple of engineers Martin B. Sweatman and Dimitrios Tsikritsis have a paper "Decoding Gobekli Tepe with archaeoastronomy: What does the fox say?" in Mediterranean Archaeology and Archaeometry. This is that a comet caused the Younger Dryas . They claim that some Göbekli Tepe pillars contain astronomical symbols because they think that modern constellations were used 10,000 years ago, e.g. a carving of a scorpion is related to the constellations Scorpius. So they go on about "pretty good" matches to modern constellation groups (asterisms).
What astronomers and archeologists know is that the constellations we use today were first identified by the Greek astronomer Ptolemy in the second century, i.e. are relatively modern, Western, imaginary star patterns.

 

[Hans]

This is Göbekli Tepe which has no evidence of any advanced agricultural civilization:

(my emphasis added)

Yeah he's having a problem with that. He also doesn't seem to be aware that GT and many other of the sites we have mentioned were part of place called;

Wait for it

The 'Fertile Crescent' because of the later rise of agriculture there and the number of ancestral grain species in that area.

We may have to get out crayons and Dr. Seuss level writing to gain his full attention to this....................chuckle

 

[Matthew Ellard]

There are plenty of usually in cultures around rivers that experience floods. A few of these may be memories of local floods or tsunami.

You're absolutely right. The Tigris and Euphrates are where agriculture arose and they had to break their banks to deposit fertile soil. The biblical ark is just a expanded story about taking farm animals to high ground.

King of Americas hasn't explained why there is no 12,500 year old "silt" layer around Göbekli Tepe.

This thread is more of a comedy thread and King of Americas is posting endless examples of nonsense, for the Bad Archaeology website.

Bad Archaeology: exposing frauds, misconceptions and distortions
http://www.badarchaeology.com/

 

[Roboramma]

You are right, survival of media is all about "location location location" or as you put it "because they are in caves".

isn't it ODD, that you keep saying 'no trace' except that there are these huge unmistakable stone ruins spread out across the world...

I'm talking about no trace of the ships that were part of this intercontinental trade network necessary to sustain a global civilization. Or roads. Or railways. Or communications networks. No trace of the coins that would be a part of any such global civilization. No trace of the mining. No genetic evidence of their agriculture. etc. etc. etc.

 

[Craig B]

I'm talking about no trace of the ships that were part of this intercontinental trade network necessary to sustain a global civilization. Or roads. Or railways. Or communications networks. No trace of the coins that would be a part of any such global civilization. No trace of the mining. No genetic evidence of their agriculture. etc. etc. etc.

No pollen evidence of their agriculture either. If there was a single civilisation did its American branch not grow Old World wheat or barley? If not, why not? If yes where's the pollen in lakebed core samples from these early periods?

This point destroys the Mormons' fantasy history of North America too.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

You are right, survival of media is all about "location location location" or as you put it "because they are in caves".

isn't it ODD, that you keep saying 'no trace' except that there are these huge unmistakable stone ruins spread out across the world...

You previously claimed there were huge stone pyramids on every continent.
I notice your new phraseology.
Are you now retreating from your earlier claim? If not, could you please indicate where we might see the Australian and Antarctic pyramids? If you are backing off ffom your claim, is this because it was unevidenced and made-up, or has something come along to make you reconsider the evidence you must have had to have made that claim in the first place?

 

[Andy_Ross]

You're absolutely right. The Tigris and Euphrates are where agriculture arose and they had to break their banks to deposit fertile soil. The biblical ark is just a expanded story about taking farm animals to high ground.

King of Americas hasn't explained why there is no 12,500 year old "silt" layer around Göbekli Tepe.

His flood washed it all away of course.

 

[King of the Americas]

Wouldn't the flood water get in to a cave then?

Maybe, I have no idea...what elevation are the caves at?

Were they painted only the once, or have they been retouched?