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General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

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You are right. Viktor Suvorov was a Historian, NOT A General.

Suvorov has been refuted and dismissed at length. Some reviews have been rather brutalizing. I will review some basic facts for you.

1. Stalin, just weeks before the invasion, ordered his troops to assume defensive positions and to not antagonize the Germans.

2. Stalin himself had embarked upon another round of purging in May of 1941.

3. The red army was lacking manpower and aircraft, and in no shape to conduct any kind of offensive. They had yet to receive their famed Sturmovik assault aircraft, which did not begin to arrive en mass until 1942.

4. Stalin made clear as a matter of doctrine that the Soviets had to have three to one superiority on every part of the front for any attack to be conducted. The Soviets did not have even close to that superiority and would not have had it until 1942.
 
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And yet here you are, posting your racist bigotry without anyone deleting it.
Here we go with the racist bigoted crap now. You sure you're not violating the rules of his forum.. LOL

Remember that you're personally attacking me saying I am a "racist bigot". I consider that accusation slander and defamatory and I think you should apologize for it. if you know what I did for a living you would be totally embarrassed.

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Gerstein's testimony contains some exaggerations or inaccuracies. Even the historians admit this. However the fact that he has attended a gassing is corroborated by another testimony of Pfannenstiel who was there the same day. Even if Pfannestiel disagrees on some of the figures provided by Gerstein, he does not refute that a gassing has taken place.

Here is the comment provided by the historian Christopher Browning during the court case Irving v. Lipstadt:
His testimony is nonsense. Real honest court cases by reputable courts and honorable people would throw this court case out on its ear if they heard all these words using the word exaggerated, inaccurate blah blah blah. Gringuaz would be in heaven dealing with Her steins lies. He may even would have used this quote:
“most of the memoirs and reports of Holocaust survivors are full of preposterous verbosity, graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic *effects, overestimated self-inflation, dilettante philosophizing, would-be lyricism, unchecked rumors, bias, partisan attacks…”

Wow, got context now.....

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No, simply because "recovered memory" cannot be corroborated by material and/or archeological evidences and written documents...

As simple as that...
Which is it, when the Holocaust people give their stories they give their stories from their recovered memories Elizabeth Loftus shows that some of these stories are not true.

. A holohoax victim said she was within 10 feet of the crematorium on the Phil Donahue show and said smelled like chicken. So is this story true or false? Well obviously it's false it's something she thinks happened but the story is not true.
The "cooperating material" the "archeological evidence" and the "written documents" prove that she is totally wrong.

https://youtu.be/VUjRIcgtz2Y


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When it was learned of those who refused to lie about the (soon-to-be) holohoax narrative, they suspiciously 'died' like Baer. Same with Goering.

To quote Harwood in FANTASTIC EXAGGERATIONS:

"So far as is known, the first accusation against the Germans of the mass murder of Jews in war-time Europe was made by the Polish Jew Rafael Lemkin in his book Axis Rule in Occupied Europe, published in New York in 1943. Somewhat coincidentally, Lemkin was later to draw up the U.N. Genocide Convention, which seeks to outlaw "racialism". His book claimed that the Nazis had destroyed millions of Jews, perhaps as many as six millions. This, by 1943, would have been remarkable indeed, since the action was allegedly started only in the summer of 1942. At such a rate, the entire world Jewish population would have been exterminated by 1945."
Wow, those Jews were dropping like flies even after the 6million was reached. Gee in a few more years It could have gone to a billion..lol


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Which is it, when the Holocaust people give their stories they give their stories from their recovered memories Elizabeth Loftus shows that some of these stories are not true.

They're not "recovered memories", since they were never lost memories to begin with.

And still no explanation for your fellow deniers' lies about the "expert report" at the Vienna trial or what Lemkin wrote in his book.
 
Every word is wrong. Lemkin was not the first to expose the Nazi genocide, in fact he can be seen as one of the later ones to point it out. The first ones to bring the world's attention to the unfolding Holocaust was the Polish Resistance, and various Jewish groups in Occupied Poland, two sets of organizations that were acrimonious in regards to their conduct with each other and would have surely never "conspired" in any way together.
They we Jews....that would explain the problems in the narrative in the first place...Why is it that the Jehovah's Witnesses were side by side with the Jews in Auschwitz and they don't mention anything about gas Chambers?

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His testimony is nonsense. Real honest court cases by reputable courts and honorable people would throw this court case out on its ear if they heard all these words using the word exaggerated, inaccurate blah blah blah. Gringuaz would be in heaven dealing with Her steins lies. He may even would have used this quote:
“most of the memoirs and reports of Holocaust survivors are full of preposterous verbosity, graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic *effects, overestimated self-inflation, dilettante philosophizing, would-be lyricism, unchecked rumors, bias, partisan attacks…”

Wow, got context now.....

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Still no context. Gringauz never heard of Gerstien, since Gerstien was not writing about life in the Konvo Ghetto. Gringauz also aknowlaged the Holocaust, being a survivor of it and all.....
 
They we Jews....that would explain the problems in the narrative in the first place...Why is it that the Jehovah's Witnesses were side by side with the Jews in Auschwitz and they don't mention anything about gas Chambers?

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None? Ever? In any testimony? At all?
 
They we Jews....that would explain the problems in the narrative in the first place...Why is it that the Jehovah's Witnesses were side by side with the Jews in Auschwitz and they don't mention anything about gas Chambers?

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The Polish AK was not Jewish and was in fact often antisemetic in its actions.

Jehovah's Witnesses, as IBV category prisoners, were imprisoned at Auschwitz I, and would not have seen what was ocurring at Auschwitz-Birkenau.
 
From which it is clear you are not arguing from evidence, but from a blinkered (bigoted) world view which believes a whole group of people, just because of their culture and beliefs, are somehow less than human to you. That in itself is disgusting, never mind the paucity of "evidence" you provide against one of the best known and understood events in the whole of human history.
Sorry, just using the word of God.

Actually it gets even better

1Thessalonians 2:15-16 ( the Jews )
15*who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and please not God, and are contrary to all men;*16*forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved; to fill up their sins always: but the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

That contrary to all men is interesting.

And one more Biblical nail to your coffin on whether a group of people can act together uncivilized:
Titus 1:12
12*One of Crete’s own prophets*has said it: “Cretans*are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.”[c]*13*This saying is true




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The only way for Sonderkommandos members to escape their fate was to commit suicide, and some of the did it.

Other tried to to revolt as was the case in Treblinka, Sobibor and Auschwitz with a handful of survivors.

It is also recorded that the Germans regularly killed the members of a Sonderkommando because they did not want to let people who were seing what was happening alive.

Finally,very few members of the Sonderkommandos survived the war and, yes, most of them did not feel well because what they had done although they had no real choice. Some of them have puslished books about their experience.
Here we go with the stupid lies that say that Germans killed the Jewish workers because they don't want other people to see what they were doing what complete nonsense.
Why would the Germans care if anybody saw what they were doing? But now all of a sudden you're telling us that the Germans have a conscience,? All you holohoaxers state that the Germans were a killing machine, why would they care who saw them?

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Indeed. HDenier keeps repeating the same misunderstanding of how we know about the Holocaust - in fact, about any historical event or period (because the methods we use to investigate and interpret history do not change because of the object of study): it is not because of a single piece or kind of evidence that we can draw conclusions about the past but on account of a range of pieces of evidence of different types that when taken together create a picture of what happened.

In one sense what we have to explain is all that evidence: We have photographs of the camps, records of where many of the transports went (Gedob records and surviving Fahrplanordnung, bureaucratic correspondence) and other railway timetables, evacuation orders, inventories of goods stolen from victims, construction records (and Pressac's 39 criminal traces, e.g.), etc, various kinds of statistical records and reports, archaeological and other physical evidence at the camps themselves. Further, we have some interesting things like reports from killing squads themselves as well as from the Wehrmacht - some of these, the Ereignismeldungen, were used to convict Einsatzgruppen leaders of murder without witness testimony. We've got documents related to the use of gas vans (e.g., 501-PS and others). We have planning documents and discussion records; we have SS internal investigations and court decisions; we have military war diaries and diaries kept by Frank and Goebbels; we have decrees, orders, and other records relating to implementation of the Final Solution. We've got personnel records of the SS, other police organizations, and Wehrmacht, we've got official reports on the results of actions in making areas free of Jews. And so on.

And we have other documents - newspapers, records of parliamentary debates, speeches by political leaders, and committee hearings. We have diaries and letters written by victims and observers. we have a wide variety of photographs and newsreels and other film footage, we have forensic and medical information (physical studies use increasingly sophisticated investigatory and modeling techniques), we have geographic data and geographic modeling methodologies, we have census records, we have business documents, government decrees and ordinances, internal memoranda, meeting protocols, audio recordings, orders, telegrams, log books and ledgers, architectural blueprints, forensic reports and so on. Yes, we also have the one type of evidence HDenier goes on about, and misinterprets - memoirs, witness testimony, and oral histories.

Using all these kinds of evidence, scholars work out what happened, how, and what people experienced during the period. Unlike HDenier, they do not look at a single kind of evidence in isolation. Given the complexities of evaluating different kinds of evidence, much of it complex, and their interrelationships, historians debate how to best interpret it. Real revisionism is the use of evidence to come to new understandings - not mindless repetition of a few catch phrases or supposed debunking exercises. Real revisionists do not hop around from slogan to slogan but sort through previous interpretations and old and new evidence to re-evaluate historical topics. Also, it has to be noted that historians routinely, as part of their craft, subject all evidence to scrutiny to weigh its value and determine what it can tell them - HDenier's implication that scholars stupidly accept on its face values whatever they come across shows how little HDenier knows about how historians work.
What you just posted you can post for people that believe in UFOs

The problem with your whole Holohoax stories is you don't have a Smoking Gun you don't have the bullets and you don't have the ammunition You talk about gas Chambers but the gas Chambers they show you don't have any that blue pigment that proves zyklon-B used in those gas Chambers the only gas chambers that have zyklon-b are the ones that were used in the fumigation Chambers you people totally misinterpret evidence and then you want to believe that the final solution,( deportation) doesn't mean what it says but It meant execution, complete nonsense.

Why if the holohoax is so true why is there so much falsehoods? The Jews to soap, the Lampshades, the gas Chambers why is there so much falsehoods?

And of course enough lies to get this quote from my friend Gringuaz" For those new here...

“most of the memoirs and reports of Holocaust survivors are full of preposterous verbosity, graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic *effects, overestimated self-inflation, dilettante philosophizing, would-be lyricism, unchecked rumors, bias, partisan attacks…”
–Samuel Gringauz, “Jewish Social Studies” (New York), January 1950,
Vol. 12, p. 65

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They're not "recovered memories", since they were never lost memories to begin with.

And still no explanation for your fellow deniers' lies about the "expert report" at the Vienna trial or what Lemkin wrote in his book.

Yep. None of the therapies Dr. Loftus were attacking were used, either. Totally Irrelevant. They're all liars, and none of them dare to respond.
 
His testimony is nonsense. Real honest court cases by reputable courts and honorable people would throw this court case out on its ear if they heard all these words using the word exaggerated, inaccurate blah blah blah. Gringuaz would be in heaven dealing with Her steins lies. He may even would have used this quote:
“most of the memoirs and reports of Holocaust survivors are full of preposterous verbosity, graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic *effects, overestimated self-inflation, dilettante philosophizing, would-be lyricism, unchecked rumors, bias, partisan attacks…”

Wow, got context now.....

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Real courts make allowances for discrepancies in minor details, because they understand that human memory and perception are fallible, like other evidence. The US rules of evidence for example limit non expert testimony to statements within a witnesses' rational perception. The German courts did the same thing: the Frankfurt judges explicitly said that if there were even a few doubts in a witness' statement, they didn't use it. The judges even visited the sites to confirm for themselves if the witnesses could've seen what they said they did, and they did. Testimonies are not perfect, no evidence is perfect. The important thing is to take the pitfalls into account when analyzing them, and verifying the details with other pieces of evidence, including other teatimonies that they had no influence over. Don't say what courts did or didn't do: you have no idea what actual courts did.

By the way, Gerstein was a German, not a Jew. So your Gringauz spam doesn't apply to him. His testimony has problems with irrelevant minor details, but the core of it was corroborated by his companion Pffanenstiel, both in court and to the Denier Paul Rassinier. Sorry to burst your bubble, but Pfannenstiel also told Rassinier about the Gas chambers.
 
From what I can see deniers are falling into the habit of other conspiracy theorists and pick away at details they don't *think* add up to a holocaust.

What I don't see is anybody presenting a finished theory to best explain the totality of evidence. Who conceived of this hoax. Who arranged the evidence. Why we have archaeological evidence. Who scripts and orchestrates the testimony, and how... Who went back and planted the population data that suggested millions of people went missing, etc.

The idea of a smoking gun is silly. History rarely works like that. (And the denier argument is looking less and less like an attempt to explain historical events in any meaningful way.)
 
No, BLIND ONE. they invented these stories BECAUSE THEY WERE BAD.


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Little boy's having a temper tantrum.

And no, they didn't "invent" anything. The main reason people lie in court or whatever is to hide their guilt or as you say, "pin the blame on someone else". They didn't do that: Sonderkommando talked openly about being Sonderkommando, The Jews at Lodz openly complained about Chaim Rumkowski's corruption, etc. Nothing was covered under the rug. Generally, self incriminating testimony is deemed more reliable because there's no reason one would talk about one's own crimes or shortcomings when accusing someone else, other than simple honesty or a sincere desire to see justice done. It's for this reason that The US federal rules of evidence deems hearsay "declarations against interest" an admissible exception to the hearsay rule. The Holocaust happened: The Jews rightfully blamed the Germans for murdering them and putting them in a horrible position, but they also blamed fellow Jews who sometimes took advantage of the situation and treated them poorly. Sonderkommando openly wrote or talked about being Sonderkommando because they did not care what people thought of them and wanted justice for what their taskmasters did to them. They didn't invent anything, and they didn't cover anything up. They were honest and sincere because everything that they said happened to them, did.
 
Little boy's having a temper tantrum.

And no, they didn't "invent" anything. The main reason people lie in court or whatever is to hide their guilt or as you say, "pin the blame on someone else". They didn't do that: Sonderkommando talked openly about being Sonderkommando, The Jews at Lodz openly complained about Chaim Rumkowski's corruption, etc. Nothing was covered under the rug. Generally, self incriminating testimony is deemed more reliable because there's no reason one would talk about one's own crimes or shortcomings when accusing someone else, other than simple honesty or a sincere desire to see justice done. It's for this reason that The US federal rules of evidence deems hearsay "declarations against interest" an admissible exception to the hearsay rule. The Holocaust happened: The Jews rightfully blamed the Germans for murdering them and putting them in a horrible position, but they also blamed fellow Jews who sometimes took advantage of the situation and treated them poorly. Sonderkommando openly wrote or talked about being Sonderkommando because they did not care what people thought of them and wanted justice for what their taskmasters did to them. They didn't invent anything, and they didn't cover anything up. They were honest and sincere because everything that they said happened to them, did.

Quite apart from anything else "because they were bad", is not an explanation. Bad does not equate to "wanting to be blamed and vilified, wanting to call all aspects of ones own personality into question, wanting to be blamed and hated by many grieving souls".

Oh wait! They are just harmless scamps, and there are no grieving souls to blame them. Because all those who were kept in the camps would see no reason to believe them, or hate them, and were probably in on the prank...

Perhaps one day we will get a real answer to "why"?
 
HDenier said:
You don't have a smoking gun

I do have a smoking gun.

since mid 1946, the process has been expedited by amnesties for youth and certain categories of lesser Nazis. A CFM directive to the control council (April 1947) called for appropriate measures to hasten denazification of principal Nazi and Nazi supporters. Amendments to the law authorized in March 1948 have greatly expedited procedures by allowing German prosecutors to reclassify or exonerate most of the former Nazis. An expedited form of denazification without formal trial has also been authorized for minor categories.

Foreign Relations of the US, 1948 for Germany and Austria

Not a smoking gun for the Holocaust, but a smoking gun nonetheless. The US's official foreign policiy documents make it clear that there was no hoax. The top item on their agenda was to restore Germany to normal and to use it as an ally against the Soviet Union. Therefore, the Hoax HDenier keeps talking about never happened. Even so, the various archives of the Nazi Regime fell into the hands of the USA: the Einsatzgruppen reports, documents about Gas vans, and the like. And former Nazis still talked about the crimes against Jews and non Jews, though as expected they minimized their own roles. Since falsifying evidence was not on the US's Agenda because they wanted to reintegrate and not prosecute Nazis, we can only conclude that the evidence in their custody was 100% Genuine. Documents mentioning gas vans and the Einsatzgruppen killings are 100% authentic, because the events they describe happened. The Germans who spoke about the Holocaust did so of their own free will, because it happened.
Simply put, the hoax never happened. There is no explanation for the evidence of the Holocaust, therefore it happened. The blethering of deniers aside.
 
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