Slowvehicle
Membership Drive , Co-Ordinator,, Russell's Antin
If you got what you expected, why do you pretend to be disappointed? Was it not you who said there was a door?
If you got what you expected, why do you pretend to be disappointed? Was it not you who said there was a door?
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive , Co-Ordinator,, Russell's Antin
My motive is not ulterior, but patent. I have yet to have someone try to tell me whom I may marry based upon their concept of the color of my car...
...and I have, in fact, had interesting, and spirited, discussions about the nature of "blue" (Ball's Bright Earth is a good starting point); dealing with (for instance) the "wine-dark sea" and Death's "pale horse".
Yes I'm not exactly a fan of metaphysical nonsense in other topics as well and don't see those distinctions as any more necessary than ones when talking about God.
And I respect that (no snark) but argumentatives don't change based on the consequences of arguments.
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Slowvehicle
Membership Drive , Co-Ordinator,, Russell's Antin
I would be interested in pursuing this, to find out what you mean--but I fear it would be OT in this thread.
That definition of what you “don't” doesn't adequately define what you “do”. The only poll option that can be immediately eliminated is “Theist type A – I believe a god actually exists”. All other options could be possible.
At the time of me writing this . . .
2 theists voted that they don't believe in a god because they know there's a god.
10 atheists voted that they don't believe in a god because they neither believe nor disbelieve in a god.
46 atheists voted that they don't believe in a god because they believe against a god.
28 atheists voted that they don't believe in a god because they know there is no god.
I don't get to choose what poll option your "I don't believe in any god or gods" equates to, you do by voting for one option thereby negating the others.
I you had said something like "I have no belief, disbelief or knowledge regarding gods" it would be clear which option it applied to.
To be fair (and honest) “Atheist type A” should've also said something like "I have no belief, disbelief or knowledge regarding gods" as well. “Atheist type A – I neither believe nor disbelieve a god actually exists” is also inadequate as it doesn't cover knowledge. (sorry about that). However I think those that voted for this option correctly joined the dots anyway.
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David Mo
Philosopher
Not so evident:
"Ignosticism:
This is the view that a coherent definition of "God" must be put forward before the question of the existence or non-existence of God can even be meaningfully discussed. If the chosen definition is not coherent, the ignostic holds the Non-Cognitivist view that the existence of God is meaningless or empirically untestable. A. J. Ayer, Theodore Drange and other philosophers see both atheism and agnosticism as incompatible with ignosticism on the grounds that atheism and agnosticism accept "God exists" as a meaningful proposition which can be argued for or against."
I think you are making a mistake that a lot of theists do and I assume I have to have a belief about their god or gods. I don't have such a belief all I can say is that I don't believe in their god or gods.
Atheism is not a belief in of itself, it is a lack of a belief, some people who are atheists may also have other beliefs for example "no god could exist". But the atheism part is simply I don't believe in any god or gods.
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive , Co-Ordinator,, Russell's Antin
Must say I'm disappointed with that reply as it seems to represent more a “preciousness” regarding your atheism than it does anything else.
My reply related to this post of yours. . .
You didn't say or indicate that the word ”I” refered to you personally and I didn't assume it did. My use of “you” in my reply was used and meant in the “Royal” sense, as I assumed your use of the word “I” was.
I explained that "I don't believe in any god or gods" could equate to all poll options but one. I gave one example how it could fit one of the theist options and three examples of how it could fit all atheist options. I'm baffled how you interpreted that as being that I'm in any way assuming you have to have a belief about a god or gods.
Atheism is lack of belief in, but not necessarily lack of belief about, god(s).
Some atheists lack belief in god(s) and lack belief about god(s).
Some atheists lack belief in god(s) because they believe god(s) don't exist (highest vote option in this poll).
Some atheists lack belief in god(s) because they believe they have knowledge that god(s) don't exist. (I'm such an atheist).
Some theists lack belief in god(s) because they believe they have knowledge god(s) do exist.
All this has nothing to do with you personally and is neither comment nor criticism regarding your atheism.
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Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
Personally, I was one of the people who voted that I believe that a god doesn't exist. If I were to elaborate on it, I have no valid and direct evidence for the existence or lack thereof of any supernatural beings, much less the subset of those that would qualify to be gods. However, what I do have is knowledge of a lot of failed attempts over a long, long period of time to make claims that they exist and multiple alternative explanations for such claims. Combined, that has led me to a similarly weak belief that there aren't any, hence my answer. As a general rule, I will not argue that there are no gods, though, based on that, just that I have yet to see a good reason to accept that any exist. In acknowledgement of ignosticism, which I have often cited, myself, I'm using just about the broadest reasonable usage of "god," which includes most supernatural beings with the power to affect the physical universe in any significant way. Ghosts, for example, generally wouldn't qualify. Either way, that belief is an additional thing on top of my base lack of belief.
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Ignostic, apathetic, agnostic, gnostic are all reasons why people are certain types of atheists, Not what type of atheist they are.
There are two types of theist (IMO) . . .
One that believes a god or gods actually exist.
One that has a belief (some may say knowledge) they know a god or gods actually exist.
There are three types of atheist (IMO) . . .
One that has no belief (lack of belief for or against) or knowledge (lack of knowledge for or against) regarding a god or gods actual existence.
One that has a belief that god or gods don't actually exist.
One that has a belief (some may say knowledge) that they know a god or gods don't actually exist.
Please feel free to offer any other types of theist and/or atheist if you believe they exist (IYO). Please don't offer examples of “why” as being examples of “types”.
There are two types of theist (IMO) . . .
One that believes a god or gods actually exist.
One that has a belief (some may say knowledge) they know a god or gods actually exist.
There are three types of atheist (IMO) . . .
One that has no belief (lack of belief for or against) or knowledge (lack of knowledge for or against) regarding a god or gods actual existence.
One that has a belief that god or gods don't actually exist.
One that has a belief (some may say knowledge) that they know a god or gods don't actually exist.
Please feel free to offer any other types of theist and/or atheist if you believe they exist (IYO). Please don't offer examples of “why” as being examples of “types”.
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Hokulele
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
Based on those categories, are babies atheists?
Yes. So are the mentally impaired that don't have the ability to believe or know anything, and those that have never heard of god(s).
Can you guess which type of atheist a baby is?
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Exactly. You have lack of belief for gods existing and you have a belief against gods existing.
Hokulele
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
How about an Old English Sheepdog? A tree? A very small rock?
The point being, in the case of beliefs, the why is often as important as the what.
Thor 2
Philosopher
Pretty obviously a type A - but let's watch the nit pickers tear into this one.
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
Well, the first question to be asked there, really, is "Is the Old English Sheepdog a "person?" What about the tree? What about the very small rock? If they're not a person, then they wouldn't count as an atheist in the first place anyways. Either way, that babies are atheists because they lack a positive belief that any gods exist is an obvious conclusion, unless one actually wants to try to seriously argue that they are born with a belief in the existence of gods. That subset of atheists is, of course, generally considered to be different than the subset that have formed a belief on the matter.
Thor 2
Philosopher
I wonder if the baby Jesus was born an atheist?
Hokulele
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
That is actually the point. If that subset is different, why is it acceptable to lump it in as the OP has done? In other words, the why is as important as the what for a poll of this nature, or else the results could be seen as simply trying to affirm a previously held opinion. It is no different than 9/11 conspiracy theorists devising polls where the options are set such that their private position shows more support than it actually merits.
Thought you would have known that theism and atheism apply uniquely to humans.
The "what" is more important than the "why" in the poll because the poll is only asking about the "what". The "why" determines the "what", so don't offer "whys" as being "whats".
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