US Citizen Otto Warmbier, returned from North Korea, has died

[mike81]

How long until Trump starts attacking the ME?

I feel like he's already started.

I'm sure Trump knows more about this stuff than even the ME's.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

The existence of a scar on his foot is not disputed.

"The report -- an external examination, not an autopsy -- describes a 4.3-by-1.6-inch scar on Warmbier's right foot. Parents Fred and Cindy Warmbier mentioned this scar during an interview with CNN's Brooke Baldwin on Tuesday, when they broke their three-month silence." CNN
The parents have also discussed this scar in a way that differs from the coroner's report. On the one hand, the parents do not appear to be entirely reliable sources of information. On the other hand, that is a nontrivial scar in my non-expert opinion.

 

[Hungry81]

"The report -- an external examination, not an autopsy -- describes a 4.3-by-1.6-inch scar on Warmbier's right foot. Parents Fred and Cindy Warmbier mentioned this scar during an interview with CNN's Brooke Baldwin on Tuesday, when they broke their three-month silence." CNN
The parents have also discussed this scar in a way that differs from the coroner's report. On the one hand, the parents do not appear to be entirely reliable sources of information. On the other hand, that is a nontrivial scar in my non-expert opinion.

The parents have no credability and seem to be saying anything just to get air time. This may be a symptom of their trauma. If so I hope they get help. Otherwise they should just shut up and stop lying. They could have retained credability by allowing a autopsy and not talking out their asses.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

[Chris_Halkides]

How old was the scar?

I don't know what to make of the parents at this point (I agree that they are not a reliable source of information), but that scar is another matter. Otto was an athlete, and if he had that scar before he went to NK, perhaps one of his fellow athletes would have seen it.

 

[Darth Rotor]

North Korea just murdered an American citizen. President Trump should not -- and will not -- let this stand. We must go to war ASAP.

You posted this in June. It's the end of September. No war. You're slipping, Cain, or maybe Trump no longer takes your phone calls.

But there was no reason in the world for him to be there.

People do stupid stuff all the time. Sometimes, it gets them killed. Such is life.

"At least 16 US citizens have been detained in North Korea in the past 10 years, and three have yet to be released.

But this fool and his parents figured "it could never happen to me." I've got a lot of dead friends who believed the same thing (aviation accidents).
As to the Z society. Good CT forum fodder.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

The Warmbier family is suing North Korea

Mr. Warmbier's parents are suing the North Korean government. "Under U.S. law, private citizens are not eligible to sue foreign countries. But Trump placed North Korea on the State Department’s list of state sponsors of terrorism in November, restoring it to a list it had been on from 1988 to 2008. That opened it to lawsuits from victims of terrorism." link

Perhaps we will find out more about what actually happened to him will now be forthcoming*. A quick glance at this thread suggests to me that there has been a paucity of undisputed information.
EDT
My intention was to write something like "Perhaps we will find out more about what actually happened to him; in other words, more information will now be forthcoming."

 

[Darat]

Mr. Warmbier's parents are suing the North Korean government. "Under U.S. law, private citizens are not eligible to sue foreign countries. But Trump placed North Korea on the State Department’s list of state sponsors of terrorism in November, restoring it to a list it had been on from 1988 to 2008. That opened it to lawsuits from victims of terrorism." link

Perhaps we will find out more about what actually happened to him will now be forthcoming. A quick glance at this thread suggests to me that there has been a paucity of undisputed information.

Why?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the process of discovery may turn up something

Darat,

Good question. There is an implicit assumption in what I said, namely that the facts offered in the suit are more likely to be true than, for example, what the parents say in interviews with the press. For example, the suit mentions the scar on Mr. Warmbier's foot and the condition of Mr. Warmbier's teeth (both mentioned in this thread), but I have not yet seen the text of the suit itself. If the suit goes forward, there is also the process of discovery, which may provide more information.

 

[Darat]

Darat,

Good question. There is an implicit assumption in what I said, namely that the facts offered in the suit are more likely to be true than, for example, what the parents say in interviews with the press. For example, the suit mentions the scar on Mr. Warmbier's foot and the condition of Mr. Warmbier's teeth (both mentioned in this thread), but I have not yet seen the text of the suit itself. If the suit goes forward, there is also the process of discovery, which may provide more information.

Only if the North Koreans play ball and there is no way that will happen, otherwise all there is is the details that are already publicly known??

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Discovery is a two-way street

I am not a lawyer, but it is my understanding that both sides have certain rights in this regard, meaning that information that the Warmbier family has might be discoverable. However as you indicated, the North Koreans may not participate in the legal process at all. If so, then the only new information would be what might be in the suit itself. Previously I indicated that I would give more weight to information found there than found in some other places, but there is no guarantee that it is accurate.

 

[autumn1971]

Any American who travels to NK as a tourist is providing support to an enemy nation with whom the US is at war (or continuing police action.) That is the definition of treason. There needn't be a travel-ban, there should be trials in the US for anyone who makes it back.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

What caused the lack of oxygen?

This is an old article, but it one of the more thorough that I have seen in its discussion of Mr. Warmbier's medical condition upon returning to the United States. "Even if the 22-year-old simply suffered a (very rare) cardiac arrest of some organic cause, brain injury this severe would mean that he was not resuscitated for a prolonged period."

 

[Planigale]

Mr. Warmbier's parents are suing the North Korean government. "Under U.S. law, private citizens are not eligible to sue foreign countries. But Trump placed North Korea on the State Department’s list of state sponsors of terrorism in November, restoring it to a list it had been on from 1988 to 2008. That opened it to lawsuits from victims of terrorism." link

Perhaps we will find out more about what actually happened to him will now be forthcoming*. A quick glance at this thread suggests to me that there has been a paucity of undisputed information.
EDT
My intention was to write something like "Perhaps we will find out more about what actually happened to him; in other words, more information will now be forthcoming."

I am sure that anti North Korean feeling will result in a jury decision in favour of the family, but the idea that someone who committed a crime was tried and imprisoned is a victim of terrorism seems to stretch the concept of terrorism. I would also argue if being abused or dying in prison is defined as being a victim of terrorism then there are many victims of terrorism in US prisons (and elsewhere). Certainly all those transiting through Guantanamo would seem to victims of terrorism on this definition.

 

[Planigale]

This is an old article, but it one of the more thorough that I have seen in its discussion of Mr. Warmbier's medical condition upon returning to the United States. "Even if the 22-year-old simply suffered a (very rare) cardiac arrest of some organic cause, brain injury this severe would mean that he was not resuscitated for a prolonged period."

In this situation a prolonged period means minutes. If resuscitation in hospital with immediate effective well trained teams is not successful within 30 minutes then irreversible brain damage is assumed and efforts stopped. The likelihood that in the event of a cardiac arrest in a North Korean prison (or probably most prisons) that immediate effective resuscitation could be provided is low.

Having some but low oxygen delivery to the brain (ie short of an actual cardiac arrest) from e.g. carbon monoxide poisoning over hours would have a similar effect. A leaky stove in a cell over a North Korean winter would easily produce this scenario. To any inspecting guard the prisoner in the room would seem to be asleep, but in reality the carbon monoxide accumulation would result in slow brain damage due to blocking oxygen to the brain.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

not terrorism, but perhaps a failure of care

I am sure that anti North Korean feeling will result in a jury decision in favour of the family, but the idea that someone who committed a crime was tried and imprisoned is a victim of terrorism seems to stretch the concept of terrorism. I would also argue if being abused or dying in prison is defined as being a victim of terrorism then there are many victims of terrorism in US prisons (and elsewhere). Certainly all those transiting through Guantanamo would seem to victims of terrorism on this definition.

One, Mr. Warmbier was convicted of taking down (not actually taking) a banner in a hotel hallway. The evidence that he did so is that the North Korean government said so; a film of someone taking down a banner; and his confession. Not one of these three pieces of evidence is worth a plugged nickel IMO (see upthread for my reasons). Perhaps because people in the US thought he was guilty, Mr. Warmbier's case has not engendered much sympathy in this country, at least from what I can tell.

Two, it is fair to say that this is not terrorism by what is generally understood that terrorism means (BTW I spoke out against Guantanamo a long time ago. It felt as if I were shouting at the ocean with pebbles in my mouth). Nevertheless, if a government imprisons someone (rightly or wrongly), it seems to me that they are morally obligated to care for that person in a humane way (I cannot say what the legal obligations are). If Mr. Warmbier fell victim to carbon monoxide poisoning (an interesting hypothesis), then it is incumbent upon the North Korean government to say so. The fact that they did not is one pebble on the scale that this did not happen.

 

[ponderingturtle]

One, Mr. Warmbier was convicted of taking down (not actually taking) a banner in a hotel hallway. The evidence that he did so is that the North Korean government said so; a film of someone taking down a banner; and his confession. Not one of these three pieces of evidence is worth a plugged nickel IMO (see upthread for my reasons). Perhaps because people in the US thought he was guilty, Mr. Warmbier's case has not engendered much sympathy in this country, at least from what I can tell.

The evidence that he didn't do it is completely lacking. It seems pretty weird to do arrest him for no reason.

Two, it is fair to say that this is not terrorism by what is generally understood that terrorism means (BTW I spoke out against Guantanamo a long time ago. It felt as if I were shouting at the ocean with pebbles in my mouth). Nevertheless, if a government imprisons someone (rightly or wrongly), it seems to me that they are morally obligated to care for that person in a humane way (I cannot say what the legal obligations are). If Mr. Warmbier fell victim to carbon monoxide poisoning (an interesting hypothesis), then it is incumbent upon the North Korean government to say so. The fact that they did not is one pebble on the scale that this did not happen.

But you can shut off their water and laugh at them as they die with out serious consequence in this country, so why should they take better care of our citizens than we do?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

guilty of a different crime

The evidence that he didn't do it is completely lacking. It seems pretty weird to do arrest him for no reason.

It is up to the prosecution to present a convincing case for guilt, and they failed to do so. On the contrary, the cockamamie notion he removed a banner for the reasons provided is not worth the bother of laughing at (see upthread for my reasons). Mr. Warbier was guilty...of overacting a his trial.*

There is a more plausible explanation of what actually happened, based on the fact that Mr. Warmbier's roommate went missing for several hours owing to inebriation, the approximate time that the banner was alleged to have been taken down. This caused great consternation among the guides (one does not simply wander around the capital city on one's own, from what I can gather) Mr. Warmbier and his roommate did not get their customary wake-up call on the morning of their scheduled departure. Either there was a mix-up, and the roommate was the person who was supposed to have been detained, or someone made the choice to grab Warmbier for some other reason; perhaps being an American, he had more propaganda value.
EDT
*Of course it is possible that he took down the banner for reasons other than those floated at the trial.

 

[Planigale]

It is up to the prosecution to present a convincing case for guilt, and they failed to do so. On the contrary, the cockamamie notion he removed a banner for the reasons provided is not worth the bother of laughing at (see upthread for my reasons). Mr. Warbier was guilty...of overacting a his trial.*

There is a more plausible explanation of what actually happened, based on the fact that Mr. Warmbier's roommate went missing for several hours owing to inebriation, the approximate time that the banner was alleged to have been taken down. This caused great consternation among the guides (one does not simply wander around the capital city on one's own, from what I can gather) Mr. Warmbier and his roommate did not get their customary wake-up call on the morning of their scheduled departure. Either there was a mix-up, and the roommate was the person who was supposed to have been detained, or someone made the choice to grab Warmbier for some other reason; perhaps being an American, he had more propaganda value.
EDT
*Of course it is possible that he took down the banner for reasons other than those floated at the trial.

He may or not have been guilty. As Chris will know wrongful convictions are a feature of all legal systems. Certainly his punishment seems disproportionate to the offence to us, but across the world there are cases of people convicted of crimes that do not exist in other jurisdictions.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

autopsy

It has long been my working hypothesis that what happened to Mr. Warmbier was not intended to have happened, at least by their leaders. That is one reason which makes the carbon monoxide poisoning hypothesis an attractive one. Would an autopsy have been able to answer this sort of question?

 

[Planigale]

It has long been my working hypothesis that what happened to Mr. Warmbier was not intended to have happened, at least by their leaders. That is one reason which makes the carbon monoxide poisoning hypothesis an attractive one. Would an autopsy have been able to answer this sort of question?

No. Not this long after. There may be differences in the distribution of brain damage in response to carbon monoxide poisoning versus profound prolonged hypotension, but prolonged hypoxia from other causes (e.g. botulism as claimed or attempted suicide) would be similar to carbon monoxide poisoning. However the differences are not great and it may not be possible to distinguish damage from low blood flow as compared with normal blood flow carrying a low amount of oxygen. The brain damage could certainly be found in someone who was treated for a serious infection with profound sepsis who barely survived in a modern western hospital. Actually the North Koreans could have done the best they could for this young man and this could be the outcome. His lack of bed sores despite profound disability does mean he was very well cared for for some time.