What Type of Theist or Atheist are You?

[Thor 2]

Just imagine if any other discussion, objective or subjective, was forced to operate under this level of hair splitting.

Ted: Bob has the mail come yet?
Bob: Well I don't know Ted. Do you mean do I know if the mail has come yet? Do I believe the mail has come yet? Do I believe the mail hasn't come yet?

or

Ted: Hey Bob do you think the Saints will make it to playoffs this year?
Bob: Woah... woah... we need to clarify this first. Are you asking if I think the Saints will make the playoffs or if I don't believe the Saints won't make the playoffs?

A good illustration Joe.

 

[ynot]

To be honest, a person who starts a poll that states "What Gender Are You?", lists two options, then gets into a slappy fight with anyone who claims to not fit either option, doesn't really come across as someone who wanted to learn anything from their audience, but wanted to prove a point about their audience.

If I did want to learn what type of theist or atheist posts here, I would probably begin by wording the title "Which category do you most agree with?", put in an option for "None of the above", and ask the respondents to describe their beliefs, or lack thereof, in their own words. Your behavior in telling people what option they should have picked suggests that you didn't need to learn, you already knew!

To be honest, a person who starts a poll that states "What Gender Are You?", lists two options, then gets into a slappy fight with anyone who claims to not fit either option, doesn't really come across as someone who wanted to learn anything from their audience, but wanted to prove a point about their audience.

I don't accept your implication/accusation that my poll is comparable to the gender poll you suggest. Before posting my poll I spent some time considering what options to offer and I believe the options offered reasonably cover all “what” types of theist and atheist options. If you disagree then provide a “what” theist or atheist type that can't be reasonably fitted to any of the options. Please don't provide a “why” type. Hint -Apathetic atheist isn't a “what” type it's a “why” type (because I'm apathetic). If an apathetic atheist has neither belief nor disbelief then they are an “Atheist type A – I neither believe nor disbelieve a god actually exists“.

If I did want to learn what type of theist or atheist posts here, I would probably begin by wording the title "Which category do you most agree with?"

Then you would have to provide category options from which they can choose. Why haven't you as I politely asked? Please do.

put in an option for "None of the above", and ask the respondents to describe their beliefs, or lack thereof, in their own words.

A poll asks you to choose from options. To add a feature that asks people to describe their beliefs, or lack there of, in their own words is providing an additional feature that's not part of the poll. You can ask them to do that without even having a poll.

Your behavior in telling people what option they should have picked suggests that you didn't need to learn, you already knew!

Please quote when and where I did what you accuse me of doing. You do understand that an option HAS to provide a list of options, and that someone HAS to compile that list?

Providing a list of options isn't telling people which option to pick or even that they have to pick an option. If and when you provide an option list alternative will that be “Your behavior in telling people what option they should have picked”. Like some other's I suspect you will avoid the issue by not providing “your” list of options. In other words, put up or shut up.

 

[ynot]

To put it more concisely, when I want to learn about others' beliefs, I prefer to give them the option to enlighten me with their own words, rather than force them to use mine.

Then you wouldn't start a poll. I did, get over it.
Starting a poll doesn't force anyone to do anything. Everyone knows where the door is.

 

[ynot]

How do polls work around here, then? If they aren't meant to learn or prove something, what is their intention?

Granted, in other parts of the forum, they can be meant to purely entertain...

I didn't respond to the poll, as I didn't see the point in doing so.

You did respond to the poll, just not by the way of voting. See I didn't force you to do anything.

 

[ynot]

In casual conversation that involves religion, all I care is that somebody knows I'm an atheist and/or I'm one of those people who doesn't believe in god.

If someone asks me to pick a category, though, I assume they care that I pick the correct one as much as I do, so I take more care. In this poll, I asked about the difference between think and believe, because they seemed the same to me.

I think/believe they are the same

Same as with "lack of belief" being the same as "lack of disbelief and belief".

 

[ynot]

...and NOT call clear definitions of subtle distinctions "nit-picking"...

(Good to see you again, Hokulele!)

Then you can't run a poll because a poll has predefined options whether you like them or not.

 

[ynot]

This, plus the...odd...lumping together of "lack of belief" with "disbelief"... (I am reminded of a certain poster who refused to characterize atheism as anything other than "choosing to become unfaithful", no matter how often they were shown alternatives.)

I guess that must be "unbelief". A form of "atheists deny their belief in a god" by "undoing" their belief.

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove breach of rule 0 and rule 12

I'm NOT lumping together of "lack of belief" with "disbelief". I'm "lumping together" "lack of belief" with LACK OF DISBELIEF".

If a person chooses to define their lack of relationship with 'god'-concepts as "disbelief", then that is, in fact, the correct word to use--for that person.

This is a poll that I started using my definitions. If anyone doesn't like my definitions they don't have to take part in this" poll.

 

[ynot]

A good illustration Joe.

But incomplete . . .

Ted: Bob has the mail come yet?
Bob: Well I don't know Ted. Do you mean do I know if the mail has come yet? Do I believe the mail has come yet? Do I believe the mail hasn't come yet?
Ted: I'm not running a poll Bob. A simple "yes", "no" or "I don't know" answer is all that's required. If I was running a poll however I would offer several choices from which you could pick the most appropriate one for yourself.

 

[ynot]

Think I've given this thread as much involvement as a thread starter should give their thread, and the debate just seems to be repeating itself. So I'm pretty much done with this thread/poll. Thanks to all those that voted. I don't have a “gotcha” and never intended to have.

 

[Hokulele]

But did you learn anything?

 

[ynot]

But did you learn anything?

Yep . . .

“Atheist type B – I believe a god doesn't actually exist” was by far the most popular atheist type choice (as I suspected it would be).

Over a quarter of atheists voted “Atheist type C – I know a god doesn't actually exist“ (pleasing for me).

Only a disappointingly few theists voted (had hoped for more).

Some people that didn't like the thread and didn't vote tried to discredit myself and the thread with willful misquotes and false accusations (as I expected on this forum).

You can't please all the people all the time, but you can please some of the people some of the time. It's always easy to displease some people without even trying or intending to. And you can always please yourself (but I already knew that).

 

[Hokulele]

Well, if the results were either what you expected, or what you already knew, I am not sure you really did learn anything, to be honest.

 

[Slowvehicle]

I don't accept your implication/accusation that my poll is comparable to the gender poll you suggest. Before posting my poll I spent some time considering what options to offer and I believe the options offered reasonably cover all “what” types of theist and atheist options. If you disagree then provide a “what” theist or atheist type that can't be reasonably fitted to any of the options. Please don't provide a “why” type. Hint -Apathetic atheist isn't a “what” type it's a “why” type (because I'm apathetic). If an apathetic atheist has neither belief nor disbelief then they are an “Atheist type A – I neither believe nor disbelieve a god actually exists“.

Interesting that you "believe" your options "reasonably cover" all the real types of atheists...despite real atheists, who can't be fitted into your options explaining themselves.

It certainly makes it seem more and more as if you have an agenda that did not unfold as you hoped.

Then you would have to provide category options from which they can choose. Why haven't you as I politely asked? Please do.

Why should you expect someone else to repair your poll, given the manner in which you have reacted to those who have suggested changes?

I did, in fact, offer an alternative approach--instead of setting up neat little pigeonholes that do no more than confirm your assumptions, and mocking those who resist your awkward taxonomy, why not just ask people to explain themselves?

A poll asks you to choose from options.

Options selected to fit the pollster's agenda; not necessarily options that reflect reality--especially the reality of a spectrum, or a matrix.

To add a feature that asks people to describe their beliefs, or lack there of, in their own words is providing an additional feature that's not part of the poll. You can ask them to do that without even having a poll.

Why is it that you seem to think it is more important to make people fit into your arbitrary categories, than to find out what they really think?

W\hat is the point of a poll where your pre-selected answers are the only "right" answers?

Please quote when and where I did what you accuse me of doing. You do understand that an option HAS to provide a list of options, and that someone HAS to compile that list?

Why does a poll HAVE to provide a list of arbitrary options? Again, what are you after?

Providing a list of options isn't telling people which option to pick or even that they have to pick an option. If and when you provide an option list alternative will that be “Your behavior in telling people what option they should have picked”. Like some other's I suspect you will avoid the issue by not providing “your” list of options. In other words, put up or shut up.

Again, you completely ignore (and appear to reject out of hand) the constructivist approach of allowing respondents to describe themselves, or to provide alternatives to your scheme.

Decide what you are really after, then craft your exploration to discover that--instead of complaining when people reasonably declined to dance to your piping and mourn at your dirge.

"Put up or shut up", indeed.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Then you wouldn't start a poll. I did, get over it.
Starting a poll doesn't force anyone to do anything. Everyone knows where the door is.

Yes, but you appear to consider yourself a proper warden.

You have written a poll. Some have commented on the constraints of its strait options. Why has that gotten your knickers twisted?

 

[Darat]

ynot - what would:

"I don't believe in any god or gods" equate to?

 

[Slowvehicle]

I think/believe they are the same

Same as with "lack of belief" being the same as "lack of disbelief and belief".

On the other hand, I am convinced that "lack of belief" is not the same as "disbelief"; and will resist your attempts to put words in my mouth.

Your contention about motivations aside, "unbelief" expresses "not believing"; "disbelief" expresses "believing not". Nuance is important.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Then you can't run a poll because a poll has predefined options whether you like them or not.

Again, you exhibit a certain tone-deafness, or aversion to nuance.

The issue is NOT that I "can't" run a poll; the issue is that, were I looking to learn about peoples' actual opinions and positions, I would not do so by trying to cram them into inappositive boxes.

As has been pointed out to you, "none of the above" is a valid option.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I never said that the distinctions weren't valid on a purely semantic/argumentative level, only that they are practically never invoked in any other discussion.

I just see an ulterior motive in the continued assumption that "Does God exist" is a question that has to be answered under completely different rules then "Is that car blue."

 

[Slowvehicle]

I guess that must be "unbelief". A form of "atheists deny their belief in a god" by "undoing" their belief.

"You are not a skillful guesser, Terry."

"Unbelief" is NOT "denying belief".

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove moderated content.....

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited by Agatha: 

....and response to same

I'm NOT lumping together of "lack of belief" with "disbelief". I'm "lumping together" "lack of belief" with LACK OF DISBELIEF".

...and that lumping obscures reality.

But please, do feel free to carry on.

This is a poll that I started using my definitions. If anyone doesn't like my definitions they don't have to take part in this" poll.

Perhaps, if this is your desire, you have mistaken the nature of the forum.

 

[Hokulele]

I never said that the distinctions weren't valid on a purely semantic/argumentative level, only that they are practically never invoked in any other discussion.

I just see an ulterior motive in the continued assumption that "Does God exist" is a question that has to be answered under completely different rules then "Is that car blue."

It's really no different than any other metaphysical discussion, such as "Does the self exist?"