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Continuation Part 21: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Grinder said:
Do you have a link to an English version of Curatolo's Hellmann testimony? I only remember reading news reports.
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I have a bad google translate from the testimony:


"PROSECUTOR - DR. MIGNINI: - Exactly. And the day after that
what happened? What did you see?

Curatolo: - In the afternoon, not so much later, I think it must have been
Two 1'una so, the Carabinieri have come to us of questions and ... because the Police whenever bring de,
They are to take someone and take him away, apart from the questions they had done, none of us responded to what he knew, that we had not seen anything and that we knew nothing. Only that to me I had a doubt
the fact that there were a bustle of cars, police and
Police, at one point I looked out from
railing and saw extraterrestrials before this
Villa, extraterrestrials would those men in white."
 
Vixen said:
The video does show a pail of latex gloves and rags. But then you knew that.

It does contain manga. I am not sure why palanigale claims out of the blue, it doesn't contain manga, when no-one even mentioned manga.

What is planigale hoping to achieve by convincing knowlegeable people the video doesn't exist, the link was a lie and that there is no manga, rags or knives? She or he informs us the aim is to gratutiously call me a liar.
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What on earth does any of this have to do with the horrible events back at the cottage?
 
acbytesla said:
What's bizarre is you are now proving my point that internal prejudices effect judges. Thank you very much.
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No. You are saying judges are influenced by internal prejudices in making their judgments. I said the inequalities we see in judgments is societal.

What's bizarre is that you fail to comprehend the difference, despite my going to the trouble of explaining it to you.
 
Vixen said:
No. You are saying judges are influenced by internal prejudices in making their judgments. I said the inequalities we see in judgments is societal.

What's bizarre is that you fail to comprehend the difference, despite my going to the trouble of explaining it to you.
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No, I simply think you're nuts. You are so wrong. But that's par for the course.
 
Vixen said:
The video does show a pail of latex gloves and rags. But then you knew that.

It does contain manga. I am not sure why palanigale claims out of the blue, it doesn't contain manga, when no-one even mentioned manga.

What is planigale hoping to achieve by convincing knowlegeable people the video doesn't exist, the link was a lie and that there is no manga, rags or knives? She or he informs us the aim is to gratutiously call me a liar.
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You're right. It makes no sense to deny what's there. Hell even if it isn't there why deny it. They spend 3 minutes on the full bottles of bleach. Why? They had found no bleach associated with the crime. As I mentioned before if they had used bleach how could they have forgotten the murder knife? What did they bleach as reported in the court records?
 
BTW in going over Chieffi some more he argues a point in favor of Curatolo's reliability is that both times he was called to testify he had no trouble in recognizing the students on trial as the two from his memory. So he could accurately spot the two most famous defendants in Italy sitting in the courtroom, wow! The Chieffi report is really incredible, it's hard to appreciate just how bad it is.
 
bagels said:
BTW in going over Chieffi some more he argues a point in favor of Curatolo's reliability is that both times he was called to testify he had no trouble in recognizing the students on trial as the two from his memory. So he could accurately spot the two most famous defendants in Italy sitting in the courtroom, wow! The Chieffi report is really incredible, it's hard to appreciate just how bad it is.
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Since you are putting yourself through reading Chieffi perhaps you could paste some gems here.
 
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Grinder said:
Since you are putting yourself through reading Chieffi perhaps you could paste some gems here.
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It would be spam to paste the whole report :D

But there's a lot of outrageous stuff.

In regards to calumny Chieffi writes:

"That the young woman was perfectly aware of his innocence had become clear from the contents of a conversation with her mother that took place on 11-10-2007 ... it signaled her absolute unwillingness to correct the false information she had offered to investigators, at least in the days which followed....At the very least, in the days immediately following her improvident initiative, she could have signalled to the investigators that she had put them on a false trail"

Amanda Knox letter to the police on the 7th:

""Raffaele made dinner...we stayed in bed together...after this period of time we fell asleep and I didn't wake up until Friday morning....This is what happened and I could swear by it. I'm sorry I didn't remember before and I'm sorry I said I could have been at the house when it happened. I said these things because I was confused and scared. I didn't lie when I said I thought the killer was Patrick...I really did think he was the murder[sic]. But now I remember I can't know who was the murder[sic] because I didn't return back to the house."

Chieffi on the "staged" burglary:

"the fact that the glass fragments were found in abundance above the clothing and objects which would have been rummaged through by the burglar, which demonstrated that the disarray had been created before the breaking of the glass"

The elusive glass on clothes never photographed, with the photographs showing glass under clothes, upgraded from merely being alleged to being "found in abundance."

Of course I can't exclude my favorite Chieffi lines on Curatolo and Quintavalle:

"Curatolo was able to identify and easily recognize the two defendants – even some time after the fact – as those he had seen in Piazza Grimana
...
and [Quintavalle's] sighting remained indelible in his mind “for her very clear blue eyes”... the witness also clarified during his testimony that he became convinced that the identity of the girl who appeared in the newspapers was the same as the one who came to his shop first thing on 2 November 2007, given that in the photo it was not possible to see the colour of her eyes, but he became certain once he saw the girl in person in the courtroom."

And for a grand finale Chieffi writes that Hellmann stupidly forgot to use Guede's ruling to convict the students:

" In truth, the Court was absolutely not authorized to disregard the contents of the definitive ruling solely for this reason... since information about the presence of other people had to necessarily be correlated with information about those who had access to the house where the crime was committed. Furthermore, the ruling [concerning Guede] ruled out the possibility that Guede was the perpetrator of the staging which was recognized [by the ruling] to have occurred, and to be attributable to other individuals. ... These passages of argument, properly supported with reasoning, were completely overlooked by the Court of Second Instance, which proposed that the staging could be attributed to Guede, as an individual experienced in thefts. In so doing it engaged in a clear interpretative flight, indicating a marked distance between [its interpretation] and what had been established and legally affirmed in another ruling, and did not adequately justify the incompatibility between [its own conclusions] and the reconstruction which had been developed in the ruling [from Guede’s trial], "
 
Vixen said:
Ah. Chieffi's in on the conspiracy now. Ri-i-ight. :boggled:
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Yet you, or your fellow PGP, have no hesitation in claiming a conspiracy of the masons when it comes to Hellmann and Bruno/Marasca. But the tame PGP judges are supposed to be infallible and unchallengeable.

Don't you see the contradiction here? You have Massei, Nencini and Chieffi on your side, we have Hellmann and Marasca/Bruno. Appeals to authority and sarcasm about "conspiracies" have no logic to them.

The point is Hellmann was right and Chieffi was wrong. The facts are clearly on the side of innocence in this case.
 
Vixen said:
The video does show a pail of latex gloves and rags. But then you knew that.

It does contain manga. I am not sure why palanigale claims out of the blue, it doesn't contain manga, when no-one even mentioned manga.

What is planigale hoping to achieve by convincing knowlegeable people the video doesn't exist, the link was a lie and that there is no manga, rags or knives? She or he informs us the aim is to gratutiously call me a liar.
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The first link you posted took me to a video of Knox's flat. The second I freely admit does take me to a site with several videos from which I chose the one I assume you refer to. I posted the specific link so there could be no confusion about which video, if this is the wrong one then please specify the correct one or preferably a specific link.

It does show a small plastic bin with white latex gloves, but no cleaning rags. The police are uninterested by the gloves so I assume they deposited them. They then look in the bin and find some plastic bags, they seem very interested by plastic bags and receipts. (And drains). It does not seem entirely good practice to have thrown your gloves away in the suspects bin, but maybe I am being too critical.

What this video does not show is what I had been led to think it would or might contain. The 'discovery' of the kitchen knife is not shown, there is no collection of pocket knives shown. There does not seem to be an extensive collection of violent Manga, did Sollecito have only the one magazine? The washing machine is empty.

(FWIW the wiring in Knox's flat looked a fire and safety hazard. The video in Filomena's room does not show copious glass on top of things.)

What is interesting is how people see what they want to see, and remember what is important to them. Vixen sees a pail of cleaning cloths and latex gloves that he thinks were linked to the crime in some way (and presumably to give the defendants a sporting chance Mignini did not use in evidence), I see that the Italian police have carelessly discarded their gloves at Sollecito's flat (presumably when they collected the knives earlier). I see the same knife being used (in place of a screw driver, very unsafe) to free up various things, with no awareness that this would be potentially transferring trace evidence from site to site. Vixen sees knives I miss (he may be right, I may have blanked them or been distracted), this is why it is important to show the original evidence. People can make their own minds up about the cleaning rags. I am still curious how big was the knife collection.

I am not hugely interested in the details of the crime others may know more I agree. What interests me is the misuse of the science. The false certainty and taint f guilt that DNA gives. There is an implication that only guilty people deposit DNA.
 
Annella said:
Its all Machiavelli's fault. :D He has recently brought up this piece of non evidence at twitter and Vixen has grabbed it with both hands it seems. Shame she isn't into homework but I guess with a MENSA brain you don't need distractions such as homework.
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By coincidence, someone called zebbidee on twitter keeps sending tweets to British Mensa "reporting" me for commenting on the case.

LOL.
 
Bill Williams said:
Sigh. You made a claim way, way up thread. Now we're supposed to ask the police!? Never mind.
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Come on, Bill, I know you are a bright guy. There has been a murder at the cottage with a huge amount of blood on the killers' clothing and signs of a clean up. A random burglar won't hang around to mop the floor.

Police no. 1 suspect at an early stage was Raff. Now why would they show an interest in his cleaning materials?

We all await your incisive thoughts.
 
Vixen said:
Yeah, that's what happens when you isolate events into piecemeal.

If there had been a savage murder in your house, the perspective would change.
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What Vixen is trying to say is that if there were a savage murder in your house (well, not your house, but your friend's house. Not like we need to be consistent though, right Vixen?), you would be screwed because there would be a bunch of loony toons on the internet who would then take a mop and bucket in your house used for cleaning as proof you are guilty.

Even if, as an example, there was no DNA evidence of you at the crime scene and there was DNA of a burglar everywhere. This would of course imply you were into vampire manga so it must have been a 4 way pagan murder orgy. Oh, and you also pay off international forensic societies to publish papers on the misuse of DNA evidence. I think that is the rational conclusion from finding a mop and bucket.
 
Vixen said:
Come on, Bill, I know you are a bright guy. There has been a murder at the cottage with a huge amount of blood on the killers' clothing and signs of a clean up. A random burglar won't hang around to mop the floor.

Police no. 1 suspect at an early stage was Raff. Now why would they show an interest in his cleaning materials?

We all await your incisive thoughts.
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"Huge amount of blood on the killer's clothing"!?

You've just exonerated RS and AK. No such blood was found on their clothing. What's left is indication Rudy did it.

Case closed. By Vixen.
 
Vixen said:
Come on, Bill, I know you are a bright guy. There has been a murder at the cottage with a huge amount of blood on the killers' clothing and signs of a clean up. A random burglar won't hang around to mop the floor.
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What signs of a clean up?

Oh yeah, I remember now. According to you Raff bleached the blood off the soles of his shoes. The shoes that left no marks in blood at the cottage. So the proof of a clean up is that there are no shoeprints in blood from Raff but there are from Guede. Any other possible explanation why there are no shoeprints from Raff?

They also managed to clean away all evidence of themselves, (except from the bathroom tap, bathroom mat, bra clasp and knife, criminal masterminds) with bleach, rags, latex gloves and a mop. I guess the prosecution forgot to produce all the results from the testing of these items that prove a clean up.

What happened to the clothing covered in huge amounts of blood? Were they wearing it when seen by the basketball courts for over two hours? Was it in the washing machine that was "still going" when the police arrived?
Was there any blood on their clothes when the police arrived unexpectedly and caught them mid clean up?

Police no. 1 suspect at an early stage was Raff. Now why would they show an interest in his cleaning materials?

We all await your incisive thoughts.
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So Raff was a suspect when questioned. Did they read him his rights, provide legal representation and record the interview?
 
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