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US Citizen Otto Warmbier, returned from North Korea, has died

Chris_Halkides said:
What crime do you think he committed, and what is the evidence for this?
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The NK allegation is that he went to an off-limits part of his hotel and tore a propaganda poster off the wall. NK released a dark, blurry video of a tallish but unrecognizable person that they claim shows Warmbier. He apologized for his actions (certainly he could have been coerced) at his trial. Obviously the penalty for minor vandalism, at worst, was outrageous. But not many people are claiming that NK made the whole thing up. What would be their motive for creating a major international incident out of thin air?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Korean-hotel-earning-15-years-hard-labor.html
 
z answer

“I will now discuss the Z Society, and its encouragement of my crime.
The Z Society is the most secret organization at the UVA. All members and activities are strictly confidential. I first came to know of the Z Society in September 2013, when I first started at the university. I saw large Z crests painted on all the buildings of the compound. You can see them if you visit the University of Virginia… I was told that they’re from the Z Society, since the society donates millions of dollars to the university. The Z Society has around ten student members currently and after graduation they all go on to become very wealthy, with jobs in politics, business, and religion. Members of the Z Society include former US president Woodrow Wilson and a former head of the CIA. The stated objective of the Z Society is to spread freedom and eliminate tyranny. In order to become members, they must have good grades, and leadership, and most importantly, they must commit a brave act to help with the society’s stated objective. Once again, all members and activities are strictly confidential. It is, well, clear that the Z Society knew of my good grades and leadership. It is also clear that they knew that I would eagerly want to join the society in order to solve my family’s desperate financial problems. Because of this the Z Society expected me to commit a brave act to help eliminate tyranny. In order to prove my braveness to the Z Society I committed my crime in the DPR Korea with hopes of joining the Z Society. As you know from the Cold War era example, the CIA has always been leading anti-communism in every place in the world. There is no doubt that the CIA knows of the Z Society’s encouragement of my crime. Lastly, I want to clearly state that I was the political victim of the United States’ consistent hostile policy against the DPR Korea.”
link.

On the basis of this passage and others, I think we can dismiss the confession as pure nonsense. I agree that the video has little probative value. My best guess? What Politico implied but did not come right out and say.
 
Chris_Halkides said:
.....
On the basis of this passage and others, I think we can dismiss the confession as pure nonsense. I agree that the video has little probative value. My best guess? What Politico implied but did not come right out and say.
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So what do you think Politico is implying? That Warmbier got drunk and made trouble? That makes him look worse than if he just pulled a prank. That NK was mad at the tour operator? They could just have shut it down. You think he was framed for something he didn't do? Why?
 
two possibilities come to mind

Bob001 said:
So what do you think Politico is implying? That Warmbier got drunk and made trouble? That makes him look worse than if he just pulled a prank. That NK was mad at the tour operator? They could just have shut it down. You think he was framed for something he didn't do? Why?
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I think that there are two possibilities and that either one is more reasonable than that Mr. Warmbier took down a banner. First, it was an inebriated Mr. Gratton who allegedly went running off and disappeared for several hours. BTW it was Mr. Gratton who indicated that he and Mr. Warbier did not get their customary wake-up call, making them late. Therefore, perhaps he was the intended target, and someone mistakenly grabbed Mr. Warmbier. Alternatively, the North Koreans might have grabbed Warmbier even knowing that it was Gratton who was alone for some period of time (one that coincided with the alleged taking down of the banner). Time quoted Phil Robertson, deputy Asia director of Human Rights Watch: “When North Korea gets into a diplomatic dispute with the U.S. government, they like to grab any American they can find and use them as bargaining chips.”
 
Chris_Halkides said:
What crime do you think he committed, and what is the evidence for this?
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If I went to North Korea I would assume I could be arrested for doing nothing wrong at all, which is one reason I would never go.

Chris_Halkides said:
I think that there are two possibilities and that either one is more reasonable than that Mr. Warmbier took down a banner. First, it was an inebriated Mr. Gratton who allegedly went running off and disappeared for several hours. BTW it was Mr. Gratton who indicated that he and Mr. Warbier did not get their customary wake-up call, making them late. Therefore, perhaps he was the intended target, and someone mistakenly grabbed Mr. Warmbier. Alternatively, the North Koreans might have grabbed Warmbier even knowing that it was Gratton who was alone for some period of time (one that coincided with the alleged taking down of the banner). Time quoted Phil Robertson, deputy Asia director of Human Rights Watch: “When North Korea gets into a diplomatic dispute with the U.S. government, they like to grab any American they can find and use them as bargaining chips.”
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Sounds like North Korea to me. What they did was disgusting and wrong, but they did it and I would think that most people aren't that surprised.

To anyone who is shocked - surprise surprise - not all countries are as gung-ho for open borders and all that other crap as some here in the US are. People live in a bubble these days - look at the idiot Olympian who got in trouble in Brazil. Another arrogant American is all Warmbier was to NK.
 
acting out or not

ponderingturtle said:
And the answer might be he did act out.
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pondering turtle,

His confession, as implausible as it sounds at the outset, contains assertions that have been denied by people (associated with the Friendship church or the Z society) who would presumably know what they were talking about. In other words, his confession looks even more absurd the more one examines it. The video is nearly worthless, leaving one with no trustworthy evidence to back up North Korea's improbable claims. His crime wasn't acting out; it was overacting.
 
How did the Z Society part of the story even get into Warmbier's confession?
Do you think it's more likely to be something that the North Korean's came up with? Or that it was part of Warmbier's explanation to them?

The latter seems more likely to me. Denials from a secret society are not surprising, neither would they be if the references to them in the confession are/were true. ""If members of the group are asked about their membership, they must leave the room rather than answer the question (or lie)"
 
Z nation

In comment #222, I quoted from his confession, which said that the Z society donates millions to the university. I find this quite doubtful. I think Mr. Warmbier might have wished to join the society and somehow it got worked into the narrative, although I don't know how.
 
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Travel ban

"State Department spokeswoman Heather Nauert said in a statement that the ban would be published next week in the Federal Register, to come into effect 30 days later.
US officials linked the move to the death of jailed American student Otto Warmbier." BBC

This is a good way to punish North Korea; I hope our allies follow suit. I put my thoughts down about his confession in a blog entry. I am going to speculate for a moment. I think Mr. Warmbier made his confession as ridiculous as he could get away with. From what I can gather, the Z society gets its jollies by shoveling snowy steps on campus. The idea of its donating millions of dollars to the university is ludicrous.
 
Chris_Halkides said:
"State Department spokeswoman Heather Nauert said in a statement that the ban would be published next week in the Federal Register, to come into effect 30 days later.
US officials linked the move to the death of jailed American student Otto Warmbier." BBC

This is a good way to punish North Korea; I hope our allies follow suit. I put my thoughts down about his confession in a blog entry. I am going to speculate for a moment. I think Mr. Warmbier made his confession as ridiculous as he could get away with. From what I can gather, the Z society gets its jollies by shoveling snowy steps on campus. The idea of its donating millions of dollars to the university is ludicrous.
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Whether they do or don't donate millions, or anything, to the university, I'm not seeing the relevance.

Certainly it seems Z Society likely does more than just get its jollies shoveling snow.
The Z Society, founded in 1892, is believed to be the oldest remaining secret society at UVA. It is one of about 13 secret societies active on Grounds, recognizable by their anonymous good works, tradition-filled celebrations of Founder’s Day and other key moments in the life of the University – and by the many symbols painted on buildings across Grounds.
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I do think your speculation that Warmbier included them in his confession in order to make it bizarre much less likely than his being in some way connected to them. Even getting a NK propaganda poster as a kind of hazing seems a much more likely explanation than what you're proposing.

You seem to want to find any possible way for Otto Warmbier to be completely blameless in this whole scenario. He might be. He might not.

Almost everyone here agrees that North Korea's treatment of him - that we know about, being his sentencing and incarceration - has been unfair by our standards. I think a lot of people are totally discounting the NK perspective.
 
UVA to Z

TofuFighter said:
Whether they do or don't donate millions, or anything, to the university, I'm not seeing the relevance.

Certainly it seems Z Society likely does more than just get its jollies shoveling snow.


I do think your speculation that Warmbier included them in his confession in order to make it bizarre much less likely than his being in some way connected to them. Even getting a NK propaganda poster as a kind of hazing seems a much more likely explanation than what you're proposing.

You seem to want to find any possible way for Otto Warmbier to be completely blameless in this whole scenario. He might be. He might not.

Almost everyone here agrees that North Korea's treatment of him - that we know about, being his sentencing and incarceration - has been unfair by our standards. I think a lot of people are totally discounting the NK perspective.
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TofuFighter,

The "millions of dollars to the university" in donations came out of Warmbier's confession. These is more example of its implausibility; can anyone produce evidence of millions of dollars flowing from the Z society to the University? I did not claim that the Z society only shoveled snow, but what exactly they do is understandably not easy to determine (thanks for the link; I had not seen that article before). I don't believe that I ever said that he couldn't have taken down the banner; only that there was no credible evidence that he did and that a different scenario seemed more likely to me. For me, it's too much of a coincidence that the British tourist went missing for several hours, a time period that roughly overlaps with the taking down (not taking) of the banner. YMMV. Also, if Warmbier really needed a banner for some kind of hazing ritual, why did he take down one that was too large for him to take with him?
EDT
It is entirely possible that someone who had been a member of the Z society as an undergraduate could make a hefty donation. IMO that is not the same thing as the society itself making such a donation.
 
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A Cavalier attitude on the part of the State Department?

Chris_Halkides said:
TofuFighter,

These is more example of its implausibility
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Oops, bad editing on my part. It should read, "This is another example of its implausibility..."

I found a comment at at story about Mr. Warmbier's parents at The Cavalier Daily, that bears on confessions in NK: "If you read the candid account of North Korea detention by fellow Ohio detainee Jeffrey Fowle, then you don't need to ponder whether Otto was coerced into confessing by the North Korean government: A few weeks earlier, Mr. Jo had told Fowle that he might be allowed to speak with international media. It would be his first chance to tell the world about his situation, and to remind the U.S. government that he needed help. At noon, Mr. Jo led Fowle to a conference room on the other side of the guesthouse, reminding him of his talking points along the way.
“Emphasize your desperation for wanting to get home and that your family needs you back,” Mr. Jo said. “Put some emotion into it.” He suggested that it might be good if Fowle cried."

IIRC Mr. Warmbier did most or all of these things in his confession. In this article the family gave its account of its interactions with the State Department before Mr. Warmbier returned.
 
There seems to be a dispute between the family and the coroner about whether there was evidence of torture.

Dr Sammarco (medical examiner) conducted an external examination and scans of Mr Warmbier's body - his parents refused a post-mortem.

"I felt very comfortable that there wasn't any evidence of trauma" to the teeth, she told reporters. "There were only small scars on his body, including his foot. One of the scars could not be explained." But she said his body and skin were in "excellent condition" for someone who had been bedridden for more than a year. She said he died from lack of oxygen and blood to the brain caused by an injury more than year before. Muscle spasms, eye movements and noises can all be consistent with oxygen deprivation.

Whilst Commander in Chief Trump seems to be going with a different story, ""Otto was tortured beyond belief". Which supports his belligerence to north Korea.
 
Planigale said:
There seems to be a dispute between the family and the coroner about whether there was evidence of torture.

Dr Sammarco (medical examiner) conducted an external examination and scans of Mr Warmbier's body - his parents refused a post-mortem.

"I felt very comfortable that there wasn't any evidence of trauma" to the teeth, she told reporters. "There were only small scars on his body, including his foot. One of the scars could not be explained." But she said his body and skin were in "excellent condition" for someone who had been bedridden for more than a year. She said he died from lack of oxygen and blood to the brain caused by an injury more than year before. Muscle spasms, eye movements and noises can all be consistent with oxygen deprivation.

Whilst Commander in Chief Trump seems to be going with a different story, ""Otto was tortured beyond belief". Which supports his belligerence to north Korea.
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How long until Trump starts attacking the ME?
 
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