Merged To disclose, or not

Alien visitation type threads usually find a better home in General Skepticism & the Paranormal than in C&CT, so I've moved the thread here.
Posted By: Agatha

I don't think this is an alien visitation thread, although I'm not familiar enough with the OP author to say for sure. I read it more as a mental exercise, perhaps aimed at determining the potential motivations for a fictional character - what reasons for disclosure, what reasons for secrecy, make the most sense?


That said... here's my two cents.

Depends.

If I am under the impression that these aliens represent a real threat, then I disclose. Given their level of technology it's probably pointless, but I'd rather at least have the opportunity to fight and lose, than to never have the opportunity at all.

If, on the other hand, I am under the impression that they do not represent a threat, then I keep it quiet. Like marplots said, most secrets have a reason for being secret. Clearly they have an advanced technology, and if they wished to be identifiable, they would be. They are masking their presence for some reason. We're a pretty panicky and aggressive species overall, so I don't know that I'd blame them - we're not all that good at dealing with new and strange.
 
You were asking for feedback on your hypothetical situation and yet turn up your proverbial nose at the suggestions?


Yeah, that's where my interest in the thought exercise took an instantaneous right angle turn at 20K mph.

The boring real-world answer the boring responsible grownups actually in command would apply is: wait for further information and clarification (which will clearly be forthcoming if contact or communication are taking place) before deciding what to disclose and to whom. Unless or until something not mentioned about the immediate situation is forcing your hand, one way or the other.
 
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Jodie said


You were asking for feedback on your hypothetical situation and yet turn up your proverbial nose at the suggestions? Let me theoretically snatch your glasses off your face and break them across my knee. Now analyze that!


Sorry. I should have said Thanks but I sought suggestions for refining the one question in the OP. Keeping it simple, facilitating answers asap, was a priority more than adding details.

A B C D & E were great tho!

C & E especially.
 
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You were asking for feedback on your hypothetical situation and yet turn up your proverbial nose at the suggestions? Let me theoretically snatch your glasses off your face and break them across my knee. Now analyze that! :p

I didn't get that. I got that he was turning his nose up at the people who wouldn't accept the hypothetical as a hypothetical, and who assume he has some hidden agenda, and are mocking that hidden agenda. I could be wrong, I guess.
 
Yeah, that's where my interest in the thought exercise took an instantaneous right angle turn at 20K mph.

The boring real-world answer the boring responsible grownups actually in command would apply is: wait for further information and clarification (which will clearly be forthcoming if contact or communication are taking place) before deciding what to disclose and to whom. Unless or until something not mentioned about the immediate situation is forcing your hand, one way or the other.


Well for those grownups, there is no contact in the picture yet. Anyway still just wait, observing, and see what happens?

I guess waiting ie not prepping wouldnt matter so much. Not much point in preparing to fight such technology. Emilys Cat indicated its pointless, wanted to be able to fight anyway...


But what of impacts political, technology, cultural, science, ...with disclosing?

Pros & Cons?

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I didn't get that. I got that he was turning his nose up at the people who wouldn't accept the hypothetical as a hypothetical, and who assume he has some hidden agenda, and are mocking that hidden agenda. I could be wrong, I guess.


It seemed simple enough a question.

I saw little point in engaging resistance in this. However I did spend some time with some. I mostly wanted to keep it focused on the simple question/answer purpose.

Developing a more productive approach to engaging in speculative conversation, and seeing it happen were motives.
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Alien visitation type threads usually find a better home in General Skepticism & the Paranormal than in C&CT, so I've moved the thread here.
Posted By: Agatha
It's definitely a CT thread. It's part of Bubba's ongoing body of work to insinuate acceptance of a woo conspiracy in support of a parade of arbitrary woo claims that otherwise fail for lack of support.
 
Very good point.
Don't the aliens have any say in this? ...

It strikes me that one of the most bizarre blind spots in the brains of most CT is that the aliens have no policy about secrecy. If the aliens want to reveal themselves, they'd just touchdown in Times Square. There's not a damn thing the government could do about it. Maybe that was Plan 10.

How to reveal it? Presidential press conference. Why handle this differently than any other bit of shocking news?
 
Your best sources are David Wilcock and the two most important Secret Space Programme whistleblowers are Corey Goode and William Tompkinson . The latter debriefed over 1000 of the hand picked SS Nazi scientists who were taken into the US at the end of WW2 . I have enjoyed following the cutting edge factions involved in this narrative for many years and suspect that little will be resolved until the current battles that are pivotal to the Antarctic region are resolved . And if you don't know what I am talking about , I suggest you get down to some serious research and avoid the need to ask questions which are in large part being answered right now . But if you think there is anybody else on this chat site who has even an inkling of this subject matter , I can assure you the answer is a a 100% No .

Edited by jsfisher: 
<snip> Edited for compliance with Rule 12 of the Membership Agreement.


For the avoidance of doubt,

- there is no Secret Space Program (at least, not one that has ever contacted aliens or sent secret missions the Moon or Mars)

- the Nazis didn't have flying saucers or a secret base on the Moon

- Hubble hasn't "drifted off into space".
Edited by jsfisher: 
<snip> Edited for compliance with Rule 12 of the Membership Agreement.
Referencing froot-loops like Corey Goode is not evidence to support your case.

@Bubba

I would disclose for a number of reasons, but primarily because....

1. If they are a threat, the more people who know about them, the better chance we have of finding a way to defend ourselves

2. If they are not a threat, the more people who know about them, the better chance we have of finding a way to replicate their technology.
 
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Well for those grownups, there is no contact in the picture yet. Anyway still just wait, observing, and see what happens?


What? There's contact/communication to answer the question "how are they so sure it's aliens?" but when the question is "what threats or opportunities do the aliens claim to present?" the contact/communication disappears again? These ETs really do travel quickly, at twice the speed of argument, which is far too fast for logic to keep up.

If I were the secret dictator of some powerful nation, and I were faced with the question of what to do with the reports of the type you listed, sightings of craft appearing and disappearing and moving at (believed-to-be-) impossible speeds and accelerations, here's what I would do:

- I'd want investigations of the possibility of these events being caused by technology we don't have, whether the reason we don't have it is because it's alien or because some purely earthly foreign power has made an unexpected breakthrough. So besides engaging espionage assets to find out as much as possible about what technology our allies and enemies have or are working on (which, of course, I'd be doing anyhow), I'd also be asking scientists and engineers, is there anything we can learn from these reports? Can this information help us in any current or possible development efforts of our own? To do this, I'd have to disclose the details of the encounters to those experts.

- While the scientists and engineers are in the room, I'd also tell them, "If these occurrences are due to malfunctions or shortcomings in our instruments and our observation methods, let's find out the causes of the false observations, and learn how to improve our instruments and observation methods to improve their reliability." And by the way, if the anomalous readings were due to spoofing or jamming or other interference with those instruments by someone else, especially one of the aforementioned purely earthly foreign powers, let's figure that out as well and learn how to prevent it.

- If the evidence of the use of alien technology turned out to be strong, I'd very much want to investigate and either confirm or rule out whether the aliens were assisting some other nation.

That all falls under "waiting and observing," but if anything of use turns up, it also counts as "preparing" (and if nothing turns up, there's either nothing to prepare for, or no knowledge of what to prepare for).

All of those measures involve disclosing of some information to some people, but none of them requires, or benefits from, "disclosing" wild-ass guesses to the general public. (There might be some espionage scenarios where a false or deceptive public disclosure—note that "true" can be deceptive too—might have some value in seeing how some opponent responds. But that's an unusual and mostly self-limiting case.)

Keep in mind, also, that not disclosing something doesn't mean saying nothing; it means saying all the same things you'd be saying if the something in question weren't the case. Which means that what authorities do and don't say about a secret topic is a very poor indicator of what's true about that secret topic. That, of course, is by design.

I guess waiting ie not prepping wouldnt matter so much. Not much point in preparing to fight such technology. Emilys Cat indicated its pointless, wanted to be able to fight anyway…


I agree that preparing for interstellar warfare against aliens that are already visiting our planet in spacecraft would be pretty pointless. One problem is that interstellar spacecraft that can travel between nearby stars in less than many centuries are also, by nature, unstoppable world-ending weapons. You don't need the Death Star or the Doomsday Machine to wipe out a planet. Any space ship (even Millennium Falcon size, let alone Enterprise or Star Destroyer size) moving at a significant fraction of the speed of light will do the trick, if it's set on autopilot to crash into your planet.

So, you concentrate on developing your own technology, which you already want to do anyhow when you're in arms races with other nations. You disclose your various "sightings" and "encounters" and any physical evidence (crash wreckage and such) as needed, but only to the extent that doing so helps in that effort. If the encounters prove to not be helpful (i.e. they start looking more like instrument reading anomalies and optical illusions and crashes of other intelligence branches' secret projects instead of aliens) then you don't chase those leads pointlessly once you figure that out. You leak some stories publicly, some true and some false, to keep your enemies uncertain, just as you'd do if there actually were some aliens around and you knew about them.

What eventually makes the situation clear is not what you say or don't say (which, to emphasize the point, if you're keeping a secret should ideally be the same as if you weren't keeping that secret because it's not true). It's the lack, over periods of decades, of any discontinuities in world history or world technological progress. Actual involvement of aliens or their technology would cause such discontinuities. If they were around, it would be no harder to figure out than whether or not any Europeans did or didn't reach the New World around the fifteenth century AD. (Spoiler: they did.)
 
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It's definitely a CT thread. It's part of Bubba's ongoing body of work to insinuate acceptance of a woo conspiracy in support of a parade of arbitrary woo claims that otherwise fail for lack of support.


Chocolate and your favorite ice cream might help with that. Or massage. All would be best.

Anyway.... its good to see some posters engaging and speculating re this topic.
 
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It strikes me that one of the most bizarre blind spots in the brains of most CT is that the aliens have no policy about secrecy.


I haven't seen that but will take your word for it. Seems most aliens would be aware/controlling their PR. Image being important and all.


If the aliens want to reveal themselves, they'd just touchdown in Times Square.


Agree. In the exercise, ET is not communicating other than being seen, and maybe pacing jets as allowed earlier.


How to reveal it? Presidential press conference. Why handle this differently than any other bit of shocking news?


There ya go. Easy as pie. Disclosure via normal channels avoids exacerbating 'strange factor'. Assures the audience all will be just fine.
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Edited by jsfisher: 
<snip> Moderated content redacted.

For the avoidance of doubt,

- there is no Secret Space Program (at least, not one that has ever contacted aliens or sent secret missions the Moon or Mars)

- the Nazis didn't have flying saucers or a secret base on the Moon

- Hubble hasn't "drifted off into space".

Edited by jsfisher: 
<snip> Moderated content redacted.
Referencing froot-loops like Corey Goode is not evidence to support your case.

@Bubba

I would disclose for a number of reasons, but primarily because....

1. If they are a threat, the more people who know about them, the better chance we have of finding a way to defend ourselves

2. If they are not a threat, the more people who know about them, the better chance we have of finding a way to replicate their technology.


Thanks for weighing in.
My sentiments too.

I'm recommending you for a raise and a promotion.
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Practical, and kinda sad whereas the old "Aliens would be benevolent" sounds nice, but....wise to prepare for bad ET just in case.
 
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What? There's contact/communication to answer the question "how are they so sure it's aliens?")

Well, its not unreasonable to think that if "We" ("We" being the massive organisation that knows about these things) have watched these vehicles/ships/devices "fly straight up and into outer space at 20K+ mph", that we have also been able to track them out beyond the orbit of Neptune (we can already do that now with the Pioneers and the Voyagers) and would not be unreasonable to conclude "perhaps aliens" in the absence of any likelihood that humans were responsible.

In any case, the phenomena we have clearly observed (as specified by Bubba) is a long way beyond any current understanding of the Laws of physics, so , does it really matter whether its aliens from beyond or from within.
 
What? There's contact/communication to answer the question "how are they so sure it's aliens?" but when the question is "what threats or opportunities do the aliens claim to present?" the contact/communication disappears again? These ETs really do travel quickly, at twice the speed of argument, which is far too fast for logic to keep up.


IIRC someone argued that there must have been contact if the decider had confirmed it was ET. Then to simplify, IIRC, I figured to just say (you) the supreme decider somehow knows without contact that it is ET visiting.

So, IIRC I struck the "contact was not made.." clause to simplify and emphasized... "You have determined that earth is being visited by intelligent beings..."



Hence , "what threats or opportunities do the aliens claim to present?" was moot. unless I'm wrong on that somehow.


If I were the secret dictator of some powerful nation, and I were faced with the question of what to do with the reports of the type you listed, sightings of craft appearing and disappearing and moving at (believed-to-be-) impossible speeds and accelerations, here's what I would do:

- I'd want investigations of the possibility of these events being caused by technology we don't have, whether the reason we don't have it is because it's alien or because some purely earthly foreign power has made an unexpected breakthrough. So besides engaging espionage assets to find out as much as possible about what technology our allies and enemies have or are working on (which, of course, I'd be doing anyhow), I'd also be asking scientists and engineers, is there anything we can learn from these reports? Can this information help us in any current or possible development efforts of our own? To do this, I'd have to disclose the details of the encounters to those experts.

- While the scientists and engineers are in the room, I'd also tell them, "If these occurrences are due to malfunctions or shortcomings in our instruments and our observation methods, let's find out the causes of the false observations, and learn how to improve our instruments and observation methods to improve their reliability." And by the way, if the anomalous readings were due to spoofing or jamming or other interference with those instruments by someone else, especially one of the aforementioned purely earthly foreign powers, let's figure that out as well and learn how to prevent it.

- If the evidence of the use of alien technology turned out to be strong, I'd very much want to investigate and either confirm or rule out whether the aliens were assisting some other nation.

That all falls under "waiting and observing," but if anything of use turns up, it also counts as "preparing" (and if nothing turns up, there's either nothing to prepare for, or no knowledge of what to prepare for).

All of those measures involve disclosing of some information to some people, but none of them requires, or benefits from, "disclosing" wild-ass guesses to the general public. (There might be some espionage scenarios where a false or deceptive public disclosure—note that "true" can be deceptive too—might have some value in seeing how some opponent responds. But that's an unusual and mostly self-limiting case.)


Great, all well & good for pre-deciding.



Keep in mind, also, that not disclosing something doesn't mean saying nothing; it means saying all the same things you'd be saying if the something in question weren't the case. Which means that what authorities do and don't say about a secret topic is a very poor indicator of what's true about that secret topic. That, of course, is by design.


I agree that preparing for interstellar warfare against aliens that are already visiting our planet in spacecraft would be pretty pointless. One problem is that interstellar spacecraft that can travel between nearby stars in less than many centuries are also, by nature, unstoppable world-ending weapons. You don't need the Death Star or the Doomsday Machine to wipe out a planet. Any space ship (even Millennium Falcon size, let alone Enterprise or Star Destroyer size) moving at a significant fraction of the speed of light will do the trick, if it's set on autopilot to crash into your planet.

So, you concentrate on developing your own technology, which you already want to do anyhow when you're in arms races with other nations. You disclose your various "sightings" and "encounters" and any physical evidence (crash wreckage and such) as needed, but only to the extent that doing so helps in that effort. If the encounters prove to not be helpful (i.e. they start looking more like instrument reading anomalies and optical illusions and crashes of other intelligence branches' secret projects instead of aliens) then you don't chase those leads pointlessly once you figure that out. You leak some stories publicly, some true and some false, to keep your enemies uncertain, just as you'd do if there actually were some aliens around and you knew about them.

What eventually makes the situation clear is not what you say or don't say (which, to emphasize the point, if you're keeping a secret should ideally be the same as if you weren't keeping that secret because it's not true). It's the lack, over periods of decades, of any discontinuities in world history or world technological progress. Actual involvement of aliens or their technology would cause such discontinuities. If they were around, it would be no harder to figure out than whether or not any Europeans did or didn't reach the New World around the fifteenth century AD. (Spoiler: they did.)



OK then.

Thanks
 
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I don't think this is an alien visitation thread, although I'm not familiar enough with the OP author to say for sure. I read it more as a mental exercise, perhaps aimed at determining the potential motivations for a fictional character - what reasons for disclosure, what reasons for secrecy, make the most sense?


That said... here's my two cents.

Depends.

If I am under the impression that these aliens represent a real threat, then I disclose. Given their level of technology it's probably pointless, but I'd rather at least have the opportunity to fight and lose, than to never have the opportunity at all.

If, on the other hand, I am under the impression that they do not represent a threat, then I keep it quiet. Like marplots said, most secrets have a reason for being secret. Clearly they have an advanced technology, and if they wished to be identifiable, they would be. They are masking their presence for some reason. We're a pretty panicky and aggressive species overall, so I don't know that I'd blame them - we're not all that good at dealing with new and strange.


Thanks for answering the question.



I don't think this is an alien visitation thread,


Mostly not, I think I'd agree.

More like just wanting to see serious type answers which some have posted. **

....thanks for those!
.


**What kinda thread would that make it?
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Well, its not unreasonable to think that if "We" ("We" being the massive organisation that knows about these things) have watched these vehicles/ships/devices "fly straight up and into outer space at 20K+ mph", that we have also been able to track them out beyond the orbit of Neptune (we can already do that now with the Pioneers and the Voyagers) and would not be unreasonable to conclude "perhaps aliens" in the absence of any likelihood that humans were responsible.

In any case, the phenomena we have clearly observed (as specified by Bubba) is a long way beyond any current understanding of the Laws of physics, so , does it really matter whether its aliens from beyond or from within.


Well no, I think it doesn't matter so much, at first anyway, if we dont know exactly where 'they' are from.

Just acknowledging 'they' or 'them' is a a good start IMO.
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I didn't get that. I got that he was turning his nose up at the people who wouldn't accept the hypothetical as a hypothetical, and who assume he has some hidden agenda, and are mocking that hidden agenda. I could be wrong, I guess.

I thought he was asking for a better hypothetical scenario. I thought entertainment was the agenda.
 
Edited by jsfisher: 
<snip> Moderated content redacted.

For the avoidance of doubt,

- there is no Secret Space Program (at least, not one that has ever contacted aliens or sent secret missions the Moon or Mars)

- the Nazis didn't have flying saucers or a secret base on the Moon

- Hubble hasn't "drifted off into space".
Edited by jsfisher: 
<snip> Moderated content redacted.
Referencing froot-loops like Corey Goode is not evidence to support your case.

Well , it seems that you want us all to be reassured , courtesy of your all knowing nature , just by you telling us that and nothing else -- shades of Bush Baby And Tony Bliar .If and when you have read Wilcock , for example , I might consider swapping points with you . But in the present light of your all knowing conviction , who am I to even try and dent your self admiration ?

Edited by jsfisher: 
Edited to fix broken quote tags. Let's try to be a bit more careful, please.
 
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How would you best handle this disclosure challenge in a good way, to minimize the bad and maximize the good?

What issues around disclosure do you see?
Advantages?
Disadvantages?
Problems?
Surprises?

Note:
This is still fantasy or sci-fi ie a hypothetical exercise. (in case anyone missed that)

One condition (so far) being that the so called free energy technology thingamajig must be addressed.
It comes with your disclosure decision. It will now be part of the picture. It does everything our
current energy tech does. Details of how it works are not so important for now here.


There is still time BTW to back away from disclosing...Your call.
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Of course such an exercise is very real and at the heart of present times . However , the MSM Conspiracy Old Timers are partially appeased when you play games with them and pretend it is just a hypothetical discussion . You cannot disclose UFOs officially without Free Energy and anti gravitics becoming resultant topics a few seconds later ( Space bending and Time Travel also -- but keep it simple ) . Once it then becomes incontrovertible that these sciences have been applied here for upward of 80 years , all hell breaks loose .The social consequences and changed social order can be worked out very quickly -- about sixty seconds should suffice even for the snails .I cannot imagine the present power elite will ever willingly let Money , Resources and Medicines pass from their control without the ultimate sacrifice . There is therefore no real likelihood of quick voluntary disclosure and certainly not before single government has been established with every remaining human chipped and exactly located .
 

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