US Citizen Otto Warmbier, returned from North Korea, has died

[Chris_Halkides]

Timing is everything

Politico has an article that raises some questions IMO. "The American remembers the North Korean guides concerned and angry. They asked him, “Where’s Danny [Gratton]? Is he drunk? What do you mean he’s gone?” The tourists waited in the square for hours, until their guides eventually returned them to the hotel. Gratton took several taxis and made it back sometime early in the morning, according to the American, who says he saw him walk back into the hotel."

 

[Chris_Halkides]

there is no substitute for doing one's homework

Oh please give it a rest. Fine he was a gentle giant, great guy, but this is a skeptics board. Do you do this for every thread where someone dies?

If you had followed my other comments links, you would understand that one reason I posted the comment in question was to document why Mr. Siler may be treated as a knowledgeable source about Mr. Warmbier. Being a good skeptic sometimes means going out and obtaining more information.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the deaconess and the tie to the secret society look to be fictitious

"The senior pastor at Friendship United Methodist Church in Wyoming, Ohio, told CNN he did not know the person identified by Warmbier in the KCNA story [the one who supposedly offered a car] as a deaconess there, and said Warmbier was not a member of the congregation." link

"According to a North Korean source quoted by CNN, Warmbier didn't actually steal the banner — he reportedly abandoned it because it was too big to carry away with him." link

Also from the second link: "A spokesperson for the Z Society told CNN no contact had ever been made between the secretive group and Warmbier."

 

[ponderingturtle]

Think this will impact tourism to north korea? If so will it increase or reduce it?

 

[Mumbles]

How should I say this...

I'm not shocked. I don't know why this guy was in North Korea to begin with.

Okay, to be clear, we're discussing a government that is evil. Dude executes his imagined opponents in new and imaginative ways - including shooting them with anti-aircraft weapons.

It's reasonable to be disgusted at N. Korea, and also to say "well, why even visit there?"

N. Korea's rulers are a problem. This guy did not help. That's not to say he deserved what he got, which he did not.

 

[Bob001]

Think this will impact tourism to north korea? If so will it increase or reduce it?

Since U.S. officials are talking about banning travel to the UK, and at least one of the tour operators has said it will no longer accept customers with U.S. passports, I'd bet tourism will be reduced.

 

[dudalb]

Since U.S. officials are talking about banning travel to the UK, and at least one of the tour operators has said it will no longer accept customers with U.S. passports, I'd bet tourism will be reduced.

I presume you mean NK instead of UK.......

I suspect legal US Travel for private citizens to North Korea is going to be a thing of the past. It can still be evaded, of course, but at least people will have been warned traveling to NK is a realy, really, bad idea.

 

[Trebuchet]

Since U.S. officials are talking about banning travel to the UK, and at least one of the tour operators has said it will no longer accept customers with U.S. passports, I'd bet tourism will be reduced.

I presume you mean NK instead of UK....../QUOTE]

But which country has more Muslims? Think about it.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

NK spokesman: we are the biggest victim

At Politico an AP story: "The spokesman also said that "groundless" speculation of torture and beatings could be refuted by American doctors who came to the North to examine Warmbier before his release and allegedly acknowledged that North Korean doctors had "brought him back alive" after his heart nearly stopped.

"While Pyongyang accepted U.S. demands for Warmbier's return on humanitarian grounds, Washington "totally distorted this truth and dared to clamor about 'retaliation' and 'pressure'" on "dignified" North Korea, the spokesman told KCNA.

""To make it clear, we are the biggest victim of this incident and there would be no more foolish judgment than to think we do not know how to calculate gains and losses," the spokesman said."

 

[TofuFighter]

It may have been posted or discussed earlier, but retired judge Michael Kirby agrees that the injury to Warmbier was not a result of torture or beatings.

 

[ponderingturtle]

It may have been posted or discussed earlier, but retired judge Michael Kirby agrees that the injury to Warmbier was not a result of torture or beatings.

No one is going to change their views on this though. Maybe he was an innocent man tortured to death, maybe he was a criminal who died through some other more innocuous cause. No one is going to have their minds changed.

 

[Henri McPhee]

North Korea is communist fascist.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

A different view of what Judge Kirby said

It may have been posted or discussed earlier, but retired judge Michael Kirby agrees that the injury to Warmbier was not a result of torture or beatings.

Here is a transcript of an interview from ABC in Australia. Just skimmed it, but it doesn't sound much like the Daily Mail's take, which seems to be based upon a Sky News interview.

 

[ponderingturtle]

North Korea is communist fascist.

Yes and?

 

[theprestige]

No one is going to change their views on this though. Maybe he was an innocent man tortured to death, maybe he was a criminal who died through some other more innocuous cause. No one is going to have their minds changed.

Have you tried using sarcasm?

 

[Mumbles]

I'm confused.

Why was this guy in North Korea to begin with? We know that that horrible government, why even try for it?

 

[ponderingturtle]

I'm confused.

Why was this guy in North Korea to begin with? We know that that horrible government, why even try for it?

Fun vacation area apparently.

 

[Elagabalus]

I'm confused.

Why was this guy in North Korea to begin with? We know that that horrible government, why even try for it?

I don't know, but apparently as card carrying Librul I'm supposed to make fun of him ...

 

[Chris_Halkides]

University of Delaware adjunct professor

I'm confused.

Why was this guy in North Korea to begin with? We know that that horrible government, why even try for it?

About a thousand Americans travel there per year, but I would have to say that it seems a risky proposition to do so. Maybe Otto Warmbier was naive, but I don't believe he actually took anything. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time IMO.
EDT. Attempts to link this incident to white privilege, as one former U of Delaware adjunct professor did, are...questionable.

 

[Mumbles]

About a thousand Americans travel there per year, but I would have to say that it seems a risky proposition to do so. Maybe Otto Warmbier was naive, but I don't believe he actually took anything. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time IMO.

*If* I were invited, I'd just throw up a middle finger. I find their regime disgusting, and I'll gladly insult them in public.