Paul Bethke vs the 613 Mitzvot

But you can read them for yourself...

And I assure you I do. But the question is not how I read them or how halleyscomet reads them, but how you read them. The text in Exodus is not the question. You claim they were numbered as ten from the very get-go. That means you -- and you only -- are obliged to support that claim by filling out the form and showing, 1 through 10, where the bits of text from Exodus fit into those numbers.

It is trivial to do so, and it is necessary in order to support your claim. Since you assiduously refuse to do it, it is quite reasonable to suppose that the refusal means you realize doing so would hurt your case.
 
I predict that PB will NOT list the "Ten Commandments".

Why would I not list them--

I do not know why you refuse to list them!

That is what everyone is asking you!

WHY do you not list them?

I have indicated this on many occasions as those inscribed on the two stone tablets--

Then WHY do you refuse to list them?

indicating that adultery is a sin, as is lying, stealing and coveting ones neighbors wife, honouring ones father and mother.

"Honoring ones father and mother" is a sin?

That is how you wrote it above.

Mere mortals sometimes write sloppy, but it seems strange for someone that claims to be "infallible, perfect in knowledge".

You listed 5 "commands" (and screwed it up) but WHY do you REFUSE to list all ten?????


How is it that you do not recognise them?

:rolleyes:

How is it that you REFUSE to list all ten?
 
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But you can read them for yourself in Exodus 20 using the NIV—they are the ones inscribed on the Two stone tablets –there cannot be another version on different stone tablets.
Show me these claimed tablets, please, and the version inscribed thereon.

Feel free.


Deu_5:22 These are the commandments the LORD proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.

Now you know these things—the Ten Commands that make up the integral part of the faith, that were carried about by the Hebrews in their journeys.
Great, then you can show everyone those tablets, right.

Or could it be that you can only claim what was on those tablets without evidence?

Num 10:35 Whenever the ark set out, Moses said, "Rise up, O LORD! May your enemies be scattered; may your foes flee before you."
Num 10:36 Whenever it came to rest, he said, "Return, O LORD, to the countless thousands of Israel."
Um, your god may be bidden and constrained? Wow.

What was in the ark, only the two stone tablets---but you know that!
You don't know that the "ark" existed, nor what it's contents were, nor if the tablets existed.

You know nothing, Paul Bethke.
 
And I assure you I do. But the question is not how I read them or how halleyscomet reads them, but how you read them. The text in Exodus is not the question. You claim they were numbered as ten from the very get-go. That means you -- and you only -- are obliged to support that claim by filling out the form and showing, 1 through 10, where the bits of text from Exodus fit into those numbers.

It is trivial to do so, and it is necessary in order to support your claim. Since you assiduously refuse to do it, it is quite reasonable to suppose that the refusal means you realize doing so would hurt your case.


So now what is the problem?

Exodus 20:1 And God spoke all these words:
Exo 20:2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

1) Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before me.

2)Exo 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

3)Exodus 20:7 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

4) Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labour and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

5) Exodus 20:12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

6) Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder.

7) Exodus 20:14 "You shall not commit adultery.

8) Exodus 20:15 "You shall not steal.

9) Exodus 20:16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

10) Exodus 20:17 "You shall not covet your neighbour's house. You shall not covet your neighbour's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour."
 
So now what is the problem?

Exodus 20:1 And God spoke all these words:
Exo 20:2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

1) Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before me.

2)Exo 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

3)Exodus 20:7 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

4) Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labour and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

5) Exodus 20:12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

6) Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder.

7) Exodus 20:14 "You shall not commit adultery.

8) Exodus 20:15 "You shall not steal.

9) Exodus 20:16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

10) Exodus 20:17 "You shall not covet your neighbour's house. You shall not covet your neighbour's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour."

See? That wasn't so hard, now was it?

I find it interesting you reject the Deuteronomy word order for the coveting passages.

I'm not surprised you went with the Septuagint numbering, favored by Orthodox and Reformed Christians. It makes sense you'd go with the numbering preferred by Calvinists. Your professed theology and commitment to genetic guilt is saturated with implied predestination.

Still, your rejection of the Talmudic numbering is in conflict with your professed, yet demonstrably unlived, fetishization of the Mitzvot. It's not surprising, however, given some of the rather harsh things you had to say about people who followed the grooming and clothing laws in the Mitzvot.

Your rejection of Exodus 20:2 as the first commandment is, however, consistent with your rejection of Passover, despite your endless empty claims about the importance of the Mitzvot. Your overt rejection of a spiritual connection to the Exodus is highlighted by your choice for the Ten Commandments. It's strange how you claim one moment that there's been no change in the covenant, yet a post or two later make it clear you believe the covenant has been fundamentally altered.
 
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See? That wasn't so hard, now was it?

I find it interesting you reject the Deuteronomy word order for the coveting passages.

I'm not surprised you went with the Septuagint numbering, favored by Orthodox and Reformed Christians. It makes sense you'd go with the numbering preferred by Calvinists. Your professed theology and commitment to genetic guilt is saturated with implied predestination.

Still, your rejection of the Talmudic numbering is in conflict with your professed, yet demonstrably unlived, fetishization of the Mitzvot. It's not surprising, however, given some of the rather harsh things you had to say about people who followed the grooming and clothing laws in the Mitzvot.

Your rejection of Exodus 20:2 as the first commandment is, however, consistent with your rejection of Passover, despite your endless empty claims about the importance of the Mitzvot. Your overt rejection of a spiritual connection to the Exodus is highlighted by your choice for the Ten Commandments. It's strange how you claim one moment that there's been no change in the covenant, yet a post or two later make it clear you believe the covenant has been fundamentally altered.

Exodus 20:2 is an introduction, not a command.

A man asked Jesus what was necessary to eternal life and his answer was—
Mat 19:16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
Mat 19:17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
Mat 19:18 "Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, "'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony
Mat 19:19 honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'",

Mat 19:20 "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"

So the commands are what is required to get eternal life.
The Covenant is the same nothing has been altered.
The Ten Commands were those that were spoken by Yahweh, and they are referred to as the Covenant—the Book of the law contained additional commands, and the whole revelation in the Torah is also referred to as the Covenant Yahweh made with the Hebrew nation.

Deut_29:1 These are the terms of the Covenant the LORD commanded Moses to make with the Israelites in Moab, in addition to the Covenant he had made with them at Horeb.

Horeb as you know is where Yahweh spoke the Ten Commands.

Deuteronomy is a summary of what took place in the past—changing the sequence does not change what is inscribed on the stone tablets—I find it interesting that the covetable sequence put “coveting a man’s wife as priority”.

Another might put lying as a priority, or stealing—it is as Jesus stated--- Matthew 19:18 "Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, "'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'",

The grooming and clothing laws are external laws, what is required is an inward devotion, in the teachings of Jesus he emphasized Spirit and truth were required to worship God, even putting the Temple as not essential.

(Joh 4:21 Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.
John 4:22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
John 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
John 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."


So Jesus introduces a new way in which to worship the Creator, but at the same time does not invalidate the commands but shows a superior way, based on the old way.

So the new superior way shows what the Creator intended, using the old way to prepare people.

So now that the Temple is gone, where does Yahweh dwell--- Exo_25:8 "Then have them make a sanctuary for me, and I will dwell among them.

So now the believer has the Presence of Yahweh dwelling in them as they become the Temple.

Paul states--- Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
Eph 2:19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household,
Eph 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.
Eph 2:21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.
Eph 2:22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

So now there is a superior way that the Creator has inaugurated.
2Co_6:16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people."

But you did not know this, that is why you cannot understand prophecy.
 
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Exodus 20:2 is an introduction, not a command.

Not in all texts and traditions. Only in certain Christian interpretational traditions.

But you did not know this, that is why you cannot understand prophecy.

But you did not know the above, which is why you cannot claim to be infallible and perfectly conformant. By now you should realize that you can't just spew your personal interpretation, call it "prophecy," and declare it to be above criticism. There is no magical body of knowledge that only you possess and which somehow corrects all your errors.
 
Exodus 20:2 is an introduction, not a command.


Only in some churches. In many other churches and most temples it's the first commandment.

The grooming and clothing laws are external laws, what is required is an inward devotion, in the teachings of Jesus he emphasized Spirit and truth were required to worship God, even putting the Temple as not essential.


That's a lovely rationalization you've got there. The problem is you are ignoring Paul's command that Christians be distinct from their pagan neighbors. Go back and read first and second Corinthians. You're just as much a "Cafeteria Christian" as anyone else.

The simple fact of the matter is you are picking and choosing which laws to follow based upon convenience and then making up Biblically illiterate rationalizations to justify your decisions.

But you did not know this, that is why you cannot understand prophecy.


There you go again. Lying about what the word "prophecy" means try and make a point. You really should invest in a dictionary.
 
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Only in some churches. In many other churches and most temples it's the first commandment.




That's a lovely rationalization you've got there. The problem is you are ignoring Paul's command that Christians be distinct from their pagan neighbors. Go back and read first and second Corinthians. You're just as much a "Cafeteria Christian" as anyone else.

The simple fact of the matter is you are picking and choosing which laws to follow based upon convenience and then making up Biblically illiterate rationalizations to justify your decisions.




There you go again. Lying about what the word "prophecy" means try and make a point. You really should invest in a dictionary.

Well Comet if you do not understand what prophecy is then you understand nothing—what keeps the followers of Jesus distinct is they do not lie and do not commit adultery—they portray their faith by being honest and trust worthy and eat only what is stipulated.

As the temples of the Holy Spirit they need not have outward adornment to indicate their faith.

You SEE Comet that you are trying to be smart, but you wallow in ignorance.

Rev 14:4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

As I have stated there is a lesson to learn in every law, but not every law applies to each person.
This you can SEE for yourself—what Jesus stated is what is required to begin with---
Mat 19:18 "Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, "'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"

So, will you qualify for eternal life?
 
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Or, since you have a computer the Oxford English Dictionary is available for free online.
The term prophecy is not what modern day people understand—has it not been said that the ancient copies have a distinct language. Prophecy is not to foretell some events, prophecy has a direct relationship to what the Creator has decreed. Prophecy is a direction of the will of the Creator.
Rom 2:18 if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law;

Again---1Co 13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge,.

Here is an example--2Ki 9:35 But when they went out to bury her, they found nothing except her skull, her feet and her hands.
2Ki 9:36 They went back and told Jehu, who said, "This is the word of the LORD that he spoke through his servant Elijah the Tishbite: On the plot of ground at Jezreel dogs will devour Jezebel's flesh. Jezebel's body will be like refuse on the ground in the plot at Jezreel, so that no one will be able to say, 'This is Jezebel.'"

There is another one---Rev_11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."

So to understand this prophecy, one must understand how to implement it!

So prophecy in Scripture has a far different meaning to the Oxford dictionary and any other dictionary.
 
Well Comet if you do not understand what prophecy is...

That's not what he said. He and I and everyone else understands what prophecy is. His contention, and mine, is that you have redefined the word to be nothing more than a label for your personal interpretations. To you it's just a magic word that somehow means you don't need to justify anything or respond to your critics.
 
The term prophecy is not what modern day people understand—

No, you don't get to assume your critics don't know what words mean. As I said, you're trying to redefine it to cover your unattractive and illiterate preaching.

...has it not been said that the ancient copies have a distinct language.

...which your critics demonstrate they understand far better than you.

Prophecy is not to foretell some events...

Among other things, yes it is. And it is exactly that activity you have tried unsuccessfully to engage in, saying it was part of your calling. It makes sense that you now try to backpedal from and cover up those errors. But making up new definitions for words doesn't fool anyone.

...prophecy has a direct relationship to what the Creator has decreed. Prophecy is a direction of the will of the Creator.

And here you are in this thread making the standard excuses for not obeying that direction. You are not a prophet. There is no magical meaning in scripture that only you have the capacity to understand.
 
He'd have to pick a side other than his own unless he decided to make up his own listing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments#Traditions_for_numbering

It's fascinating to see how the different denominations order the commandments and which ones they deem worthy of including. For example, some denominations split the "coveting" into two commandments while others lump them into one.

The Lutherans drop "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image" while the Samaritan Pentateuch adds "Ye shall erect these stones which I command thee upon Mount Gerizim" as #10!
It is the Catholics who drop the images commandment (because they don't obey it). To make the number back up to ten they split the "coveting" commandment into two; one specifically bans coveting a neighbour's wife, while the other refers to the rest of the neighbour's possessions. These changes are both improvements on the original, because making images is good fun and not a moral delinquency; and it's good to see wives getting a commandment all to themselves.
 
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Well Comet if you do not understand what prophecy is then you understand nothing—what keeps the followers of Jesus distinct is they do not lie and do not commit adultery—they portray their faith by being honest and trust worthy and eat only what is stipulated.

As the temples of the Holy Spirit they need not have outward adornment to indicate their faith.

You SEE Comet that you are trying to be smart, but you wallow in ignorance.

Rev 14:4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

As I have stated there is a lesson to learn in every law, but not every law applies to each person.
This you can SEE for yourself—what Jesus stated is what is required to begin with---
Mat 19:18 "Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, "'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"

So, will you qualify for eternal life?

To paraphrase Proverbs 26:11, "As a dog returns to his vomit, so does Paul Bethke returns to lying about basic word meanings."

None of what you wrote actually addressed anything I wrote. You replied with another of your unrelated regurgitations of copypatsa Bible verses as if a wall of text will somehow disguise the fact you've failed to defend your position.

Quoting Bible verses is not an act of prophecy.

You REALLY need a dictionary.
 
To paraphrase Proverbs 26:11, "As a dog returns to his vomit, so does Paul Bethke returns to lying about basic word meanings."

None of what you wrote actually addressed anything I wrote. You replied with another of your unrelated regurgitations of copypatsa Bible verses as if a wall of text will somehow disguise the fact you've failed to defend your position.

Quoting Bible verses is not an act of prophecy.

You REALLY need a dictionary.
Well the words of Jesus certainly apply to you--Matt_7:6 "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs.

You SEE Comet it is true, that people who do not understand truth revert to insult. Naturally ir does not make sense to you because you do not understand prophecy as revealed in the Scriptures.

So you remain outside--Rev_22:15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

You SEE it is not a matter of ignoring the Torah it is a matter of understanding the Torah---Rom 2:18 if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the Torah;

So as I have stated on so many occasions—the Torah is my wisdom.
A wisdom and knowledge and understanding and insight that you will never have.

So wallow, wallow.
 
Well the words of Jesus certainly apply to you--Matt_7:6 "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs.

You SEE Comet it is true, that people who do not understand truth revert to insult. Naturally ir does not make sense to you because you do not understand prophecy as revealed in the Scriptures.

So you remain outside--Rev_22:15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

You SEE it is not a matter of ignoring the Torah it is a matter of understanding the Torah---Rom 2:18 if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the Torah;

So as I have stated on so many occasions—the Torah is my wisdom.
A wisdom and knowledge and understanding and insight that you will never have.

So wallow, wallow.

What's your point?

Is there a stage where you'll actually RESPOND to what I wrote or are you just going to circle your tail posting unrelated passages while lying about your comprehension of Scripture?

Your act is getting dull again Paul Bethke. You've fallen into another repetitive rut.
 

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