Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Bill Williams]

It's to do with wiretapping.

Trying to conflate the MOF case with this one has given rise to all sorts of logic fallacies.

Just because Mignini thought the MOF serial-killer-over-several-years-case may have involved high level masonic network s and satanists, does not logically follow he believes the Kercher case is the same.

At the level of logic, you are quite correct. Why, then, did Barbie Nadeau, a friend to the prosecution, write that co-prosecutor Maneula Comodi threatened to quit the case if Mignini took the essence of the MOF case to trial with the Kercher case? Why does Douglas Preston, no friend to Mignini, in a different way corroborate what Nadeau wrote about Mignini's take on the motive for the crime?

 

[Vixen]

Do you then admit the same about Sollecito and Knox?

What? Are you saying there was no crime?

 

[Grinder]

Barristers have always been allowed poetic licence to ham up. What about Bongiornio flashing a bunch of knives at Nencini? How did she get past security?

Wow. You said people here were the only ones using the word witch. You are shown that wasn't true. Then you say that's only one reporter. Then you are shown 5 stories from major sources including the BBC and you make some non sequitur about knives.

 

[Vixen]

At the level of logic, you are quite correct. Why, then, did Barbie Nadeau, a friend to the prosecution, write that co-prosecutor Maneula Comodi threatened to quit the case if Mignini took the essence of the MOF case to trial with the Kercher case? Why does Douglas Preston, no friend to Mignini, in a different way corroborate what Nadeau wrote about Mignini's take on the motive for the crime?

It's all a game of words. Mignini doesn't speak English so people can make up all sorts of quotes.

You have been informed by Grinder that Mignini citing satanism in the Kercher case has never been found. The NY Post hack misused quotation marks to look as though Mignini did, being too lazy to check that actually Mignini was referring to a dark manga scenario.

 

[Grinder]

At the level of logic, you are quite correct. Why, then, did Barbie Nadeau, a friend to the prosecution, write that co-prosecutor Maneula Comodi threatened to quit the case if Mignini took the essence of the MOF case to trial with the Kercher case? Why does Douglas Preston, no friend to Mignini, in a different way corroborate what Nadeau wrote about Mignini's take on the motive for the crime?

Bill, Barbie is a dope. She wasn't a friend to the prosecution. She was and is a dope. She said at the end of the first trial that the kids wouldn't have been found guilty if their defense had done a decent job. Preston obviously hates Mignini so his takes are a bit biased.

 

[Vixen]

Wow. You said people here were the only ones using the word witch. You are shown that wasn't true. Then you say that's only one reporter. Then you are shown 5 stories from major sources including the BBC and you make some non sequitur about knives.

They are run of the mill newspaper reports sourced from Reuters or AP quoting Patrick Lumumba barrister Carlo Pacelli.

"She-devil" was his florid courtroom theatrics.

Most witches are "white witches", and not "devils", or so I have been told by a couple of wican friends.

 

[Grinder]

They are run of the mill newspaper reports sourced from Reuters or AP quoting Patrick Lumumba barrister Carlo Pacelli.

"She-devil" was his florid courtroom theatrics.

Most witches are "white witches", and not "devils", or so I have been told by a couple of wican friends.

You said people here were the only ones saying she was called a witch by the Italians which obviously isn't true.

 

[Numbers]

DanO and other observers: There is what could (or might) be bloodstain spots on a wall (I think it's a wall) in the pot-cultivation closet downstairs in the downstairs video at about 18:49 to 18:50 (near the end of the video clip). I would appreciate anyone interested to take a look and give an opinion. Maybe it is merely some dirt or mold on the wall?

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/blood-evidence-downstairs-apartment/

 

[Vixen]

You said people here were the only ones saying she was called a witch by the Italians which obviously isn't true.

Pacelli referred to a "she-devil" in his court room submission for Lumumba. It was not "five stories", it was one, reproduced routinely by all newspapers as a breaking story.

The hack from the GRAUNIAD wrote an article quoting from Salem witch trials of C18, which was a complete non sequitur, as Pacelli didn't even mention a witch.

You are completely unable to produce a citation wherein Amanda was called a witch or tried as a witch.

 

[Vixen]

As usual, Mignini says nothing that you asserted, but what a remarkable rambling of an obsessed lunatic.
Marilyn Manson would make anyone a murderer, no doubt about it, case solved

If high school shooters and the Scream teenage murderers can have infantile obessions and futile motives for killing, then given how juvenile Raff was for his age (taking his knife with him to the questura!), Marilyn Manson might well be a stupid motive.

ETA Marilyn Manson was purported to be an influence in the Columbine school massacre.
Manson made his film debut in 1997, as an actor in David Lynch's Lost Highway. Since then he has appeared in a variety of minor roles and cameos. He was interviewed in Michael Moore's political documentary Bowling for Columbine, discussing possible motivations for the 1999 Columbine massacre and allegations that his music was somehow a factor.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_Manson

 

[Dan O.]

Heheh, you've been taken in by the wide eyes and slobbery lick.

You are the one casting accusations without the backing of evifpdence.

 

[Kauffer]

It's all a game of words. Mignini doesn't speak English so people can make up all sorts of quotes.

You have been informed by Grinder that Mignini citing satanism in the Kercher case has never been found. The NY Post hack misused quotation marks to look as though Mignini did, being too lazy to check that actually Mignini was referring to a dark manga scenario.

You've got this wrong again! The NY post article, like numerous others, quotes Mignini in the Micheli court. The Italian press covered it - I've cited La Republica too - and Micheli's motivation report summarised it. The reference is not directly to satanism, but it is to a Halloween rite, sexual and sacrificial in nature - utter madness. It is even worse that Mignini, according to Micheli, cited a manga comic.

Here's the NY post except again, since you maintained an error in quotation. You will see there is no possible error which can cause a reader to think Mignini mentioned satanism directly. I've separated out the Mignini quotation for you so it will be easier for you to recognise it:

"Mignini always included witch fear in his murder theory, and only reluctantly relinquished it. As late as October 2008, a year after the murder, he told a court that the murder

“was premeditated and was in addition a ‘rite’ celebrated on the occasion of the night of Halloween. A sexual and sacrificial rite [that] in the intention of the organizers … should have occurred 24 hours earlier” — on Halloween itself — “but on account of a dinner at the house of horrors, organized by Meredith and Amanda’s Italian flatmates, it was postponed for one day.”

 

[moije2]

Solitary confinement

This is off the current topics but I have an unanswered question that maybe someone can answer for me. Or direct me to a discussion.

I have have been curious for some time as to how it was that Raffaele a was put into solitary confinement before final conviction. does anybody know the legal basis for this? This is in fact happened? And if it did happen, at what point during all of these proceedings did it happen?

I would like to think that at least it did not happen until the first conviction. even though by all discussions that conviction was not final according to Italian law. I did make a brief stab at researching this again but could find no discussion about this. I only found my previous similar request for information from about a year ago or something like that. it seems like the level of extra punishment must surely trigger some human rights violation. Numbers?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Kauffer]

This is off the current topics but I have an unanswered question that maybe someone can answer for me. Or direct me to a discussion.

I have have been curious for some time as to how it was that Raffaele a was put into solitary confinement before final conviction. does anybody know the legal basis for this? This is in fact happened? And if it did happen, at what point during all of these proceedings did it happen?

I would like to think that at least it did not happen until the first conviction. even though by all discussions that conviction was not final according to Italian law. I did make a brief stab at researching this again but could find no discussion about this. I only found my previous similar request for information from about a year ago or something like that. it seems like the level of extra punishment must surely trigger some human rights violation. Numbers?

Thanks in advance.

Here you go:

"Giuliano Mignini at the first trial requested a life sentence + 9 months of solitary confinement for Amanda Knox and life + 2 months of solitary for Raffaele Sollecito who had already spent 6 months in solitary in 2008. People at the time speculated he wanted to send Amanda Knox in particular mentally insane before her appeal trial started. The request for solitary was under Article 41-bis of the Prison Administration Act which is normally only used to isolate Mafia bosses not model prisoners. It involves limited family visits, isolation and a video camera in the cell watching the prisoner 24 hours a day including when they shower and use the toilet. Judge Massei sentenced Amanda to 26 years with mitigating circumstances. Mignini appealed the mitigating circumstances and again requested life + 9 months of solitary. Part of the prosecution’s appeal included citing a Daily Mail tabloid article about a noise ticket Amanda received for a party in Seattle. It’s on page 7 of the prosecution 2010 appeal document. See also Call for solitary confinement of pair accused of killing Meredith Kercher UK Guardian, Nov 22, 2009."

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/frequently-asked-questions/

 

[moije2]

Here you go:

"Giuliano Mignini at the first trial requested a life sentence + 9 months of solitary confinement for Amanda Knox and life + 2 months of solitary for Raffaele Sollecito who had already spent 6 months in solitary in 2008. People at the time speculated he wanted to send Amanda Knox in particular mentally insane before her appeal trial started. The request for solitary was under Article 41-bis of the Prison Administration Act which is normally only used to isolate Mafia bosses not model prisoners. It involves limited family visits, isolation and a video camera in the cell watching the prisoner 24 hours a day including when they shower and use the toilet. Judge Massei sentenced Amanda to 26 years with mitigating circumstances. Mignini appealed the mitigating circumstances and again requested life + 9 months of solitary. Part of the prosecution’s appeal included citing a Daily Mail tabloid article about a noise ticket Amanda received for a party in Seattle. It’s on page 7 of the prosecution 2010 appeal document. See also Call for solitary confinement of pair accused of killing Meredith Kercher UK Guardian, Nov 22, 2009."

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/frequently-asked-questions/

thank you!

I plan on reading those sources in more detail after work! Amazing isn't it? Raphaela spent 6 months in solitary confinement, according to this, before the first conviction. which at that point is still not even a final conviction. Amazing!

apologies for the misspelling of Rafaeles name. Voice recognition on this phone is much easier!

 

[RoseMontague]

In Italy prosecutors have to put forward a possible reconstruction and motive. Seems a good enough submission as any.

So Mignini has convinced you that it was a sacrificial rite with ties to the Masons and Manga comics?

 

[Katody Matrass]

If high school shooters and the Scream teenage murderers can have infantile obessions and futile motives for killing, then given how juvenile Raff was for his age (taking his knife with him to the questura!), Marilyn Manson might well be a stupid motive.

Let's not throw all logic and common sense away.

Guede murdered Kercher during a burglary. A very common murder scenario supported by all the evidence.

 

[Katody Matrass]

So Mignini has convinced you that it was a sacrificial rite with ties to the Masons and Manga comics?

Not only that. A powerful cabal of (masons/Satanists/reptilians) hypnotized the Supreme Court to get a not guilty verdict.

 

[Bill Williams]

This is off the current topics but I have an unanswered question that maybe someone can answer for me. Or direct me to a discussion.

I have have been curious for some time as to how it was that Raffaele a was put into solitary confinement before final conviction. does anybody know the legal basis for this? This is in fact happened? And if it did happen, at what point during all of these proceedings did it happen?

I would like to think that at least it did not happen until the first conviction. even though by all discussions that conviction was not final according to Italian law. I did make a brief stab at researching this again but could find no discussion about this. I only found my previous similar request for information from about a year ago or something like that. it seems like the level of extra punishment must surely trigger some human rights violation. Numbers?

Thanks in advance.

Acc. to "Honor Bound", Raffaele's book, he was taken to solitary confinement at his arrival at Capanne on Nov 6, 2007. Raffaele seems to blame his father's chosen lawyer, Tedeschi, for being out of his depth and completely ineffectve in challenging what the PM was doing - Raffael's father eventually fired Tedeschi. Raffaele was being held in complete isolation in the 48 hours up to ten minutes before the preliminary hearing - not allowed to see a lawyer or family - in a manner usually reserved for terrorists or major Mafia crimes.

Raffaele then blames himself for his statements at the hearing in front of Matteini. The main issue was whether or not Raffaele's Nikes were a match for the Nike's print found in Meredith's room. Mignini could only get an, "it's a theoretical possibility," from the Foligno police, who themselves were working off of a photograph of the shoes.

Raffaele says that the big mistake was insisting that he be allowed to speak at this preliminary hearing. IMO he makes the same mistake all innocent people make, that their innocence will be obvious. He also made some bad gaffes, saying he'd never before met Lumumba, when in fact he had.

Although Matteini eventually rejected two of Mignini's criteria for keeping him in prison for up to a year in "preventative detention" - namely, 1) being a danger to reoffend, and 2) being a danger to tamper with evidence - Matteini agreed with Mignini on the third - flight risk, chiefly because Patrick and Amanda were foreigners. It was deemed that if Amanda fled, Raffaele might flee with her.

Raffaele was sent back to solitary, although had access to telegram-communication with his father. Apparently, Lumumba was in an isolation cell next to him.

Raffaele eventually got a working TV, newspapers and proper blankets. Lawyer visits were now permitted.

Despite the Nov 21 search of Guede's apartment, where Delfo Berrerri (one of Raffaele's new lawyers) got a picture of Nike prints there made in mud - showing a match with the Nikes in Meredith's bedroom.....

.... officially the defence was not allowed to get copies of prosecution's official files until the investigation was declared over.

At the end of November 2007, there was a three-judge review of the Matteini decision. At this hearing Mignini invented the "mushroom theory of digestion", to explain a late time of death for the victim. The one thing coroner Lalli was adamant about was that stomach digestion argued for an early TOD. Not so, said Mignini, Meredith and Amanda could have eaten mushrooms after both arrived home on Nov. 1.

Also, based on eye-balling photos of the climb in through Filomena's window, which they deemed impossible, as well as taking Amanda's secretly recorded prison statement, "I was there," to refer to being at the cottage, the panel confirmed everything Mignini brought, save for inexplicably moving the TOD to 10 pm.

Raffaele says he was returned to solitary confinement, now convinced it was a tactic to get him to turn on Amanda. Also at this time despite his doubts expressed in Matteini's court about Amanda's whereabouts on Nov 1, he figured out she couldn't have gone out. That story has remained unchanged since.

Eventually even in these conditions, Raffaele was allowed to finish his thesis, relying on his lawyers to ferry back and forth essential materials/books. It was after the defence of his thesis in front of five professors that his solitary confinement was supposed to end, with his transfer to Terni.

Yet when he got to the prison, it had no room anywhere except for solitary confinement. He was there until May 2008, mainly for internal administrative reasons. He was sent to the "protected section" of the prison where all the rapists and jailhouse snitches were. However, he was told that the move was because of his notoriety.

 

[moije2]

Acc. to "Honor Bound", Raffaele's book, he was taken to solitary confinement at his arrival at Capanne on Nov 6, 2007. Raffaele seems to blame his father's chosen lawyer, Tedeschi, for being out of his depth and completely ineffectve in challenging what the PM was doing - Raffael's father eventually fired Tedeschi. Raffaele was being held in complete isolation in the 48 hours up to ten minutes before the preliminary hearing - not allowed to see a lawyer or family - in a manner usually reserved for terrorists or major Mafia crimes.

Raffaele then blames himself for his statements at the hearing in front of Matteini. The main issue was whether or not Raffaele's Nikes were a match for the Nike's print found in Meredith's room. Mignini could only get an, "it's a theoretical possibility," from the Foligno police, who themselves were working off of a photograph of the shoes.

Raffaele says that the big mistake was insisting that he be allowed to speak at this preliminary hearing. IMO he makes the same mistake all innocent people make, that their innocence will be obvious. He also made some bad gaffes, saying he'd never before met Lumumba, when in fact he had.

Although Matteini eventually rejected two of Mignini's criteria for keeping him in prison for up to a year in "preventative detention" - namely, 1) being a danger to reoffend, and 2) being a danger to tamper with evidence - Matteini agreed with Mignini on the third - flight risk, chiefly because Patrick and Amanda were foreigners. It was deemed that if Amanda fled, Raffaele might flee with her.

Raffaele was sent back to solitary, although had access to telegram-communication with his father. Apparently, Lumumba was in an isolation cell next to him.

Raffaele eventually got a working TV, newspapers and proper blankets. Lawyer visits were now permitted.

Despite the Nov 21 search of Guede's apartment, where Delfo Berrerri (one of Raffaele's new lawyers) got a picture of Nike prints there made in mud - showing a match with the Nikes in Meredith's bedroom.....

.... officially the defence was not allowed to get copies of prosecution's official files until the investigation was declared over.

At the end of November 2007, there was a three-judge review of the Matteini decision. At this hearing Mignini invented the "mushroom theory of digestion", to explain a late time of death for the victim. The one thing coroner Lalli was adamant about was that stomach digestion argued for an early TOD. Not so, said Mignini, Meredith and Amanda could have eaten mushrooms after both arrived home on Nov. 1.

Also, based on eye-balling photos of the climb in through Filomena's window, which they deemed impossible, as well as taking Amanda's secretly recorded prison statement, "I was there," to refer to being at the cottage, the panel confirmed everything Mignini brought, save for inexplicably moving the TOD to 10 pm.

Raffaele says he was returned to solitary confinement, now convinced it was a tactic to get him to turn on Amanda. Also at this time despite his doubts expressed in Matteini's court about Amanda's whereabouts on Nov 1, he figured out she couldn't have gone out. That story has remained unchanged since.

Eventually even in these conditions, Raffaele was allowed to finish his thesis, relying on his lawyers to ferry back and forth essential materials/books. It was after the defence of his thesis in front of five professors that his solitary confinement was supposed to end, with his transfer to Terni.

Yet when he got to the prison, it had no room anywhere except for solitary confinement. He was there until May 2008, mainly for internal administrative reasons. He was sent to the "protected section" of the prison where all the rapists and jailhouse snitches were. However, he was told that the move was because of his notoriety.

thank you for all of that link the response Bill Williams. much to consider. My current fascination is this idea of extra judicial punishment that seems to be available outside of direct court determinations. and at the direction of the prosecutor, Mignini. so not only does the prosecutor direct the investigation and the police and forensics folks apparently, he seemingly can direct actions within those folks in charge of custody ie the prison. I suspect some of that goes on everywhere even other Western European countries, Canada, and or the United States. However, again I am fascinated in a bad way I should say, by 6 to 8 months of solitary confinement for reasons which are not self-evident to me at this point. Rafael A's suggestion in his book that it was done with the goal of breaking him seems logical although not ethical.

In my book 6 to 8 months of solitary is cruel especially if you are not considered finally convicted yet. perhaps it was not truly solitaire? Maybe just a special wing of the prison? at any rate thank you all for your responses I will get to my reading!