acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
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Really? They're morons. Halloween for Amanda is like what it is for pretty much all Americans. Parties and silly costumes.
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Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito
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Really? They're morons. Halloween for Amanda is like what it is for pretty much all Americans. Parties and silly costumes.
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
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Whereas Raffaele's solitary confinement at Capanne can probably be pinned on Mignini; once transferred to the Terni prison it looks to be, as Raffaele says, a decision based on internal-prison administrative reasons. I don't know why that did not register/stick the first time I read his book.
What is compelling, really, is that when Judge Nencini reconvicted the pair in January 2014, he did not order that Raffaele be returned to preventative detention. The issue for the court still seemed to be "flight risk", and Nencini was satisfied that by confiscating his travel documents, that that was enough of a safeguard.
Remember, Nencini made a point of saying that Amanda Knox was legally overseas back in Seattle, albeit provisionally reconvicted.
No doubt the new prosecutor, Crini, simply did not care - and presumably Crini had the same powers in Florence as Mignini had had in Perugia. IMO Crini's laisser-faire attitude towards post-conviction detention betrays how truly punitive Mignini meant to be against Raffaele (and initially Lumumba), in the hopes, it is claimed, that Raffaele would eventually turn on Knox.
Raffaele offers a reason why he ignored all sorts of pressure to do exactly that in his book - and it was more than that he knew her to be as innocent as he was.
It took 7 1/2 years, but Raffaele won his battle of wills against Mignini on this point - and it has yet to finish, because this is one of the main reasons Mignini is suing Sollecito and Gumbel for defamation because of Honor Bound.
My guess is that now there's a complete exoneration of the pair, Mignini is not going to want to go into court with the playing field, finally, tilted against him. Does Mignini really want to risk cross-examination and being seen as sinister like what the Florence prosecutors said about him the last time he was a party to a court case.
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Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
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All I am saying is that she wrote what she wrote.
As for her being a "dope", I'll bow to you character assessment. The exact wording of what she said at the conclusion of the 2009 conviction was, "The prosecution case was weak, but the defence case was weaker. This could very well be overturned at appeal." Which it was, then it wasn't, then it was again.
She was not a dope, though, in being one of the few to monetize the story. She cares little that Winterbottom's film portrays her as an unethical, immoral, cocaine sniffing...... can't say the word because of the MA here. Barbie got her cameo in the film and her paycheque at the end of the day, and she's now a go-to person for CNN on things-Italian.
Not really a dope - not really.
A speculation about possibility #3: Suppose that Bonassi was mistaken in recalling that he had locked his door. Perhaps he had merely closed it so the cat wouldn't wander into the room. Or perhaps he left it open. It would be easier to rationalize entry of Guede into Bonassi's bedroom if Bonassi had not in reality locked the door.
Perhaps Bonassi had intended to lock it - but why would he need to? His flatmates would be gone as well, one can assume Meredith would not disturb his possessions when she watered the pot plants, and the flat on the ground floor of the cottage was seemingly relatively secure against intrusion.
So to rationalize an otherwise difficult to explain circumstance - the blood and disorder in Bonassi's room - I suggest that Bonassi did not lock his door. Guede, using the key he obtained from Meredith, or another key somehow in his possession, opened the downstairs door. Once in the flat, he paid a visit to Bonassi's room. One of the bloodstains on Bonassi's bed suggests parts of the outline of a knife - there is a roughly rectangular stain which would have resulted from the handle, and perhaps some traces outlining the blade. The question remains, then, whether Guede could have set Bonassi's door to lock without a key when he left the room.
RWVBWL
Master Poster
RWVBWL
Master Poster
I'd luv to see Vixen tackle The Downstairs Crime Scene...
It seems that the blue clothing I once thought was boxer briefs
was instead probably Stefano's blue pillow case,
with blood on it.
That darn cat!
Pullin' comforters off of Stefano's pillows,
getting nice, straight bloody lines on it,
+ leavin' another bloody imprint that strangely,
looked similar to the bloody knife handle imprint on Meredith's bed...
That's not a bloody paw print,
or from a cut ear,
is it?
Vixen,
care to chime in with a thought,
or 10?
RW
It seems that the blue clothing I once thought was boxer briefs
was instead probably Stefano's blue pillow case,
with blood on it.
That darn cat!
Pullin' comforters off of Stefano's pillows,
getting nice, straight bloody lines on it,
+ leavin' another bloody imprint that strangely,
looked similar to the bloody knife handle imprint on Meredith's bed...
That's not a bloody paw print,
or from a cut ear,
is it?
Vixen,
care to chime in with a thought,
or 10?
RW
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RWVBWL
Master Poster
vixen said:
vixen said:
Vixen,
you can't tell a hickey from a welt???
You gotta be kidding me!
How come the cops nor everyone else did not notice it that day of Nov. 2nd and ask Miss Knox about this welt. Did they even ask her about it when they interrogated her about Lumumba raping and killing Meredith?
Come on,
mesa chicks aren't that ******,
no?
Oh my gosh,
I give my gal Melissa 1 of these same types of
err hickeys at least every coupla weeks, gotta remind my 28 year old hottie that her old man luvs her.
Amazing what 20 seconds of suckin' my gals neck does,
whether I'm straddling her or just layin' next to her on the beach.
Heck, it seems even Raffaele luvs givin' hickeys too!
Hahaha...
RW
RWVBWL
Master Poster
Good info here,
MichaelB!
I wonder when Vixen is going to share her wisdom with us
regarding Rudy Guede's DNA trail...
Or did I miss her post?
davefoc
Philosopher
Would a key be needed to unlock the bedroom door? In the US almost every bedroom door I've seen has a lock that can be unlocked with a small screw driver from the outside (the locks come with a small screwdriver type tool that most people lose). They're not designed to be burglar resistant.
I take it option 1 was just offered for completeness. It seems silly to the point of implausibility.
Is option 2 supposed to be a reference to Knox? The idea is that she's involved in the murder and decides to enter the downstairs bedroom for some reason. I know the implication was supposed to be obvious but I didn't get it. I tried out a few more people that you might be referring to but none of them fit with my understanding of events. I suppose you might have been referring to Kercher but there are some obvious problems with that idea.
Is option 3 supposed to mean a random intruder that happened to be doing this near the time Guede is killing Kercher?
Option 4 is a variation on the cops were falsifying evidence right away theory. They were in some sense but if they were willing to do it to this degree it seems like AK/RS would have been in prison for the rest of their lives.
All the options seem implausible to me, however I don't have any more plausible options to offer. Is the cat theory completely eliminated? It seems unlikely. The mixed human cat DNA are explained by samples being taken in places where human DNA had mixed with cat blood. The drips leading down stairs are explained by the idea that the cat went downstairs and was dripping blood. The blood on the wall switch in pretty tough to explain as a result of cat blood. It would be a little more plausible if a dead or severely wounded cat had turned up, but it might have been a feral cat that just found a private place to die. A problem with the cat theory for me is that I would have expected a real effort to investigate this thoroughly and that didn't happen.
How about the possibility that major mistakes were made in the testing procedures and the Stefanoni just decided that the cat theory was her best strategy for covering up her errors? I don't think much of that theory either. So I don't know, it seems like the likely explanation is that there is a possibility that hasn't been considered yet.
DanO, the author of the four points, was very complete, although maybe there could be more points, like #5 the cat that was bleeding was a wer-cat and was able to open locked doors.
For point #2, I thought the reference was to Meredith, since she was given the key to the downstairs flat so that she could water the pot plants there and tend to the two cats (one was an indoor cat, the other an outdoor semiferal one, according to Bonassi's witness statement).
I tried to finesse point #3 by speculating that Bonassi had in reality not locked his bedroom door, despite his saying he had in the witness statement. I have no evidence of that; it is a rationalization to make sense of the scene in his bedroom and not give Guede an extra key. If it were an easy, well-known trick to open the bedroom door lock, why did the Perugian police break it open by force? (The default explanation may be that they are stupid and incompetent, but really, wouldn't they have known about a lock?)
While you discount #1 as being too silly, I discount #4 as requiring too much effort and imagination on the part of the police.
See RW's recent post with the images of the nearly rectangular bloodstain on the bed. That downstairs cat really knew how to bleed in exciting geometric ways - not for it only simple round drops.
Another interesting bloodstain grouping is in the bathroom by the wall with the barred window. These blood stains are all round drops, and, IIUC, they are only near the windowed wall - which is also immediately in front of the toilet. Where a man might stand, you know.
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davefoc
Philosopher
As to #1. The idea is that Stefano wanted to hide his messiness/blood letting ways by blaming it on a murder that happened to happen in his house? I just can't see a remotely normal guy being all that embarrassed about his messiness. But hiding his involvement with some sort of crime that involved a loss of blood is, I guess, plausible. But once again forensic examiner malfeasance seems to be required since the claim here is that it was real human blood and the forensic examiner hid that fact. Or perhaps Stefano was in to torturing and mutilating cats. Blood that can't be explained by a mutilated cat can be explained by Stefano getting cat blood on himself and transferring it to what he touched.
As to #2, this has Kercher making her way downstairs after she's been attacked and for some reason returning to her bedroom. Maybe I guess. Guede is threatening her with a knife and she complies, thus no signs of a struggle? Still this is also a permutation of the police malfeasance option since they had to deny that it was Kercher's blood or fail badly to identify the blood as Kercher's.
I think #3 just needs to be expanded to intruder got in to the bedroom and proceeded to trash it and leave blood. Conceivably the intruder had a key, the door wasn't locked or broke in using a non destructive method. So Guede made his way downstairs after the murder. This one seems plausible. What's wrong with this except that it requires some kind of police malfeasance for which there doesn't seem to be a motive to cover it up. Is there a problem with blood drops leaving the down stairs unit for their case against AK/RS?
As to #4, you and I are on the same page. Outright PLE deceit like this seems unlikely for various reasons to me. But option #4 seems to be a necessary element of most of the options. Stefano the cat torturer is perhaps an exception, but I'd put that at the bottom of my list of possibilities if the bottom of my list of possibilities wasn't already full.
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Dan O.
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I try to cover all the angles so scenario 1 is included. It is not however without merit since there was one report that the boys promised to clean the whole house of cat blood before the holiday. It would be good to get a better translation of that.
Scenario 2 is indeed Meredith. At least somebody is paying attention.
For scenario 3, if we look at most of the interroom doors upstairs, the key was in the lock. A cleaner solution for 3 (call it 3b) is that the door was not initially locked but the burglar (call it Rudy) locked the door and took the keys.
Scenario 2 is indeed Meredith. At least somebody is paying attention.
For scenario 3, if we look at most of the interroom doors upstairs, the key was in the lock. A cleaner solution for 3 (call it 3b) is that the door was not initially locked but the burglar (call it Rudy) locked the door and took the keys.
davefoc
Philosopher
Hey, I try. Not all of us have our own private vault of Kercher murder information.
FWIW, I considered that you meant Kercher, but it seemed to require a trip downstairs after an initial attack and then a trip upstairs where she was mortally wounded.
Hmm, maybe your were implying that she was initially attacked downstairs? Regardless wouldn't the kind of wounds she sustained have been bleeding so badly that whichever wound came first, the walk upstairs, if it were possible at all, would have left a serious trail of blood. Were there any incidental wounds that might have bled slowly enough for this theory to be plausible? And then of course, it doesn't explain why the PLE would have hidden the fact of Kercher's blood downstairs.
ETA: I just realized that my speculation based on the common style of American bedroom locks is flawed, if the door was locked. They can't be locked from the outside with normal methods, although I suspect that the small screw driver trick that can be used to unlock them can also be used to lock them. But maybe the house was setup for roommates and thus all doors had exterior style locks installed on them. ETA2: If it was an exterior style lock it could probably have been locked before the intruder exited and then after it was closed it would be locked. ETA3: My apologies. I just realized that some of the discussion has implied old fashioned style locks that you can see through. So I guess that's the kind of lock we're talking about.
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RoseMontague
Published Author
It's been a few years since I looked into it but IIRC, the manga's referred to in the documents that were in Raffaele's possession were not set on Halloween.
I have no idea what Vixen means by the "manga story cops had in mind".
RoseMontague
Published Author
Correction to the above post. Blood: The Last Vampire mentioned in court has one scene that takes place on the eve of a school Halloween party. The rest of the story takes place at different times....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood:_The_Last_Vampire
ETA: The plot of this one seems to have little resemblance to the events in the Kercher murder, perhaps they had a different one in mind. Or possibly having one scene in the story taking place on Halloween eve is a close enough of a connection for Mignini.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood:_The_Last_Vampire
ETA: The plot of this one seems to have little resemblance to the events in the Kercher murder, perhaps they had a different one in mind. Or possibly having one scene in the story taking place on Halloween eve is a close enough of a connection for Mignini.
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The discussion about the downstairs flat is intriguing but irrelevant.
I think we will never have sufficient information to come to any conclusions.
The options are that the downstairs is irrelevant to the crime and therefore discussing it is irrelevant. Or that it is related, but will not alter the conclusion; that Guede alone was the perpetrator.
From the police PoV they had sufficient evidence for Guede's conviction fairly soon. The bloody hand print and DNA from the victim's body and possessions. This is where I think the analysis on http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/guede-dna-investigation/ is wrong. " Having entered Rudy Guede’s apartment on November 16, seized several bloody items, and then identified Rudy Guede as the perpetrator, one would think that in the very next batch of testing (Batch 3: November 23-29) the authorities would analyze these bloody items. However, they did not: instead they focused their Batch 3 analysis exclusively on items that they thought would inculpate Knox and Sollecito, i.e., samples from Sollecito’s residence and auto (none of which, however, were incriminating)." It would be more efficient at that point prioritising investigation towards Guede's suspected accomplices rather than obtaining more evidence against someone who the police already had sufficient evidence.
I suspect that the main point of the discussion is to imply the police investigation and forensic analysis directed by Mignini was incompetent. I wonder how much of that was Mignini's fault and how much the police's. Certainly I think the decision to call in Stefanoni and particularly using her team for the second look was Mignini's choice. I also suspect paying the fingerprint technicians to do the footprint analysis rather than a forensic anthropologist as would be normal was Mignini's choice. I suspect Mignini knew people who would be more likely to give answers he wanted. The footprint analysis is a clear example of just fitting the measurements to match the suspect, rather than delivering an objective expert opinion.
PS Vixen it is important in the discussion to consider are they shoe prints or foot prints or tracks. A forensic anthropologist would have been able to look at the distance between the steps and perhaps concluded something about the height of the person or gender. It is also worth considering that if measuring a footprint one does not get a single shoe size (and vice versa), if you compare foot sizes you do so in mm not shoe size. A forensic anthropologist would also give some idea of how common a foot or shoe size is between genders thus how likely a woman vs a man. Also a proper forensic anthropologist (or podiatrist) would have mentioned the impact on the foot print of the media i.e. firm surface vs. carpet / mat.
See http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ar.b.20025/pdf (good review),
Sex estimation using anthropometry of feet and footprints in a Western Australian population. Forensic Science International 2013;231
402)1-6. Naomi Hemy, Ambika Flavel, Nur-Intaniah Ishak, Daniel FranklinReliability of a two-dimensional footprint measurement approach Science & Justice.2010 50(3):113-118. Sarah Reel, Simon Rouse, Wesley Vernon, Patrick Doherty
ETA no idea why the frown appeared!
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carbonjam72
Master Poster
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I think what's notable about Mignini's closing rant, helpfully provided by Vixen, is that its not supported by any evidence from the actual crime scene.
Mignini literally imagines a bizarre orgy murder scenario in his head which is flatly contradicted by the evidence of only one person in the murder room, then hypothesizes a scientifically impossible clean-up, and looks at his victims' life histories for any incidents that he can in his own twisted mind see as "compatible" with his fantasy crime and fantasy personalities he has created, and declares that as confirming proof.
And the judge and juries, whether through lack of sophistication, ignorance, gullibility, or corruption, just go along with this maniac Mignini.
Millions of people listen to Marilyn Manson, enjoy japanese manga, or dress up and go to Halloween parties, and don't take any of it as inspiration for a Halloween ritual-orgy-murder. But for Mignini, these are all "clues".
People even get tickets for noise complaints on behalf of a loud party, where the least drunk person is sent to handle the police.
I don't see how one can accept the prosecution of Amanda and Raf could have occurred in Italy, without acknowledging two things: 1) Mignini is mentally unbalanced, and 2) the judges, police, media and juries all supported and protected him from being exposed by not challenging him openly.
The residual trappings of a Fascist state, embodied by Italy's justice system, breeds fear, and is well suited to a sadistic madman like Mignini to abuse.
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carbonjam72
Master Poster
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Downstairs Relevance & Good Faith Investigation
I agree that the evidence against Rudy Guede,acting alone, found in the murder room is overwhelming. And also, that there is no credible evidence Amanda and Raf ever left their apartment.
So from a minimalist perspective of reaching a verdict of guilty for Rudy Guede alone, and acquittal of Amanda and Raf, then I agree the downstairs evidence is superfluous for this limited purpose.
But the downstairs crime scene did turn up evidence that has been suppressed, such as human DNA profiles, including blood on a light switch. It shows, once again, bad faith on the part of the police and prosecution.
Rudy Guede breaking in downstairs adds context to his breaking in upstairs, it provides a fuller and more complete picture of the totality of the crime and its aftermath. And it also sheds light on the corrupt nature of the police investigation in concealing and with-holding exonerating evidence from the defense.
I object to this analysis, because it overlooks police malfeasance, which is so plainly present.
I do also agree with your point that focusing on Amanda and Raf to test their involvement after they had sufficient evidence against Rudy Guede isn't inexplicable. It's consistent both/all with 1) testing their hypothesis which they would have to do in any event, 2) confirming their erroneous belief stemming from confirmation bias, and/or 3) actual framing of defendants they knew or strongly suspected were actually innocent (my money is on 2 and 3).
The downstairs investigation is also relevant not only because it informs the crime, but for what it says about the 'good faith' of the investigators and prosecution.
The discussion about the downstairs flat is intriguing but irrelevant. I think we will never have sufficient information to come to any conclusions.The options are that the downstairs is irrelevant to the crime and therefore discussing it is irrelevant. Or that it is related, but will not alter the conclusion; that Guede alone was the perpetrator.
From the police PoV they had sufficient evidence for Guede's conviction fairly soon. The bloody hand print and DNA from the victim's body and possessions. This is where I think the analysis on http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/guede-dna-investigation/ is wrong. " Having entered Rudy Guede’s apartment on November 16, seized several bloody items, and then identified Rudy Guede as the perpetrator, one would think that in the very next batch of testing (Batch 3: November 23-29) the authorities would analyze these bloody items. However, they did not: instead they focused their Batch 3 analysis exclusively on items that they thought would inculpate Knox and Sollecito, i.e., samples from Sollecito’s residence and auto (none of which, however, were incriminating)." It would be more efficient at that point prioritising investigation towards Guede's suspected accomplices rather than obtaining more evidence against someone who the police already had sufficient evidence.
I suspect that the main point of the discussion is to imply the police investigation and forensic analysis directed by Mignini was incompetent. I wonder how much of that was Mignini's fault and how much the police's. Certainly I think the decision to call in Stefanoni and particularly using her team for the second look was Mignini's choice. I also suspect paying the fingerprint technicians to do the footprint analysis rather than a forensic anthropologist as would be normal was Mignini's choice. I suspect Mignini knew people who would be more likely to give answers he wanted. The footprint analysis is a clear example of just fitting the measurements to match the suspect, rather than delivering an objective expert opinion.
PS Vixen it is important in the discussion to consider are they shoe prints or foot prints or tracks. A forensic anthropologist would have been able to look at the distance between the steps and perhaps concluded something about the height of the person or gender. It is also worth considering that if measuring a footprint one does not get a single shoe size (and vice versa), if you compare foot sizes you do so in mm not shoe size. A forensic anthropologist would also give some idea of how common a foot or shoe size is between genders thus how likely a woman vs a man. Also a proper forensic anthropologist (or podiatrist) would have mentioned the impact on the foot print of the media i.e. firm surface vs. carpet / mat.
See http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ar.b.20025/pdf (good review),
Sex estimation using anthropometry of feet and footprints in a Western Australian population. Forensic Science International 2013;231
Reliability of a two-dimensional footprint measurement approach Science & Justice.2010 50(3):113-118. Sarah Reel, Simon Rouse, Wesley Vernon, Patrick Doherty
ETA no idea why the frown appeared!
I agree that the evidence against Rudy Guede,acting alone, found in the murder room is overwhelming. And also, that there is no credible evidence Amanda and Raf ever left their apartment.
So from a minimalist perspective of reaching a verdict of guilty for Rudy Guede alone, and acquittal of Amanda and Raf, then I agree the downstairs evidence is superfluous for this limited purpose.
But the downstairs crime scene did turn up evidence that has been suppressed, such as human DNA profiles, including blood on a light switch. It shows, once again, bad faith on the part of the police and prosecution.
Rudy Guede breaking in downstairs adds context to his breaking in upstairs, it provides a fuller and more complete picture of the totality of the crime and its aftermath. And it also sheds light on the corrupt nature of the police investigation in concealing and with-holding exonerating evidence from the defense.
I object to this analysis, because it overlooks police malfeasance, which is so plainly present.
I do also agree with your point that focusing on Amanda and Raf to test their involvement after they had sufficient evidence against Rudy Guede isn't inexplicable. It's consistent both/all with 1) testing their hypothesis which they would have to do in any event, 2) confirming their erroneous belief stemming from confirmation bias, and/or 3) actual framing of defendants they knew or strongly suspected were actually innocent (my money is on 2 and 3).
The downstairs investigation is also relevant not only because it informs the crime, but for what it says about the 'good faith' of the investigators and prosecution.
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Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
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I tend to agree with this.
As guilters are fond of pointing out, the whole cottage is the crime scene. The problem with the guilters is that by that they mean.....
..... ignore the implications of there being only one forensic profile in the murder room.
Taking the whole cottage as the crime scene, if nothing else, hilights the ineptitude of the PLE. Look at the video the cops themselves shot of the way they opened the downstairs door!
One of the cops put her boot through the glass! How can anyone take the case against AK and TS seriously after seeing the cops own videos?
No wonder they deep-sixed the interrogation tapes!
My problem is how much is incompetence (most in my opinion), how much malfeasance (and if so how much is the responsibility of Mignini as the investigating magistrate vs the police). I think Mignini perverted the course of the investigation, I suspect he drove the investigation against Knox. Certainly the decision to withhold access to lawyers and argue for solitary confinement were his. It was Mignini that introduced the case against Knox and Sollecito into Guede's case, establishing judicial facts. Mignini chose not to prosecute Guede for 1) Theft of phones, 2) Theft of money, 3) Breaking in or staging of a breaking in, 4) Carriage of a knife. All of which was tactical aimed at supporting the case against Knox. (I leave out Sollecito, as I think Knox was his target, and Sollecito co-lateral damage.)
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