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General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

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CORed and collective cronies, YOU know nothing of history. Yep, Germany and the Soviet Union were allied - in Hitler's attempt to forestall a stupid war over stupid Poland, for reasons EVERYONE knew concerning the murdered ethnic Germans in Poland.

Poland should have been COMPLETELY GERMAN or Reich territory as they beat back the soviets. Problem solved. Without provocation of invading the Soviet Union? Try ICEBREAKER by General Suvorov. The soviets were preparing to invade the Reich.
 
How did I know that you would bring up Suvorov's nonsense book? Unfortunately for him, after actual knowledgeable historians pointed out that his thesis was garbage (and a lot of his supporting "evidence" was just plain wrong), Suvorov himself admitted that his book was basically a collection of speculation and assumptions with zero sources to back up anything he was saying.

EDIT: Also, he was never a "general".
 
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You are right. Viktor Suvorov was a Historian, NOT A General. Thanks for mentioning that because I found some intriguing comments on the review of the book, ICEBREAKER:

"In the event, as the Chief of the General Staff Academy of the Armed Forces of the USSR, General S.P. Ivanov, admitted in 1974, “The Nazi command succeeded in forestalling our troops literally two weeks before the war began.” This was why the advancing German Wehrmacht found millions of Russia’s best troops crowded together with huge supplies of ammunition and fuel in indefensible positions right on the frontier.

Suvorov shows clearly how Stalin came within fourteen days of taking this key step along the path to Bolshevizing the world. 'But Hitler guessed Stalin’s design. That is why WWII ended catastrophically for Stalin. He only got half of Europe, and some places here and there in Asia.' Regardless of the abuse heaped on him by the media and the court historians, this book proves that Adolf Hitler saved the West."
 
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DianeKayKing said:
You are right. Viktor Suvorov was a Historian, NOT A General. Thanks for mentioning that because I found some intriguing comments on the review of the book, ICEBREAKER:

"In the event, as the Chief of the General Staff Academy of the Armed Forces of the USSR, General S.P. Ivanov, admitted in 1974, “The Nazi command succeeded in forestalling our troops literally two weeks before the war began.” This was why the advancing German Wehrmacht found millions of Russia’s best troops crowded together with huge supplies of ammunition and fuel in indefensible positions right on the frontier.

Suvorov shows clearly how Stalin came within fourteen days of taking this key step along the path to Bolshevizing the world. 'But Hitler guessed Stalin’s design. That is why WWII ended catastrophically for Stalin. He only got half of Europe, and some places here and there in Asia.' Regardless of the abuse heaped on him by the media and the court historians, this book proves that Adolf Hitler saved the West."
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Funny how you don't cite where this "review" came from: the neo-Nazi National Vanguard website.

EDIT: And Suvorov isn't a historian, either.
 
DianeKayKing said:
Provoked by Polish atrocities against the Ethnic Germans to the tune of 50,000 murdered. Our country doesn't even need THAT much provocation. Some Israeli soldier stubs his toe and they declare war on Iran. Hitler had cause.
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Where is your source that there were 50,000 dead ethnic Germans in Poland?

The Poles did kill about 7,000 ethnic Germans but this was after the Germans invaded.

Also, if the issue was ethnic Germans, why did Nazi Germany and Poland enjoy a rather friendly relationship throughout the 1930's? Weimar Germany made a bigger deal about the ethnic Germans than the Nazi government.

Hitler only started making noises about the plight of his poor "brethren" after the Poles refused to negotiate over Danzig and the Corridor.
 
JimRizoli said:
The Soviets were the problem.... Agreed?

JR
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They only became a problem after Hitler agreed to give them 1/2 of Poland along with the Baltic states in order to keep them out of the war.

So much for preventing the spread of Communism, eh, Jim?
 
Well, Counter Currents. You DON'T know everything because there is nothing on the site to suggest that they are neo-Nazi or anything of the kind, so YOUR bent and narrow opinion expressed here is merely literary refuse for the simple minded. HOWEVER,

JR BOOKS ON LINE provides THE ACTUAL BOOK (PDF). Read it for yourself. And by the way....:

ICEBREAKER: Viktor Suvorov, a "Russian military historian". He said: "...I would like to suggest that, from the beginning of the war, the Soviet communists made accusations against every country in the world with the deliberate intention of concealing their own role as its instigators."
 
Jeffk 1970 said:
They only became a problem after Hitler agreed to give them 1/2 of Poland along with the Baltic states in order to keep them out of the war.

So much for preventing the spread of Communism, eh, Jim?
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You KNOW, Jeff, that Hitler KNEW he'd have to deal with the communists eventually. This was a mere attempt to circumvent (as I said before) an unnecessary war over STUPID POLAND. Hitler had made numerous overtures of peace to England, and THEY WOULD HAVE NONE OF IT ... that warmongering Churchill!!!! This was a kind of last attempt to possibly cause the Allies to see reason! (Failed because of the heartless saber rattling of their handlers.)
 
JimRizoli said:
Quote from HoloHuxster.....You are lying. And you've repeated a lie that has already been called out

Maybe I'm missing something wasn't it the Soviets that came up with the original 4 million figure of deaths at Auschwitz.....LOL
Ooooops!
Back to the fake document drawing board....

JR
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Well, Jim, at least you didn't say 4 million Jews. I guess that is progress.

The Soviets made the mistake in thinking the mass murder started in 1940 when the camp opened. They also thought that transports ran all of the time, they calculated the "4 million" on the cremation capacity. This is incorrect but many early scholars challenged the "4 million" number, Reitlinger being the most prominent. Hoess himself gave a number that was spot on.
 
DianeKayKing said:
You KNOW, Jeff, that Hitler KNEW he'd have to deal with the communists eventually. This was a mere attempt to circumvent (as I said before) an unnecessary war over STUPID POLAND. Hitler had made numerous overtures of peace to England, and THEY WOULD HAVE NONE OF IT ... that warmongering Churchill!!!! This was a kind of last attempt to possibly cause the Allies to see reason! (Failed because of the heartless saber rattling of their handlers.)
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Diane, Churchill was not Prime Minister at the start of the war, Chamberlain was.

Chamberlain learned his lesson after the Munich Pact that Hitler could not be trusted. His mistake was making guarrantees the BE was in no condition to fulfill. The Poles made a mistake in assuming the French and British would actually follow through with their guarrantees. Hitler made the mistake in thinking the British and French would avoid war.

You are correct in a way, only, Hitler WANTED to deal with the Communists, not needed. Hitler wanted Soviet territory, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact only delayed the inevitable. This was actually Hitler at his pragmatic best, too bad he became a complete megalomaniac and over extended himself.

It's a shame that Europe paid the price for that megalomania.
 
DianeKayKing said:
Well, Counter Currents.
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By which you mean this. Which declares that right at the top of the review that it came from National Vanguard and has a link back to the original NatVan article at the bottom.

You DON'T know everything because there is nothing on the site to suggest that they are neo-Nazi or anything of the kind
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You mean other than reposting articles from National Vanguard, listing under "Our Books" such titles as Truth, Justice, and a Nice White Country, The White Nationalist's Guide to the Movies, and (my favorite) Forever and Ever, "a collection of devotional poems—hymns of praise and somber elegies—written in 1952 and 1953 and dedicated to Adolf Hitler", posting articles promoting white nationalism, and having their "Chief Editor" write "Some of these people are attracted to Nazism because they really believe it is evil. Not much can be done with such people. Others think it is true and good, and they will embrace what is true and good regardless of any stigmas. These people are admirable."?

Read it for yourself.
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I have. It's ****.
 
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DianeKayKing said:
Provoked by Polish atrocities against the Ethnic Germans to the tune of 50,000 murdered. Our country doesn't even need THAT much provocation. Some Israeli soldier stubs his toe and they declare war on Iran. Hitler had cause.
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Does the 50,000 ethnic Germans murdered by the Poles figure come from the same source as the 300,000 deads during the bombing of Dresden figure?
 
DianeKayKing said:
You KNOW, Jeff, that Hitler KNEW he'd have to deal with the communists eventually. This was a mere attempt to circumvent (as I said before) an unnecessary war over STUPID POLAND. Hitler had made numerous overtures of peace to England, and THEY WOULD HAVE NONE OF IT ... that warmongering Churchill!!!! This was a kind of last attempt to possibly cause the Allies to see reason! (Failed because of the heartless saber rattling of their handlers.)
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Diane, you now have two requests to know where you came up with the 50,000 dead ethnic Germans in Poland.

Also, who are you talking about when you say "heartless sabre rattlers?"
 
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DianeKayKing said:
You're very naive championing the brutal, psychopathic Soviets in their day. It would be FAR easier to find ANYTHING that proves they were honorable or humane, because IT DIDN'T EXIST. I suspect posting proof again wouldn't work because you don't READ proofs, just stick your fingers in your ears and blather platitudes. However, since you asked:

SOVIET FAKED DOCUMENTS: "Faked reports dealing with the purported death of Hitler began the deluge and these were followed by endless papers concerning the fate of Martin Bormann who the Soviets claimed was living somewhere in the West, probably protected by the insidious Americans. The same creative writers also heavily edited and enhanced the records of German Army Group Center, captured by their military units, when that entity was overrun during the war.

"The purpose of this exercise was to supply proof that German General Adolf Heusinger, nominated for a high NATO position, had been involved in war crimes on the Eastern Front during the course of the war. The KGB intermingled original, relatively unimportant documents with doctored or completely invented papers, released these through their agencies in the West and awaited the results. Fortunately, other period copies of the original documents were safe in German and American archives and comparisons quickly disclosed the fraudulent nature of the Heusinger attack. (See Security and reduced tension: On the occasion of the 70. birthday of general (ret.) Adolf Heusinger. 4 August 1967. Markus-Verlagsgesellschaft, Cologne 1967.)"
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Your further quote gives no specifics of what was supposedly forged. The citation at the end is a brochure of just over 90 pages, which means it won't exactly devote a lot of space to the Soviet attacks against Heusinger. I've ordered it from a secondhand dealer anyway, out of curiosity.

I've read Dokumente über die Verbrechen Adolf Heusingers gegen den Frieden, seine Kriegsverbrechen und Verbrechen gegen die Menschlichkeit (Moscow, 1962) and found it to be rather meh in its indictment of General Heusinger.

One charge backfired on the East Bloc entirely - they accused Heusinger of drawing up a contingency plan, which is well documented in western archived sources, to invade Switzerland. This was actually worked out in detail by an operations officer, Vincenz Mueller, who had become a senior general in the East German NVA around the same time that Heusinger's appointment to NATO command.

An actual forgery exposed at the time was entirely contemporary, purporting to be a Bundeswehr attack plan against East Germany. Nothing to do with WWII at all.

The document collection contained some reports on reprisals that are also known from US-captured Wehrmacht documents and some reports on bloody antipartisan operations that are likewise confirmed by US-captured military documents.

There was nothing about the Holocaust in the document collection at all.

There's also a virtually negligible amount about the Holocaust in the 800 files of Army Group Centre records now available online from the Russian military-historical archive in Podolsk. There are in fact considerably more documents about the Holocaust in the files of Wehrmacht units belonging to this army group available in western archives.

Considering the Podolsk collection of captured German military records runs to 50 record groups, c.28,000 files and an estimate 2-2.5 million pages of material, the notion that the Soviets would bother to forge all these sources is ludicrous.

This isn't 1961 any more - we aren't limited to the few selected documents the Soviet state published, we can see the full range of files, we can see the originals, and we have decades of experience with the files archives in the west, so we know how things fit together. And they do, time and again.

Do you even read German by the way? Have you studied Army Group Centre for long? I'm wondering what expertise you have to handwave away sources you don't appear to have read.
 
I'm still wondering about the 50,000 ethnic Germans allegedly murdered by the Poles, does Jim, Diane or HD want to weigh in on where this comes from? The highest toll I've ever seen is 7,000 and this occurred after the Germans invaded, not before.
 
DianeKayKing said:
Naive Ivanesca AND bad manners. Continued...

"Many documents were prepared over the years in the event that they might be needed for a future propaganda assault and then left secure in Soviet archives. In addition to these activities, the KGB experts also concocting material proving that many American prisoners of war remained in Vietnam after the American withdrawal, and Mr. Morris, an American historian, was taken in by these as period articles in the New York Times show. Also produced was a series of badly forged papers proving that US citizen, John Demjanjuk, was a notorious German concentration camp guard, which was exposed in U.S. Federal Court proceedings in Virginia. Both of these projects were eventually exposed as frauds, but the problems they engendered during their brief life span were monumental."
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Argument By Quotation doesn't work. Simply repeating what others have said is literally cliched, lazy thinking. You have to discuss a subject in your own words, taking into consideration the sources and evidence, and respond to what others say about a topic.

A few posts back I wrote:

Same goes for the old canard about Demjanjuk's ID card, mentioned in Douglas's web article and quoted on the CODOH thread. This is refuted from two angles: firstly, there are eight other documents identifying Demjanjuk as a Trawniki scattered across four archives and both sides of the old Iron Curtain, secondly, the ID card's characteristics matches other Trawniki ID cards.

You've not responded, and ignored this comment entirely. Your subsequent quote was already refuted before you posted it up.

Just so you know, several years ago I advised the British police on a war crimes investigation into a Trawniki man, and helped prove his innocence. I saw the full range of documentation including the ID cards and personnel files - much more than was available in the late 1980s when the Demjanjuk forgery allegations were doing the rounds. The document that conclusively backed up the suspect's story came from the National Archives of Canada, confirming not only his testimony but also documents that originated from the KGB archive's war crimes files.
 
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