Trump and NFL boycott

[Skeptic Ginger]

[snipped absurd rationalizing]

Probably not. Why would that make a difference?

So you are going for 'Pence's ignorance was great, the best ignorance ever' over 'Pence planned the stunt'?

 

[phiwum]

Yes, and the content of that speech is: Africans, know your place, us white rich dude are the ones speaking, shut up already.

I don't buy this response. While I recognize that this is a racial issue, I don't think that everyone on the other side of the aisle is being racist.

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[Skeptic Ginger]

None of this is related to walking out being an act of oppression.

And players could have made their statements at some other time too. They felt it was important to do it at that specific place and time. That isn't fundamentally different than Pence's choice of a specific place and time.

Just so it's clear, this is the full statement in the op ed I cited that you are trying to be dismissive of:

But when the top two elected leaders of our democracy decide that political speech – in this case, a silent and non-violent form of political speech – is unacceptable to the point of walking out of the game where it happens, well, that’s chilling. That’s the kind of oppressive nonsense our ancestors were leaving when they crossed the Atlantic Ocean hundreds of years ago.

We all have a right to free speech, especially political speech. Pence and Trump are welcome to their free speech as well. But technically, using the office of POTUS to try to influence firing of football players specifically because of the free speech they exercised is a clear violation of the First Amendment.
And you seem to think that's just peachy.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I don't buy this response. While I recognize that this is a racial issue, I don't think that everyone on the other side of the aisle is being racist.

Definitely they are not all racist. I do wish a few more of them though, would speak out against Trump's blatant racism.

 

[Ziggurat]

Quite right, but for the fact that you and I spent a small bit of taxes for Pence to make that political act in favor of his boss.

Again, so long as his discretionary travel spending is in line with the expectations of the office what does it matter? What difference if he uses it for this stunt or for a vacation? None, really. If he wants to use it for political stunts rather than to go skiing, it's no skin off my back. Or yours.

 

[johnny karate]

I don't buy this response. While I recognize that this is a racial issue, I don't think that everyone on the other side of the aisle is being racist.

I don't either. But it's not unreasonable to consider it a factor when the free speech rights of Nazis and white supremacists are treated as more important than those of black athletes.

 

[Ziggurat]

It's not that Pence walked out, it's that he pretended it was a random event when it was so obviously staged.

And that makes it oppressive... how?

Do you approve of the taxpayer's dollars spent on this little charade?

I've already covered this.

Do you approve of the POTUS and VPOTUS demonstrating against people's First Amendment rights?

Unless Pence is advocating the use of government force, then this isn't a first amendment issue. And even the broader concept of free speech shouldn't insulate people from all criticism of their speech.

Think their personal views should come from their public office?

Welcome to politics. That's the way it works, whether you want it to or not. If you don't want it to, your issues are a lot bigger than Pence at a football game.

I suppose you totally approve of their condemnation of black football players speaking out against excessive use of police force against young black men while praising the young white men that marched with torches and Nazi flags.

I've never expressed approval or disapproval of the specific message. What I've done is take issue with your chicken little description of this as some form of oppression. It isn't.

 

[Ziggurat]

So you are going for 'Pence's ignorance was great, the best ignorance ever' over 'Pence planned the stunt'?

Learn to read better. By saying I think Pence probably didn't expect that no one would kneel, I was saying I think Pence probably DID expect someone to kneel. So you have that exactly backwards.

 

[Ziggurat]

Yes, and the content of that speech is: Africans, know your place, us white rich dude are the ones speaking, shut up already.

The left complains when the right portrays these protests as being anti-patriotic, because it's not valid to substitute the worst possible motive for their stated motive. But you've done exactly the same thing, just to the other side.

You aren't actually any better than the people you condemn.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Learn to read better. By saying I think Pence probably didn't expect that no one would kneel, I was saying I think Pence probably DID expect someone to kneel. So you have that exactly backwards.

"Not planned" and "did expect someone to kneel" are mutually exclusive.

 

[phiwum]

Again, so long as his discretionary travel spending is in line with the expectations of the office what does it matter? What difference if he uses it for this stunt or for a vacation? None, really. If he wants to use it for political stunts rather than to go skiing, it's no skin off my back. Or yours.

Ah. So long as I have you right here. Say a prominent Democrat spent, oh, let's say a quarter of a million dollars[1] 'in order to travel to some spot only to get up and walk out in order to make some sort of point. Now, this here Democrat knew that such and such would happen, went there expecting such and such but got up and walked out.

So long as it was in their expected budget, you're totally cool with it. So long as it didn't make the budget a bit larger (and of course, we could talk about Trump's vacation budget, but that's another matter which we needn't raise here).

Here's my thoughts. Flying to a location only to make a public walkout in a venue which honestly isn't essential to the presidency is a *********** waste of taxpayer dollars. It was a pointless protest, a mere show. Didn't need it, didn't want it, and if it was another president, you might have concluded the same. You might have thought that a Dem shouldn't be wasting your dime for such a needless show.

And to be honest, that Pence did it makes me think less of Pence. I kinda thought of him as a man of half-principle. Sure, no man of principle would run on Trump's ticket, but maybe a man of half-principle. But now he's just a show-dog.

[1] Someone cited this figure earlier, but I've no clue if it's reasonable.

 

[phiwum]

I don't either. But it's not unreasonable to consider it a factor when the free speech rights of Nazis and white supremacists are treated as more important than those of black athletes.

I get your point here, but I will defer to the principle of charity.

I'm sure that some who complain about kneelers are racist, but since I can see a non-racist argument for their complaint and they don't explicitly bring up race, I will expect the best here until it's no longer tenable.

 

[Mark F]

So it's
"I left today's Colts game, as planned, at the request of POTUS, a draft dodger who makes fun of veterans & their parents, because some black people want to quietly protest police brutality as is their right as American's."

You left a bit out.

 

[Ziggurat]

Ah. So long as I have you right here. Say a prominent Democrat spent, oh, let's say a quarter of a million dollars[1] 'in order to travel to some spot only to get up and walk out in order to make some sort of point. Now, this here Democrat knew that such and such would happen, went there expecting such and such but got up and walked out.

So long as it was in their expected budget, you're totally cool with it.

In terms of spending, yes. I might have other criticisms, and there are grounds for criticizing Pence as well that I haven't argued against.

It's also possible to object just to the size of the travel budget. Maybe it's larger than it should be. If anyone wants to make that argument in regards to Pence, go for it. But that would be a separate and independent complaint.

Here's my thoughts. Flying to a location only to make a public walkout in a venue which honestly isn't essential to the presidency is a *********** waste of taxpayer dollars.

If it's already in the budget, that money will be spent. If it doesn't get spent on crap like this, then it will get spent on skiing trips. If Pence chose this over a ski trip, that's up to him. I wouldn't make the same choice, but that's not the question I was addressing either.

It was a pointless protest, a mere show.

Everything about this entire affair is a pointless protest, a mere show.

And to be honest, that Pence did it makes me think less of Pence.

That's fine. My argument isn't an endorsement of his decision. It's only a counter to some very specific lines of attack against him, starting with the absurdity that this was somehow oppressive.

[1] Someone cited this figure earlier, but I've no clue if it's reasonable.

I've seen lower (but still significant) figures quoted elsewhere, but no matter. Presidential or vice presidential travel is always absurdly expensive.

 

[Oystein]

I don't buy this response. While I recognize that this is a racial issue, I don't think that everyone on the other side of the aisle is being racist.

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Trump is, and he ordered Pence to make that particular speech.

 

[Oystein]

The left complains when the right portrays these protests as being anti-patriotic, because it's not valid to substitute the worst possible motive for their stated motive. But you've done exactly the same thing, just to the other side.

You aren't actually any better than the people you condemn.

The people I condemn are Trump. Trump ordered Pence to waste tax payers' money to make that particular speech. We already know Trump is a stupid, unreflected racist.

 

[quadraginta]

Vice President and delicate snowflake Mike Pence can't handle the horrific sight of people kneeling:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/...napolis-colts-game-protesting-national-anthem

Pence tweeted a statement in which he said he would not dignify any event that disrespects soldiers, the flag or the anthem.

Shame he doesn't feel the same way about the Constitution.

 

[quadraginta]

So it's
"I left today's Colts game, as planned, at the request of POTUS, a draft dodger who makes fun of veterans, POWs & their parents"

You left something out.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I don't get this whole kneeling being disrespectful anyways. Where I come from Kneeling is the most respectful and humble thing you can do. For those that are believers, we are called to kneel before God. We kneel before our Queen and her representatives. We kneel before our War Memorials and beside graves when we honour the dead. In kneeling, we place ourselves lower than who or what we are kneeling before, elevating them to a higher position.

How anyone can think that kneeling is disrespectful is beyond me.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I don't get this whole kneeling being disrespectful anyways. Where I come from Kneeling is the most respectful and humble thing you can do. For those that are believers, we are called to kneel before God. We kneel before our Queen and her representatives. We kneel before our War Memorials and beside graves when we honour the dead. In kneeling, we place ourselves lower than who or what we are kneeling before, elevating them to a higher position.

How anyone can think that kneeling is disrespectful is beyond me.

People complaining are simple idiots that don't understand the difference between patriotism and nationalism. They see the flag as a symbol of who they are, that they are the "true" Americans and anyone that doesn't worship the flag the way they do are not real Americans.