Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall

[Hans]

^Straw-man Fallacy^ FULL BLOOM

Okay, then we shouldn't be seeing that should we? Let see how long you can post normally.

 

[Craig B]

I am sorry, I am a little lost... Which war are you citing?

THE hypothesis is and has been, that there was an advanced civilization that was wiped out by a flood, around 12,500 years ago, cause by an asteroid impact across the Northern, North American Continent. This impact unleashed massive amounts frozen glacial water that dramatically changed the ocean levels very quickly.

I have posed several coastal images of sunken ruins from along the coast of Spain that have circular walls.

*Using Google Earth, you can zoom in on the shallows along almost any coastline, of Europe and the Mediterranean and see flooded ruins...

These floods washed away all the advanced technology but left behind copious supplies of delicate but primitive weapons like this. Yes, you are "a little lost", or more than a little lost.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Yes. You have now realised , that Critias of Athens, said 9,000 year had past since the war ended and not when Atlantis "sank". This destroyed all your previous dating claims concerning Atlantis.

I am sorry, I am a little lost... Which war are you citing?

If you had ever bothered to read Plato, he quotes for his fable : Critias of Athens discussing the war between Atlantis and Athens, 9,000 years before Plato.

That's why we were laughing at you. To claim Plato is evidence of Atlantis also requires Athens to be 9,000 years before Plato.

"Critias (/ˈkrɪtiəs/; Greek: Κριτίας), one of Plato's late dialogues, recounts the story of the mighty island kingdom Atlantis and its attempt to conquer Athens, which failed due to the ordered society of the Athenians. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critias_(dialogue)

 

[Matthew Ellard]

THE hypothesis is and has been, that there was an advanced civilization that was wiped out by a flood, around 12,500 years ago, cause by an asteroid impact across the Northern, North American Continent. This impact unleashed massive amounts frozen glacial water that dramatically changed the ocean levels very quickly.

How do explain the 40,000 year old cave paintings all around the world untouched by floods, while fantasising a 12,000 year old flood wiped away all evidence of these pretend advanced civilisations?

 

[Matthew Ellard]

GT is direct evidence that a very advanced agricultural civilization DID indeed exist before or around the Younger Dryas.

Nope. The evidence from Göbekli Tepe is exactly the opposite to your fantasy claim.

The grain strains actually found there, including residue in the beer vats, were all wild, clearly indicating no selective breeding had occurred yet.

The salt tables were still at natural levels clearly indicating no irrigation had taken place.

There were no domesticated animal imagery or domesticated animal bones at Göbekli Tepe but hard evidence of wild gazelles and aurochs.

 

[Hans]

Nope. The evidence from Göbekli Tepe is exactly the opposite to your fantasy claim.

The grain strains actually found there, including residue in the beer vats, were all wild, clearly indicating no selective breeding had occurred yet.

The salt tables were still at natural levels clearly indicating no irrigation had taken place.

There were no domesticated animal imagery or domesticated animal bones at Göbekli Tepe but hard evidence of wild gazelles and aurochs.

Yep and for our lurkers here is a well illustrated pdf written by the main excavators at GT that covers what you mentioned above.

https://mediatum.ub.tum.de/doc/1315510/1315510.pdf

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Message Boards and Graduate Thesis Work are 'different'...

Yep. You can't troll your way through a thesis.

 

[Craig B]

If you had ever bothered to read Plato, he quotes for his fable : Critias of Athens discussing the war between Atlantis and Athens, 9,000 years before Plato.

That's why we were laughing at you. To claim Plato is evidence of Atlantis also requires Athens to be 9,000 years before Plato.

"Critias (/ˈkrɪtiəs/; Greek: Κριτίας), one of Plato's late dialogues, recounts the story of the mighty island kingdom Atlantis and its attempt to conquer Athens, which failed due to the ordered society of the Athenians. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critias_(dialogue)

If we could get carbon dates from original material found beneath an undisturbed column of the Parthenon it would show that Athens is twelve thousand years old.

So let's go ... dear me, I'm afraid the site's been totally messed about and all the carbon dates are baloney.

On 26 September 1687, an Ottoman ammunition dump inside the building was ignited by Venetian bombardment. The resulting explosion severely damaged the Parthenon and its sculptures.​

Tough.

 

[Hans]

If we could get carbon dates from original material found beneath an undisturbed column of the Parthenon it would show that Athens is twelve thousand years old.

So let's go ... dear me, I'm afraid the site's been totally messed about and all the carbon dates are baloney.

On 26 September 1687, an Ottoman ammunition dump inside the building was ignited by Venetian bombardment. The resulting explosion severely damaged the Parthenon and its sculptures.​

Tough.

Yes I believe he should write a paper, urgently warning all the major schools of Archaeology to let them know that he has discovered if you push over a rock or move it from its position every thing underneath it in the undisturbed ground below magically becomes jello.

 

[King of the Americas]

How do explain the 40,000 year old cave paintings all around the world untouched by floods, while fantasising a 12,000 year old flood wiped away all evidence of these pretend advanced civilisations?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

---

War 9000 year ago against an Athens, that I don't remember....?

Clearly it was old, maybe it is the Athens that inspired the one we know of. Look, this is pre-history's history. The long and short is no one really knows what the hell happened. Across the world we have myths of an ancient flood. We have the scablands and the younger dryas, and submerged ruins off of most coasts, as I have posted my own google earth found evidences.

Did you know that GT is connected to Easter Island?

The monuments have been unearthed to reveal they are much taller than originally thought. At the bottom each finished piece has hands hold a small square box at the bottom. GT has the same hands and box.

After looking at how deep these things are buried, and which direction the whole ones, where that were deeply entombed, I think there where two building phases at work. The first phase completed most of the pieces, the later moved and refinished the remains and ruins after the global flood. The two phases can be marked by the direction the statues are facing.

"Athens is modern, not ancient!"...?

I don't understand why there couldn't be both? You know there is a Paris in Texas? No tower though, well a small water tower, but not much else.

What do cave pantings 40,000 years ago have anything to do with what happened 12,500 outside the caves?? I don't understand.

 

[King of the Americas]

...
Nope, I suggest you read a book or a paper on pre-dynastic Egypt and the various cultures that existed there. (in the Nile Valley)

YOU should study the water erosion on the Sphinx...

 

[King of the Americas]

Yep and for our lurkers here is a well illustrated pdf written by the main excavators at GT that covers what you mentioned above.

https://mediatum.ub.tum.de/doc/1315510/1315510.pdf

Thank you for posting evidence that supports my claim:

"The distribution areas of the wild forms of einkorn and emmer wheat, barley and the other Neolithic founder crops overlap here, and the transition of the two species of wheat to domesticated crops has been pinpointed to this area (Harlan & Zohary 1966; Nesbitt & Samuel 1996; Heun et al. 1997, 2008; Lev-Yadun et al. 2000; O ̈ zkan et al. 2002, 2011; Luo et al. 2007)."

-taken from his link...

Also in his links are pictures and explanations that these people "feasted" with alcohol. These were NOT nomadic hunter-gatherers. They were a settled civilization-

"...Genetic analyses have shown that the domestication of single-grained einkorn and emmer wheat took place around the Karacadag ̆ (Heun et al. 1997; Luo et al. 2007) in close vicinity to Go ̈bekli Tepe. It is an intriguing thought that brewing and the domestication of wheat might be interrelated."

GT was not created by primitive hunter gatherers. They came after.

 

[Roboramma]

What do cave pantings 40,000 years ago have anything to do with what happened 12,500 outside the caves?? I don't understand.

Cave paintings from 40,000 years ago survived whatever catastrophe you think wiped out some technologically advanced civilization. Yet somehow the artefacts from that civilization didn't? The question is, how did the former survive but the latter didn't?

You might suggest "because they are in caves". But why is it that no technology from this worldwide civilization was located in some place that was protected from the floods?

Isn't it also odd that there is no trace of this worldwide civilization in language or genetics, either human genetics or the genetics of domesticated species?

 

[Roboramma]

War 9000 year ago against an Athens, that I don't remember....?

It's the date that you cited for the fall of Atlantis. Except it wasn't actually the date Plato gives for the fall of Atlantis. He doesn't give a date for it's fall.

 

[Hans]

Thank you for posting evidence that supports my claim:

"The distribution areas of the wild forms of einkorn and emmer wheat, barley and the other Neolithic founder crops overlap here, and the transition of the two species of wheat to domesticated crops has been pinpointed to this area (Harlan & Zohary 1966; Nesbitt & Samuel 1996; Heun et al. 1997, 2008; Lev-Yadun et al. 2000; O ̈ zkan et al. 2002, 2011; Luo et al. 2007)."

After GT those HG were living in an area where wild crops were particularly rich in grain crops ---- you are wrong again.

Also in his links are pictures and explanations that these people "feasted" with alcohol. These were NOT nomadic hunter-gatherers. They were a settled civilization-

Oh are you saying NO HG ever had alcohol? Really? REALLY? lol

"...Genetic analyses have shown that the domestication of single-grained einkorn and emmer wheat took place around the Karacadag ̆ (Heun et al. 1997; Luo et al. 2007) in close vicinity to Go ̈bekli Tepe. It is an intriguing thought that brewing and the domestication of wheat might be interrelated."

GT was not created by primitive hunter gatherers. They came after.

Nope wrong again

The earliest known place that domestication is confirmed is near GT is Abu Hureyra which is 500-1000 years younger from the current excavations at GT

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_Abu_Hureyra

By the way the domestication of wheat and other grains points to a modification of the grain itself it doesn't point to when people settled down and became agriculturalists. It is thought people were spreading grain out to grow and continuing their HG and seasonal wanderings too for quite some time.

Your 'claim' will require the finding of a long term habitation site, showing social organization, pottery and writing that can be associated with the builders of GT. No such thing has been found yet at GT. You're gonna have to wait......lol

 

[Hans]

YOU should study the water erosion on the Sphinx...

I have you haven't and you are still wrong

 

[Hans]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Did you know that GT is connected to Easter Island?

........ just 10,000 years apart - again similarities in depicting human forms use the same labor saving techniques when the artists aren't capable of making 3d representation of the human form - they draw the arms and hands on a solid body.

 

[steenkh]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Correct. There could have been an advanced culture that tended to use only water-soluble artefacts. It cannot be ruled out.

 

[Hans]

Correct. There could have been an advanced culture that tended to use only water-soluble artefacts. It cannot be ruled out.

Or a favourite of the wooish - a culture that did all their work with their minds.....

 

[King of the Americas]

Cave paintings from 40,000 years ago survived whatever catastrophe you think wiped out some technologically advanced civilization. Yet somehow the artefacts from that civilization didn't? The question is, how did the former survive but the latter didn't?

You might suggest "because they are in caves". But why is it that no technology from this worldwide civilization was located in some place that was protected from the floods?

Isn't it also odd that there is no trace of this worldwide civilization in language or genetics, either human genetics or the genetics of domesticated species?

You are right, survival of media is all about "location location location" or as you put it "because they are in caves".

isn't it ODD, that you keep saying 'no trace' except that there are these huge unmistakable stone ruins spread out across the world...