Paul Bethke vs the 613 Mitzvot

[Zivan]

Well the words of Jesus certainly apply to you--Matt_7:6 "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs.

You SEE Comet it is true, that people who do not understand truth revert to insult.
So you remain outside--Rev_22:15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

<snip rambling>

So wallow, wallow.

So is that why you revert to insults?

 

[Zivan]

What's your point?

Is there a stage where you'll actually RESPOND to what I wrote or are you just going to circle your tail posting unrelated passages while lying about your comprehension of Scripture?

Your act is getting dull again Paul Bethke. You've fallen into another repetitive rut.

This is certainly true.

PB, boring repetition and no relevant response..............again.

 

[Paul Bethke]

What's your point?

Is there a stage where you'll actually RESPOND to what I wrote or are you just going to circle your tail posting unrelated passages while lying about your comprehension of Scripture?

Your act is getting dull again Paul Bethke. You've fallen into another repetitive rut.

Well is not everyone doing just the same---I state that prophecy is intertwined in the Scriptures and nobody understands. Not all Scripture is prophecy, so if a person cannot understand what prophecy is then the Scriptures are merely line upon line, words upon words—meaningless.
Ecclesiastes 1:2 "Meaningless! Meaningless!" says the Teacher. "Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless."

So you have pursued every avenue and still you have not accomplished your purpose—I remain steadfast in my faith---but thank you for your attempts they have given me insight into folly.

I still maintain that this is superior-- Romans 2:18 if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the Torah.;

 

[JayUtah]

So as I have stated on so many occasions—the Torah is my wisdom.
A wisdom and knowledge and understanding and insight that you will never have.

No, Bethke. Repeatedly calling your critics stupid is childish. This thread has tested your knowledge of the Torah, and we can count the many times it has come up short. You're going to need better arguments than just making up a new way of being right that only you get to use.

 

[JayUtah]

...if a person cannot understand what prophecy is...

Making up a new definition for "prophecy" doesn't save you here, Bethke. You are not a prophet. You do not have some magical special wisdom that no one else can have. When it comes to ordinary knowledge of the Torah, we find that many people have studied it harder than you and have come to different conclusions that you do about it.

So you have pursued every avenue and still you have not accomplished your purpose—I remain steadfast in my faith...

You mistake our purposes as that of shaking your faith. It is clear nothing will do that because you are obviously entrenched in your beliefs. The purpose is to see whether your faith is predicated upon reason. It clearly is not. Part of your expression of faith is your claim variously to be perfectly obedient to the classical mitzvot, or to be more obedient than any other. We have discovered that this claim is not consistent with the evidence.

 

[Border Reiver]

So prophecy in Scripture has a far different meaning to the Oxford dictionary and any other dictionary.

Not being able to read the original languages how would you know?

Bethkeianity might tell people that its founder, chief (only) prophet and bottlewasher is the only human ever to have a perfect knowledge of the intent of the originators of the Scriptures, despite not being able to read the source documents in their original languages, but the rest of us are under no obligation to pay attention, or attach any credence to the words of a person who when confronted with the import of his own words, changes the definitions of the problematic words to suit his needs at that particular instant.

"I follow the LAW" =/= "I follow some of the Mitzvot, based on my prejudices and if its not too inconvenient."

 

[Paul Bethke]

Making up a new definition for "prophecy" doesn't save you here, Bethke. You are not a prophet. You do not have some magical special wisdom that no one else can have. When it comes to ordinary knowledge of the Torah, we find that many people have studied it harder than you and have come to different conclusions that you do about it.

It is not new in actual fact it is original, prophecy is understanding the will of the Creator, it is as the Apostle Paul stated, an ability to fathom.---- 1Cor 13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge

You SEE it is as Job stated---Job_11:7 "Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty?

Jesus stated the following---Luke_8:10 He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, "'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'

So, this is true of you—you cannot understand prophecy, it is a secret.
Jesus said of the Teachers in his day that though they studied they did not understand, it is the same today with those who as you say have studied.

Wisdom is a revelation, it is the ability to understand how to implement what the Creator has ordained, it is a practical way in which to decipher knowledge.

So why do you study the Scriptures, it is meaningless to you.

You mistake our purposes as that of shaking your faith. It is clear nothing will do that because you are obviously entrenched in your beliefs. The purpose is to see whether your faith is predicated upon reason. It clearly is not. Part of your expression of faith is your claim variously to be perfectly obedient to the classical mitzvot, or to be more obedient than any other. We have discovered that this claim is not consistent with the evidence.

But this shows that you do not understand prophecy---Rom 2:20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the Torah the embodiment of knowledge and truth—

The laws were a foreshadow of something more perfect, based upon the Torah, the Torah will always be there so that it can be understood what can be more perfect. ----- Heb_10:1 The Torah is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves.

Heb 10:1 The Jewish Law is not a full and faithful model of the real things; it is only a faint outline of the good things to come.

So knowledge of the Torah equip us to understand the goods things that will come—This has happened when Jesus came to this earth—he directed us to the good things. So again I am not nullifying the laws, but only embarking on the good things that the Torah points to.

This must be understood in the light of the Temple as important as it was---so now the Temple is still present in the believers. 2Co_6:16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people."
NOW perhaps you have a small spark of understanding of the better thing to come—but this is prophetic.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Not being able to read the original languages how would you know?

Bethkeianity might tell people that its founder, chief (only) prophet and bottlewasher is the only human ever to have a perfect knowledge of the intent of the originators of the Scriptures, despite not being able to read the source documents in their original languages, but the rest of us are under no obligation to pay attention, or attach any credence to the words of a person who when confronted with the import of his own words, changes the definitions of the problematic words to suit his needs at that particular instant.

"I follow the LAW" =/= "I follow some of the Mitzvot, based on my prejudices and if its not too inconvenient."

We have today an accurate understanding of the original copies in the many translations.

So how is it the believers in Yeshua become the Temples of the living Creator?
2Co_6:16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people."

Now these are not my words, but the words that emanate from a man who has wisdom from Yahweh.
2Peter 3:15 Look on our Lord's patience as the opportunity he is giving you to be saved, just as our dear friend Paul wrote to you, using the wisdom that God gave him.


James_1:5 But if any of you lack wisdom, you should pray to God, who will give it to you; because God gives generously and graciously to all.

What I am saying is that some can read the original copies, but do not know how to decipher the prophetic content, as I have illustrated above.

The Torah will never cease to exist as the means to impart understanding of the things God has prepared for those that love him.--- Rom 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

So the New Covenant is that which informs us of the better things that God has prepared for those who love him.

So I understand that you do not understand prophecy.

 

[Zivan]

PB: "I follow all the mitzvahs (sic)".

Critics: "Why do you say that? It has been shown, as public record, that you do NOT follow the mitzvot".

PB: "But this shows that you do not understand prophecy".

 

[JayUtah]

It is not new in actual fact it is original, prophecy is understanding the will of the Creator, it is as the Apostle Paul stated, an ability to fathom.

Maybe at some point you will get the idea that you can't redefine words and just expect everyone to follow along.

So, this is true of you—you cannot understand prophecy, it is a secret.

No, Bethke, there is no magical body of knowledge that only you have.

...they did not understand, it is the same today with those who as you say have studied.

No, Bethke, everyone isn't stupid except for you.

So why do you study the Scriptures, it is meaningless to you.

People's holy writings aren't meaningless to me, but they likely have a different meaning to me than to you. I study holy writings to attempt to discover how people come to believe about them what they do. This helps me understand the foundations upon which their social and moral frameworks are based, and helps me get along better in society. Even if I don't believe the religions built around these writings, I find value in understanding them intellectually.

In your case I can find no part of your rationale that isn't best explained by ego reinforcement. It gives you some measure of comfort to believe you are perfectly obedient to your deity's commands, but when we look for facts to support that belief we find you are no different than the "cafeteria Christians" you profess to improve upon.

But this shows that you do not understand prophecy--

No, chanting your magic word doesn't fix your problem here, Bethke. Insisting your critics can never perceive your wisdom is a poor argument.

Make any excuse you want for non-compliance. It doesn't change the fact that you don't comply with the mitzvot as you said. It's one thing to qualify your claim after the fact. It's another to maintain the claim over and above those who offer the same qualifications. You can't claim to be better than others when you take exactly the same shortcuts as they do.

NOW perhaps you have a small spark of understanding of the better thing to come—but this is prophetic.

It's so cute that you think you're actually teaching people. Most of your critics seem willing only to indulge your ignorance only as far as it entertains them to respond to you. You have no followers. You're not a prophet. You're not a teacher. You present no more compelling a case than any number of self-righteous religious zealots I can name. Whatever you may believe about yourself, none of your critics is going to address your arguments on the foisted premise that you are some Christian master or saint.

 

[JayUtah]

We have today an accurate understanding of the original copies in the many translations.

No, this was refuted in your case.

So I understand that you do not understand prophecy.

No, there is no magic body of wisdom that only you possess.

 

[Zivan]

Critics: "You can not read the original languages".

PB: "We have today an accurate understanding of the original copies in the many translations".

Critics: "There are NO "original copies". Also, you do not know if a translation of the original languages is accurate or not since you have no clue what the original languages actually say. You version shop and cherry pick".

PB: "So I understand that you do not understand prophecy".

 

[JayUtah]

PB: "I follow all the mitzvahs (sic)".

Critics: "Why do you say that? It has been shown, as public record, that you do NOT follow the mitzvot".

PB: "But this shows that you do not understand prophecy".

It's even funnier in the unabridged form.

PB: I follow all the mitzvahs

Critic: What about this one?

PB: I didn't mean that one; it requres a temple.

Critic: What about this one?

PB: I didn't mean that one; it's only for Jews.

Critic: What about this one?

PB: I didn't mean that one; it was superseded by Jesus.

Critic: What about this one?

PB: I didn't mean that one; it's too obtrusive in modern society.

Critic: So in short, you take the typical Reformed Christian approach to the Torah?

PB: No, I don't. You just don't understand prophecy.

 

[Zivan]

It's even funnier in the unabridged form.

PB: I follow all the mitzvahs

Critic: What about this one?

PB: I didn't mean that one; it requres a temple.

Critic: What about this one?

PB: I didn't mean that one; it's only for Jews.

Critic: What about this one?

PB: I didn't mean that one; it was superseded by Jesus.

Critic: What about this one?

PB: I didn't mean that one; it's too obtrusive in modern society.

Critic: So in short, you take the typical Reformed Christian approach to the Torah?

PB: No, I don't. You just don't understand prophecy.

ROTFLMAO!

 

[Border Reiver]

We have today an accurate understanding of the original copies in the many translations.

How do you know?

What I am saying is that some can read the original copies, but do not know how to decipher the prophetic content, as I have illustrated above.

Whereas if you change the meanings of words to mean what you want them to the prophetic meaning is just what you thought it was supposed to be.

 

[halleyscomet]

I state that prophecy is intertwined in the Scriptures and nobody understands. Not all Scripture is prophecy, so if a person cannot understand what prophecy is then the Scriptures are merely line upon line, words upon words—meaningless.

Quoting the Bible does not make you a prophet. Why is this basic concept so difficult for you? Anyone can quote the bible. Satan can quote the Bible. I can quote the Bible.

Genesis 35:22
While Israel was living in that region, Reuben went in and slept with his father's concubine Bilhah, and Israel heard of it.

Ezekiel 23:20
There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Luke 10:37
The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him." Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

There. I now meet Paul Bethke's criteria for being a prophet. Heed the words of the Dropbear epistle.

 

[JayUtah]

Quoting the Bible does not make you a prophet. Why is this basic concept so difficult for you?

I imagine for the same reason that many of the contestants on American Idol and similar shows don't realize why they aren't already, or can never be, recording industry megastars. Ian Benardo is the best example, although it's hard to tell whether he's just putting on an act. When one's self-image is so thoroughly insulated from fact, one can begin to write off others' criticism as somehow unfounded solely on the basis of its disagreement with the self-image.

 

[halleyscomet]

I imagine for the same reason that many of the contestants on American Idol and similar shows don't realize why they aren't already, or can never be, recording industry megastars. Ian Benardo is the best example, although it's hard to tell whether he's just putting on an act. When one's self-image is so thoroughly insulated from fact, one can begin to write off others' criticism as somehow unfounded solely on the basis of its disagreement with the self-image.

I imagine there are many clinical narcissists who try out for American Idol.

 

[JayUtah]

I imagine there are many clinical narcissists who try out for American Idol.

That's a fact, and if they're entertaining narcissists they'll get on the air. It's not hard to determine that the show places emphasis both on entertainment and talent. I've coached two contestants for American Idol. The most promising was a kid who I've directed in two choirs and had a Broadway credit under his belt in Les Miz. Even with that enviable resume he wasn't even allowed to audition. The screener I talked to flat-out said it's because this was the season after David Archuleta, and so most Utah boys weren't going to make the cut.

 

[dudalb]

No, Bethke. Repeatedly calling your critics stupid is childish. This thread has tested your knowledge of the Torah, and we can count the many times it has come up short. You're going to need better arguments than just making up a new way of being right that only you get to use.

So Let It Be Written, So Let It Be Done.....