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Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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the lamp obvs

OBVS? "Obviously?"

If you mean Amanda's lamp that was eventually found behind Meredith's bedroom door, there are many possibilities how it came to be found there:

1 - Meredith came home and her own lamp wasn't working, so she borrowed Amanda's lamp.

2 - the killer (Guede) may have brought Amanda's lamp into the room for better light to rape Meredith under.

3 - there's also speculation that one of the cops brought in Amanda's lamp to illuminate the crime scene. Did they ever test the lamp for prints or DNA? Probably not, or if they did, they buried the results.

Amanda testified that she didn't have a clue how her lamp ended up in Meredith's bedroom. If Amanda were guilty, Then Amanda probably would have said she had loaned Meredith her lamp to escape that unknown.

In any event, since Meredith's bedroom wasn't cleaned post-murder (as even Nencini concedes), whoever moved the lamp there, it wasn't for purposes of a cleanup!

This falls under the usual 'Guilter' meme, that if something can't be fully explained, then Amanda is guilty!

With this sort of evidence against her, I dunno why they just didn't cut to the chase and drop Amanda in a pool of water to see if she floated or not?

If she drowned, she's innocent. If she lived, she's a witch.
 
OBVS? "Obviously?"

If you mean Amanda's lamp that was eventually found behind Meredith's bedroom door, there are many possibilities how it came to be found there:

1 - Meredith came home and her own lamp wasn't working, so she borrowed Amanda's lamp.

2 - the killer (Guede) may have brought Amanda's lamp into the room for better light to rape Meredith under.

3 - there's also speculation that one of the cops brought in Amanda's lamp to illuminate the crime scene. Did they ever test the lamp for prints or DNA? Probably not, or if they did, they buried the results.

Amanda testified that she didn't have a clue how her lamp ended up in Meredith's bedroom. If Amanda were guilty, Then Amanda probably would have said she had loaned Meredith her lamp to escape that unknown.

In any event, since Meredith's bedroom wasn't cleaned post-murder (as even Nencini concedes), whoever moved the lamp there, it wasn't for purposes of a cleanup!

This falls under the usual 'Guilter' meme, that if something can't be fully explained, then Amanda is guilty!

With this sort of evidence against her, I dunno why they just didn't cut to the chase and drop Amanda in a pool of water to see if she floated or not?

If she drowned, she's innocent. If she lived, she's a witch.

It was a joke. I believe they're innocent.
 
OBVS? "Obviously?"

If you mean Amanda's lamp that was eventually found behind Meredith's bedroom door, there are many possibilities how it came to be found there:

1 - Meredith came home and her own lamp wasn't working, so she borrowed Amanda's lamp.

2 - the killer (Guede) may have brought Amanda's lamp into the room for better light to rape Meredith under.

3 - there's also speculation that one of the cops brought in Amanda's lamp to illuminate the crime scene. Did they ever test the lamp for prints or DNA? Probably not, or if they did, they buried the results.

Amanda testified that she didn't have a clue how her lamp ended up in Meredith's bedroom. If Amanda were guilty, Then Amanda probably would have said she had loaned Meredith her lamp to escape that unknown.

In any event, since Meredith's bedroom wasn't cleaned post-murder (as even Nencini concedes), whoever moved the lamp there, it wasn't for purposes of a cleanup!

This falls under the usual 'Guilter' meme, that if something can't be fully explained, then Amanda is guilty!

With this sort of evidence against her, I dunno why they just didn't cut to the chase and drop Amanda in a pool of water to see if she floated or not?

If she drowned, she's innocent. If she lived, she's a witch.



Congratulations! I have never seen one poster use so many logical fallacies in one post. Namely, the non sequitur, the appeal to the emotions, the appeal to spite, the straw man, the tu quoche, putting words in my mouth, false analogy, conditional fallacy (Amanda didn't take the lamp into Mez' room, therefore it must have been Rudy!). Sheesh!
 
Congratulations! I have never seen one poster use so many logical fallacies in one post. Namely, the non sequitur, the appeal to the emotions, the appeal to spite, the straw man, the tu quoche, putting words in my mouth, false analogy, conditional fallacy ...

Well, thank you (I guess?)

Do I win a set of steak knives, or was my busting new boundaries a thankless honor?

(Amanda didn't take the lamp into Mez' room, therefore it must have been Rudy!). Sheesh!

I NEVER said Rudy Guede "must have" moved the lamp, but since Guede has admitted to being there, Guede may have moved the lamp? How can that possibility be ruled out?

As I had stated, other lamp-movers may have been Meredith herself, or even the police? Or, even someone else?

Just because we don't know how the lamp was moved (or why), that UNKNOWN can't be used as evidence AGAINST Amanda Knox.

You do grok the concepts of 'EVIDENCE' and 'UNKNOWN", right?

In R/L, are you Alice's red Queen of Hearts?
:wackywub:
 
Vixen if it had been Filomena's lamp would that make her a suspect?

Isn't it obvious that anyone wanting a lamp would take the nearest one? Even if her prints were on her own lamp, it wouldn't mean anything.
 
Congratulations! I have never seen one poster use so many logical fallacies in one post. Namely, the non sequitur, the appeal to the emotions, the appeal to spite, the straw man, the tu quoche, putting words in my mouth, false analogy, conditional fallacy (Amanda didn't take the lamp into Mez' room, therefore it must have been Rudy!). Sheesh!

Out of curiosity, have you read any of your own posts? I think you more than give Ken Dine's post a run for its money.:rolleyes:
 
Congratulations! I have never seen one poster use so many logical fallacies in one post. Namely, the non sequitur, the appeal to the emotions, the appeal to spite, the straw man, the tu quoche, putting words in my mouth, false analogy, conditional fallacy (Amanda didn't take the lamp into Mez' room, therefore it must have been Rudy!). Sheesh!

It would help me greatly if you identified each of the points made, and which apply to your comments. Otherwise, I am not sure that you know what any of these "logical fallacies" even mean.
 
It would help me greatly if you identified each of the points made, and which apply to your comments. Otherwise, I am not sure that you know what any of these "logical fallacies" even mean.

The track record is abysmal at this juncture, this much is certain.
 
Sadly, this wiki is filled with false information. Anyone can create a website in the wiki format. That doesn't mean the information on it has even a passing relationship with the truth.

EdwardMcCall's wiki includes such gems as this - a criticism of the Conti-Vecchiotti report, specifically how McCall believes C&V got it wrong with regards to Sample 165B

In part he claimed that Maresca once wondered out loud if C&V were being paid by the Sollecitos. Apparently such "wondering out loud" by the most biased of any of the lawyers now constitutes "proof".

So approach the Edward McCall, fake-wiki at your peril.
 
Let's start with the one sided shoe prints and the half a footprint on the bathmat.

Explain how this occurred without a clean up.

Is that it? I said "in detail". No lamp? But never mind.

Here's an idea. Why don't you try to falsify your own thesis. Can you come up with a plausible reason or reasons, other than "cleaning", to explain the incompleteness? Or, alternatively, explain why the reasons, which I'm sure you can work out, that others would put forward as plausible, are not, in fact, plausible.

For your thesis to prevail, remember, there can be no other plausible explanation other than cleaning. This is part of the scientific method. It's rigorous. You must try to prove yourself wrong in order to prove yourself right.
 
Congratulations! I have never seen one poster use so many logical fallacies in one post. Namely, the non sequitur, the appeal to the emotions, the appeal to spite, the straw man, the tu quoche, putting words in my mouth, false analogy, conditional fallacy (Amanda didn't take the lamp into Mez' room, therefore it must have been Rudy!). Sheesh!

Are you suggesting that the only plausible explanation for the presence of the lamp in Kercher's room is that Amanda took it there for the purpose of illuminating her cleaning activity, the evidence for the existence of that cleaning having never been produced?

You say "lamp" and I say "cloths", "bucket" "water" "disposal" "transfer", to name but five.
 
Is that it? I said "in detail". No lamp? But never mind.

Here's an idea. Why don't you try to falsify your own thesis. Can you come up with a plausible reason or reasons, other than "cleaning", to explain the incompleteness? Or, alternatively, explain why the reasons, which I'm sure you can work out, that others would put forward as plausible, are not, in fact, plausible.

For your thesis to prevail, remember, there can be no other plausible explanation other than cleaning. This is part of the scientific method. It's rigorous. You must try to prove yourself wrong in order to prove yourself right.

Vixen is looking at all this from a suspect-centric point of view. It leads straight into a reversal of burden of proof.
 
Warning: Discussion of ECHR judgments in this post.

I was requested a few months ago to increase my credibility by finding counter-examples to Salduz v Turkey [GC] and similar case-law (of which there is a substantial body). Well, with the help of a new ECHR judgment, I can almost do that now. However, because of a legal concept called "precedent", the case I will discuss is not at all a counter-example, but follows the outline for judgment on such cases as laid out in Ibrahim et al. v the UK (which Chamber judgment itself will be reviewed by the ECHR Grand Chamber probably this year).

Here is the bottom line of the ECHR judgment in the case of Schmid-Laffer v. Switzerland (application no. 41269/08). She was accused of asking her partner (live-in boyfriend?) to kill her husband (they were in the process of divorcing), and the boyfriend did make such an attempt. She was convicted and claimed her Convention rights had been violated because she had been interrogated without a lawyer and without being warned of the rights to remain silent and that anything she said could be used against her.

However, the ECHR judged that the conviction was fair (not a violation of Article 6) because she was convicted on the basis of other evidence not derived from her interrogation, and that indeed in her complaint to the ECHR, she did not identify the specific statements from the interrogation that had been used against her. Minutes of the interrogation had been recorded by the authorities, Ms. Schmid-Laffer apparently had not complained to the Swiss authorities about any unfairness regarding the interrogation in a timely way, and she was not arrested at the end of the interrogation. There apparently was no complaint of coercion or violation of Article 3 during the interrogation.

These ECHR findings distinguish the Schmid-Laffer v Switzerland case from Amanda Knox's application against Italy for her conviction for calunnia against Patrick Lumumba, as I understand that application from her Nov. 2013 blog post.

The ECHR is being consistent with the guidelines it established in Ibrahim et al. v the UK. The ECHR is stating that Ms. Schmid-Laffer's conviction was sound because it was based on evidence not derived from her improperly conducted interrogation. And her interrogation was not in violation of Article 3. I haven't studied these claims by the ECHR in part because of the language barrier, and of course, the information about the evidence in the ECHR is highly condensed. But I still feel confident that Amanda has a strong case that Italy violated her Convention rights. The calunnia conviction is entirely tied to statements she made during what she has stated was a coercive interrogation that violated Article 3 (prohibition of inhuman or degrading treatment).

Note that the ECHR defines incriminating statement broadly: The right for the accused to remain silent and not to contribute to incriminating himself can not reasonably be confined to confessions of wrongdoing or to remarks which are directly incriminating. There had been a claim by a poster months ago to the effect that only directly incriminating statements (for example, "I committed the crime") and not indirectly incriminating statements (for example, "I saw X committing the crime, and I didn't tell the police as soon as possible") were covered by Salduz v Turkey [GC]. The ECHR explicitly disagrees with that poster's (Machiavelli's) position.

The original judgment text is in French. Here are the ECHR findings, Google translated, with a little help from me.

Findings of the {ECHR} Court

36. The Court first recalls that, while the Convention provides in Article 6 the right to a fair hearing, it does not regulate on the admissibility of evidence as such, which is primarily a matter of domestic law . It must examine whether the procedure, including how evidence was obtained, was fair as a whole (Gäfgen v. Germany [GC], No. 22978/05, §§ 162-163, ECHR 2010).

37. The Court further recalls that the right to silence and the right not to incriminate oneself are generally recognized international standards which lie at the heart of the notion of fair trial (Saunders v. The United Kingdom, 17 December 1996, § 68, Reports 1996-VI, Allan v. the United Kingdom, No. 48539/99, § 44, ECHR 2002-IX, and Jalloh v. Germany [GC], No. 54810/00, § 100, ECHR 2006 -IX). The right for the accused to remain silent and not to contribute to incriminating himself can not reasonably be confined to confessions of wrongdoing or to remarks which are directly incriminating (Saunders, cited above, § 71). Just as his statements are likely to substantially affect the position of the accused (Chabelnik v. Ukraine, No. 16404/03, § 57, 19 February 2009), statements made when the accused is not informed of his rights to remain silent and not to incriminate himself are to be treated with extreme caution (Lutsenko v. Ukraine, No. 30663/04, § 51, 18 December 2008).

38. The Court also notes that the right not to contribute to incriminating himself and the right to remain silent are intended to protect the accused against improper compulsion by the authorities and thus to avoid miscarriages of justice and achieve the aims of Article 6. In examining whether a procedure has extinguished the very essence of the right not to contribute to incriminating a person, the Court must consider the nature and degree of the compulsion, the existence of relevant safeguards in the procedure and the use made of any material so obtained (Bykov v. Russia [GC], no 4378/02, § 92, 10 March 2009).

39. In the section on the admissibility of this complaint, the Court found that the questioning of 1 August 2001 was, as such, capable of adversely affecting the fairness of the criminal trial against the applicant subsequently conducted (paragraph 31 above). The Court concludes that, in the circumstances of this case, it was up to the police to inform the applicant of her right not to incriminate herself and to remain silent during questioning (Aleksandr Zaichenko v. Russia, No. 39660/02, § 52, 18 February 2010). On the other hand, the Court fully agrees with the domestic authorities that the interrogation was only one piece of evidence of minor importance (see, conversely, Aleksandr Zaichenko, cited above, § 58). It considers that the Federal Court has substantiated in detail and convincingly that the courts {?} and the appellant relied in particular on the testimony of MS, regarded as credible by the domestic authorities. The said statements were corroborated by the testimony of many others (see paragraph 21 above). In other words, the conviction was not made solely on the basis of information obtained during the interrogation of 1 August 2001 (see in this sense O'Halloran and Francis v. The United Kingdom [GC], 15809/02 and 25624/02 our, § 60, ECHR 2007-III). Moreover, the applicant, duly represented by a lawyer before the domestic courts and before the Court, does not specify exactly what statements made during the interrogation of 1 August 2001 have subsequently been used by the Swiss authorities for her conviction. It should also be noted, reading the minutes of that examination (see paragraph 10 above), that the applicant had not complained on that occasion and had been left at liberty at its conclusion.

40. In light of the foregoing, the Court concludes that the trial, seen in its entirety, was not unfair. Consequently, there has been no violation of Article 6 § 1.
 
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Are you suggesting that the only plausible explanation for the presence of the lamp in Kercher's room is that Amanda took it there for the purpose of illuminating her cleaning activity, the evidence for the existence of that cleaning having never been produced?

You say "lamp" and I say "cloths", "bucket" "water" "disposal" "transfer", to name but five.

Its also important to remember that the alleged cleaning must also include cleaning up DNA (not visible to the naked eye), fingerprints leaving only Rudy's (also impossible), and really tricky is cleaning up the footprints in wet blood, leaving behind only Rudy's footprints (and Rudy story is that he was the only person in the room with Meredith).

So the cleaning meme is pretty silly. By focusing on the supposed instruments of a 'cleaning', the hope is that the listener is so gullible as to overlook that the proposed cleaning is a scientific impossibility.

ALSO, Are any of our London based posters going to the event of June 18, at the law school, posted a few weeks earlier? (I don't have the link handy, but maybe someone else does). Last I heard, I think Kauffer was going, and possibly LJ? Would be funny if they streamed it and some notorious guilters showed up to share their theories. When did the professors first believe Amanda and Raf were innocent? And why haven't they spoken out sooner? So many questions...
 
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Warning: Discussion of ECHR judgments in this post.

I was requested a few months ago to increase my credibility by finding counter-examples to Salduz v Turkey [GC] and similar case-law (of which there is a substantial body). Well, with the help of a new ECHR judgment, I can almost do that now. However, because of a legal concept called "precedent", the case I will discuss is not at all a counter-example, but follows the outline for judgment on such cases as laid out in Ibrahim et al. v the UK (which Chamber judgment itself will be reviewed by the ECHR Grand Chamber probably this year).

Here is the bottom line of the ECHR judgment in the case of Schmid-Laffer v. Switzerland (application no. 41269/08). She was accused of asking her partner (live-in boyfriend?) to kill her husband (they were in the process of divorcing), and the boyfriend did make such an attempt. She was convicted and claimed her Convention rights had been violated because she had been interrogated without a lawyer and without being warned of the rights to remain silent and that anything she said could be used against her.

However, the ECHR judged that the conviction was fair (not a violation of Article 6) because she was convicted on the basis of other evidence not derived from her interrogation, and that indeed in her complaint to the ECHR, she did not identify the specific statements from the interrogation that had been used against her. Minutes of the interrogation had been recorded by the authorities, Ms. Schmid-Laffer apparently had not complained to the Swiss authorities about any unfairness regarding the interrogation in a timely way, and she was not arrested at the end of the interrogation. There apparently was no complaint of coercion or violation of Article 3 during the interrogation.

These ECHR findings distinguish the Schmid-Laffer v Switzerland case from Amanda Knox's application against Italy for her conviction for calunnia against Patrick Lumumba, as I understand that application from her Nov. 2013 blog post.

The ECHR is being consistent with the guidelines it established in Ibrahim et al. v the UK. The ECHR is stating that Ms. Schmid-Laffer's conviction was sound because it was based on evidence not derived from her improperly conducted interrogation. And her interrogation was not in violation of Article 3. I haven't studied these claims by the ECHR in part because of the language barrier, and of course, the information about the evidence in the ECHR is highly condensed. But I still feel confident that Amanda has a strong case that Italy violated her Convention rights. The calunnia conviction is entirely tied to statements she made during what she has stated was a coercive interrogation that violated Article 3 (prohibition of inhuman or degrading treatment).

Note that the ECHR defines incriminating statement broadly: The right for the accused to remain silent and not to contribute to incriminating himself can not reasonably be confined to confessions of wrongdoing or to remarks which are directly incriminating. There had been a claim by a poster months ago to the effect that only directly incriminating statements (for example, "I committed the crime") and not indirectly incriminating statements (for example, "I saw X committing the crime, and I didn't tell the police as soon as possible") were covered by Salduz v Turkey [GC]. The ECHR explicitly disagrees with that poster's (Machiavelli's) position.

The original judgment text is in French. Here are the ECHR findings, Google translated, with a little help from me.

Personally, I feel Amanda would have an excellent ECHR case, especially after Italy's Supreme Ct reversed her conviction.

To be fair to Amanda, during that all-night interrogation (w/o a lawyer or proper translator), I feel it's clear that the police badgered Amanda into believing that Lumumba had killed Meredith, so Amanda wasn't knowingly falsely accusing Lumumba since she was just saying what the police insisted upon hearing, and at the time Amanda may consequently have believed Lumumba was guilty.

Clearly, the police told Amanda that they had proof Lumumba was at the cottage that night, so why would Amanda doubt the police in her exhausted & confused state?

Amanda also quickly recanted her statements once she had some rest and was away from undue police pressure.

My only concern about Amanda's ECHR case, is that I've heard she may not have timely filed her ECHR case?

I hope that's not the case?
 
Personally, I feel Amanda would have an excellent ECHR case, especially after Italy's Supreme Ct reversed her conviction.

To be fair to Amanda, during that all-night interrogation (w/o a lawyer or proper translator), I feel it's clear that the police badgered Amanda into believing that Lumumba had killed Meredith, so Amanda wasn't knowingly falsely accusing Lumumba since she was just saying what the police insisted upon hearing, and at the time Amanda may consequently have believed Lumumba was guilty.

Clearly, the police told Amanda that they had proof Lumumba was at the cottage that night, so why would Amanda doubt the police in her exhausted & confused state?

Amanda also quickly recanted her statements once she had some rest and was away from undue police pressure.

My only concern about Amanda's ECHR case, is that I've heard she may not have timely filed her ECHR case?

I hope that's not the case?

To my knowledge, the application was timely filed (within 6 months of the official notification by the CSC to the defendant's lawyers of the calunnia conviction).

The application appears to be in the queue to be evaluated by an ECHR Chamber. As of May 31, 2015, there are 8800 applications against Italy awaiting evaluation before a judicial formation (Chamber, Committee, Single Judge). I have no idea where Amanda's application is in that queue. The next public step would be communication of the application to Italy; that could happen tomorrow or a year from tomorrow.
 
Did you notice the type of bleach found?
Even from a pro guilt PoV the one thing we know is that the bleach found is bleach that was not used. I have never understood the timeline for bleach purchase. There was the murder, between 23.00 and 24.00. Then there was the staging. Then some cleaning? Then Knox has to get to Sollecito's for about 06.00. Then has to purchase bleach, presumably because the bleach at Sollecito's was not the right bleach, then go back to the flat, clean then dispose of the used bleach bottles, and blood stained cleaning cloths in day light with no-one noticing and never to be discovered. Or perhaps after the staging went back to Sollecito's picked up bleach from Sollecito's used this for cleaning, disposed of the cleaning materials, went back to Sollecito's, then the next day purchased new bleach to replace that used. Either way we do not know what bleach was used for the cleaning.
 
To my knowledge, the application was timely filed (within 6 months of the official notification by the CSC to the defendant's lawyers of the calunnia conviction).

The application appears to be in the queue to be evaluated by an ECHR Chamber. As of May 31, 2015, there are 8800 applications against Italy awaiting evaluation before a judicial formation (Chamber, Committee, Single Judge). I have no idea where Amanda's application is in that queue. The next public step would be communication of the application to Italy; that could happen tomorrow or a year from tomorrow.
A poll in forum community, dislosed posters, as to the likelihood of eventual success would be interesting.
 
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