Paul Bethke vs the 613 Mitzvot

[halleyscomet]

The Creator called people to be holy—so naturally you will find unholy people accepting a compromise—it is called being lukewarm, compromising.

Ah, like you, and your compromises not only on obeying the Mitzvot but even discussing them.

You're so lukewarm, so terrified of committing, that you can't even bring yourself to weigh in on if slavery is still permissible in God's eyes!

 

[Jodie]

Rev 3:15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

Then look to the Ten Commandments for your guidance. Lying also includes self deception and you need to pray for discernment first before you can work out what you can do to provide spiritual service.

Mat 24:10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
Mat 24:11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
Mat 24:12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
Mat 24:13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.Mat 24:14 And this Gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the END will come.

Faith means believing that there is a purpose or creator where evidence is lacking. The problem with using religious text in their literal form relates to the fallibility of man's imperfect understanding of anything outside of the material realm, multiple translations of these texts where there aren't exact correlations to the terms or concepts used, and lack of discernment of what is best for the individual versus the community. Many will rationalize using scripture that is itself an imperfect translation of the creator's will to justify doing evil. The end of the material world will eventually come but it will be our choice to continue to grow as individuals or to rejoin the creator.

So we are living in a time when the Church will be purged of all its heresies, and the truth will avail.

The truth will prevail with or without a church because that is what everlasting life is about.

 

[JayUtah]

The Creator called people to be holy...

You are not holy, as this thread demonstrates.

—so naturally you will find unholy people accepting a compromise—

You compromise on the mitzvot. Therefore, contrary to your claims, you are unholy.

Then Ten Commands are the means to identify the true believers—the Torah is there to identify sin.

Since you are lying about your degree of obedience to the mitzvot, you are also in violation of the Ten Commandments.

 

[halleyscomet]

Thou Shalt Maybe Kill: 5 Bible Facts Everyone Gets Wrong

While an entertaining read, the section "The Ten Commandments Aren't What You Think" is particularly relevant to this thread.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Thou Shalt Maybe Kill: 5 Bible Facts Everyone Gets Wrong

While an entertaining read, the section "The Ten Commandments Aren't What You Think" is particularly relevant to this thread.

I am not going to comment on the insert—but the Ten Commandments as they are known, form the basis of the faith, as recorded in Exodus 20.

No matter which way they are viewed they still maintain the order of priority in the faith, individually and collectively they appear throughout the Scriptures. They are the basis of judgement and they are the foundation of the faith.
Where ever the Creator meats out justice it is a result of the violation of the Covenant the substance of all behavior.

The keeping of the Decalogue is the essence of the faith, there can be no faith without the Decalouge as Jesus stated---(Mat 22:37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbour as yourself.'
Mat 22:40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

This is love for God—( 1John_5:3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, )

So, the Decalogue is known as the Covenant, and upon this all other laws hinge.

Exodus_34:28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the COVENANT—the Ten Commandments.

Do not lie.
Do not steal.
Do not commit adultery.
Do not covet your neighbours wife.
Do not murder.

This is what we have in the world today, all crime and corruption stems from these, as you know!!

 

[halleyscomet]

I am not going to comment on the insert—but the Ten Commandments as they are known, form the basis of the faith, as recorded in Exodus 20.



No matter which way they are viewed they still maintain the order of priority in the faith, individually and collectively they appear throughout the Scriptures. They are the basis of judgement and they are the foundation of the faith.

Where ever the Creator meats out justice it is a result of the violation of the Covenant the substance of all behavior.



The keeping of the Decalogue is the essence of the faith, there can be no faith without the Decalouge as Jesus stated---(Mat 22:37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment.

Mat 22:39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbour as yourself.'

Mat 22:40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."



This is love for God—( 1John_5:3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, )



So, the Decalogue is known as the Covenant, and upon this all other laws hinge.



Exodus_34:28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the COVENANT—the Ten Commandments.



Do not lie.

Do not steal.

Do not commit adultery.

Do not covet your neighbours wife.

Do not murder.



This is what we have in the world today, all crime and corruption stems from these, as you know!!

I am amused that in your ignorant rant about the Ten Commandments you could only manage to remember five of them.

 

[Jodie]

So if your neighbor is an infidel how do you reconcile the commandment to "love thy neighbor as thyself"? I love you but you still have to die thus breaking yet another commandment "thou shalt not murder"?

 

[Border Reiver]

I am not going to comment on the insert—but the Ten Commandments as they are known, form the basis of the faith, as recorded in Exodus 20.

No matter which way they are viewed they still maintain the order of priority in the faith, individually and collectively they appear throughout the Scriptures. They are the basis of judgement and they are the foundation of the faith.
Where ever the Creator meats out justice it is a result of the violation of the Covenant the substance of all behavior.

The keeping of the Decalogue is the essence of the faith, there can be no faith without the Decalouge as Jesus stated---(Mat 22:37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbour as yourself.'
Mat 22:40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

This is love for God—( 1John_5:3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, )

So, the Decalogue is known as the Covenant, and upon this all other laws hinge.

Exodus_34:28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the COVENANT—the Ten Commandments.

Do not lie.
Do not steal.
Do not commit adultery.
Do not covet your neighbours wife.
Do not murder.

This is what we have in the world today, all crime and corruption stems from these, as you know!!

You realize that the Ten Commandments stated in Exodus 34 do NOT contain those commandments right?

The Ten Commandments there are:

1. For thou shalt worship no other god (Ex 34:14)
2. Make no molten images (Ex 34:17)
3. Keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Ex 34:18)
4. The firstborn people, sheep, goats and cattle shall be given (sacrificed) to God (save for asses and people, who shall be redeemed with a lamb) (Ex 34:19-20)
5. On the seventh day do no work (Ex 34:21)
6. Observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end (Ex 34:22)
7. Do not offer the blood of the sacrifice with leavened bread (Ex 34:25)
8. Do not leave the Passover sacrifice until morning (Ex 34:25)
9. Bring the firstfruits of your lands to the House of the Lord (Ex 34:26)
10. Do not boil a kid in his mother's milk. (Ex 34:26)

Only three of the Commandments found in Exodus 34 - and are the ones that make up the Covenant - are found in the list commonly cited as the Ten Commandments, and the five you've cited do not form a part of the Covenant.

 

[halleyscomet]

Since Paul Bethke has refused to respond explicitly to questions about if he does or does not believe the slavery laws still apply, I am forced to apply a little logic.

The Bible condemns a woman to death if she is raped within the city wall and does not call out. This the legal concept at play is "Qui tacet consentit" or "Silence gives consent". The Biblical argument for executing rape victims who do not call out for help hinges upon the concept that by not calling out for help she consented to the sex. While I find that concept odious and contemptible, it is Biblically consistent.

Since Paul Bethke is very big on the Mitzvot, it is reasonable for us to apply the concept of "Qui tacet consentit" to his adherence to the Mitzvot. The best part is if he disagrees with our conclusions, he can simply say what he ACTUALLY believes about the Mitzvot. At any point, he can simply raise his voice to revoke the consent he has provided through his silence.

Now, the Bible endorses slavery. This is true in both the Old and New Testaments. Furthermore, Paul Bethke is an explicit and enthusiastic advocate of apartheid. Therefore, it is clear that Paul Bethke can be assumed to also condone slavery, in accordance with scripture. Condoning slavery is consistent with his clear belief that some races are supposed to be subservient and with his stated attitudes about adherence to Biblical laws. Indeed, it would be out of character for him to condemn slavery or diverge from the Bible on the topic.

As such we can assume Paul Bethke believes the following laws still apply and would follow them if slavery were legal in his place of residence:

Ex. 21:2 — Purchase a Hebrew slave in accordance with the prescribed laws
Ex. 21:8 — Redeem Jewish maidservants
Ex. 21:8 — Betroth the Jewish maidservant
Ex. 21:8 — The master must not sell his maidservant

Unfortunately for the slaves. Paul Bethke has made it clear he does NOT observe ANY of the Jewish festivals, regardless of if it is theologically reasonable for him to avoid them. this means the following laws is not among those he will observe:

Lev. 25:9 — To blow the Shofar on the tenth of Tishrei to free the slaves

This means while Paul Bethke's theology allows slavery and indentured servitude, it does not provide the built-in mechanism to free some people after a period of service.

Lev. 25:39 — Not to have him [An indentured servant Jew] do menial slave labor
Lev. 25:42 — Not to sell him [An indentured servant Jew] as a slave is sold
Lev. 25:43 — Not to work him [An indentured servant Jew] oppressively
Lev. 25:46 — Canaanite slaves must work forever unless injured in one of their limbs
Lev. 25:53 — Not to allow a non-Jew to work him oppressively
Lev. 27:2 — To estimate the value of people as determined by the Torah
Deut. 21:11 — Keep the laws of the captive woman
Deut. 21:14 — Not to sell her into slavery
Deut. 21:14 — Not to retain her for servitude after having sexual relations with her
Deut. 23:16 — Not to extradite a slave who fled to (Biblical) Israel
Deut. 23:16 — Not to wrong a slave who has come to Israel for refuge

WHEW. That's a lot of additions to the "Follows" count!

Paul Bethke, a question:

For the purposes of following the Mitzvot on slavery, would you consider the laws about the treatment of a Jew sold into slavery among Jews to also apply to a Christian sold into slavery among Christians?

Would you consider the laws about a "Cannanite" slave to appy to non-Chirstians, or would you also apply a racial criteria?

 

[halleyscomet]

Paul Bethke, have you, as commanded by the Mitzvot you claim to follow, written a Torah scroll?

Deut. 31:19 — Each male must write a Torah scroll

 

[JayUtah]

...upon this [Decalogue] all other laws hinge.

Even if that were true, it doesn't free you from having to discuss all those other laws. Those laws exist. So stop retreating back to the familiar territory of the Ten Commandments and talk to us about the mitzvot you say you perfectly obey.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Even if that were true, it doesn't free you from having to discuss all those other laws. Those laws exist. So stop retreating back to the familiar territory of the Ten Commandments and talk to us about the mitzvot you say you perfectly obey.

Now which laws still apply and which laws have been replaced with an advanced practice—
Leviticus 18 still applies as it describes the types of sexual sin--Lev 18:26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled.

As does--Lev 19:19 "'Keep my decrees. "'Do not mate different kinds of animals. "'Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. "'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

Lev 19:23 "'When you enter the land and plant any kind of fruit tree, regard its fruit as forbidden. For three years you are to consider it forbidden; it must not be eaten.

Lev 19:35 "'Do not use dishonest standards when measuring length, weight or quantity.

Lev 19:25 But in the fifth year you may eat its fruit. In this way your harvest will be increased. I am the LORD your God.

Lev 19:28 "'Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD.

One can go on and on—all laws have relevance to life---there is no law that should be rejected, but all laws must be considered in their application.

So one must take each law and evaluate it in accordance with laws already accepted by society.

This laws still has relevance and apply.
Lev 19:31 "'Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.

Deu 18:9 When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there.
Deu 18:10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft,
Deu 18:11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.
Deu 18:12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you.
Deu 19:15 One witness is not enough to convict a man accused of any crime or offense he may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Deu 19:16 If a malicious witness takes the stand to accuse a man of a crime,
Deu 19:17 the two men involved in the dispute must stand in the presence of the LORD before the priests and the judges who are in office at the time.
Deu 19:18 The judges must make a thorough investigation, and if the witness proves to be a liar, giving false testimony against his brother,
Deu 19:19 then do to him as he intended to do to his brother. You must purge the evil from among you.

So you SEE there are many laws that can be imposed—and there are some laws that apply ONLY to those living in Israel.

BUT again, each law must be scrutinized---BUT again the Ten Commands are the first laws to be applied to determine a person status before the Creator.

Abortion is similar to what the nations were doing to their unwanted babies--Deut_12:31 You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.

You SEE that there is a parallel---in later times Israel practiced the same thing that the heathen did---2 Kings_17:17 They sacrificed their sons and daughters in the fire. They practiced divination and sorcery and sold themselves to do evil in the eyes of the LORD, provoking him to anger.

So it is these detestable practices that provoke the Creator to anger as it is today.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Paul Bethke, have you, as commanded by the Mitzvot you claim to follow, written a Torah scroll?

Deu 31:19 "Now write down for yourselves this song and teach it to the Israelites and have them sing it, so that it may be a witness for me against them.

BUT this was the song Moses was to teach Israel, not for each person to write down, as they would not have the means, nor could many write.

BUT this is what is required for a king to do, which I have done with ink and paper—
Deu 17:18 When he takes the throne of his kingdom, he is to write for himself on a scroll a copy of this law, taken from that of the priests, who are Levites.
Deu 17:19 It is to be with him, and he is to read it all the days of his life so that he may learn to revere the LORD his God and follow carefully all the words of this law and these decrees
Deu 17:20 and not consider himself better than his brothers and turn from the law to the right or to the left. Then he and his descendants will reign a long time over his kingdom in Israel.

It is known, that when you write down things you are prone to remember them—so I remember all the laws and decrees, precepts, and commands, and I meditate on them all the time, as I compare the world at large according to what is recorded.

Psalm_111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise.
Psalm_119:4 You have laid down precepts that are to be fully obeyed.
Psalm_119:15 I meditate on your precepts and consider your ways.

Psalm_119:63 I am a friend to all who fear you, to all who follow your precepts.

 

[Peregrinus]

Now which laws still apply and which laws have been replaced with an advanced practice—

snip quote mining deflection

So it is these detestable practices that provoke the Creator to anger as it is today.

There was a radical - the Romans thought him a petty rabble-rouser - some few centuries ago who stated not one jot or tittle was to be taken from the law. "Advanced practices...." Pfffttt!! And that final sentence is both a grammatical mess and semantically void.

 

[Peregrinus]

BUT this was the song Moses was to teach ...

It's a likelihood approaching certainty there never was "a Moses" but a cultural conflation of historical and mythic elements gathered over several centuries.

 

[Paul Bethke]

It's a likelihood approaching certainty there never was "a Moses" but a cultural conflation of historical and mythic elements gathered over several centuries.

Oh dear if there was no Moses then we are certainly doomed to uncertainty---BUT wait there is hope as the uncertain Book of Moses states--Deut_18:18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.

So now we must wait to SEE if this will happen—what say ye??

 

[abaddon]

Oh dear if there was no Moses then we are certainly doomed to uncertainty---BUT wait there is hope as the uncertain Book of Moses states--Deut_18:18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.

So now we must wait to SEE if this will happen—what say ye??

I say it's baloney.

 

[JayUtah]

One can go on and on—

Yes, that's the purpose of the thread. Please cooperate.

So one must take each law and evaluate it in accordance with laws already accepted by society.

That's what we're doing. You refuse to cooperate. Halleyscomet has made a list of all 613 mitzvot and is attempting to discuss each one in turn. But every time you get stuck talking about one you obviously don't understand, you fall back to the Ten Commandments and say that's all you need to know. We suspect you're doing this because you don't want to admit that your claim to perfectly obey all the mitzvot was hasty and you can't support it. So when faced with a mitzvah you haven't really thought about, you want to change horses and say that your "perfect" adherence to the much-simpler Ten Commandments satisfies your claim.

You don't get to lower the bar just because you discovered you can't clear it. You're claiming a very tall level of compliance, one that literally sets you apart from all other believers on the planet. You don't get to compromise on compliance and keep the purported lofty standard. That's just a delusion of grandeur.

Now that you've confirmed that Hallyscomet's plan is the one you endorse, I expect a whole lot more cooperation out of you. Will I get it?

 

[JayUtah]

BUT this was the song Moses was to teach Israel, not for each person to write down, as they would not have the means, nor could many write.

That's not what the scripture underlying the mitzvah is talking about.

It is known, that when you write down things you are prone to remember them—so I remember all the laws and decrees, precepts, and commands, and I meditate on them all the time, as I compare the world at large according to what is recorded.

You could have just said "no" without first trying to weasel out of the question and then hiding the unflattering answer in a wall of screed.

I guess we can put this one down as one that Bethke doesn't follow.

 

[Peregrinus]

Oh dear if there was no Moses then we are certainly doomed to uncertainty---BUT wait there is hope as the uncertain Book of Moses states--Deut_18:18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.

So now we must wait to SEE if this will happen—what say ye??

There is no "Book of Moses." There are writings, easily proven to involve at least 4 differing sources, that are traditionally ascribed to a never-evidenced Moses. Including material "he wrote" about events after his own death.