Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[carbonjam72]

I think it was Spanish guys as well. He might have sold them. Or before leaving put them in a dumpster. The Spanish kids might have seen them some time before the murder.



Sounds a little like Fox News - people are saying...

There is absolutely nothing to confirm this wild speculation. Because Italy has under the table dealings in no way leads to saying the police were getting a cut. It is a total logical fault.



There is nothing to support these wild crazy conspiracy theories. Now you actually name the cops that were in the know. Was Giobbi in on it too? How about Mignini and the judges?

I can't believe that the whole PLE would frame Amanda to protect a few dirty cops. It would be very hard to keep the connections secret within the PLE.

If you're requiring definitive proof before a plausible theory can be discussed, it doesn't leave much room for debate.

I think this idea that a smaller subset of police we're getting a share of Rudy's heists for looking the other way, is worth considering. Graham's article suggested that police we're looking the other way as guede was a low level informant for them, which mignini appeared to concede might be true even though he thought it irrelevant.

You continue to misstate the positions I've made, I'm respectfully requesting you re read my post and your response above, especially your summary of arguments you mistakenly attribute to me, then proceed to argue against your own misstatements.

With All due respect, etc, etc...

 

[Grinder]

If you're requiring definitive proof before a plausible theory can be discussed, it doesn't leave much room for debate.

How about ANY proof.

I think this idea that a smaller subset of police we're getting a share of Rudy's heists for looking the other way, is worth considering. Graham's article suggested that police we're looking the other way as guede was a low level informant for them, which mignini appeared to concede might be true even though he thought it irrelevant.

How much did he give them for worthless computers? Please could you supply something on Mignini conceding he was an informant?

 

[Strozzi]

What case are u talking about?
The police framed raf because they said that the NUMBER of CIRCLES on Rafs shoes matched the blood print from Rudi blood soaked shoes.
Of course, Italian Police cannot count, so when someone counted the circles thay were different from rafs shoes and matched the box for rudys?
Poor poor Rudy, he is so unlucky to be wearing shoes that matched the one the murder was wearing, and had just bought them to prepare for the break in and murder!!!!!!You are making up the part about raf bleaching his shoes, can you provide a cite or source for that, rather than just your imagination.
And rafs sister was relentlessly harassed and drummed out of the police force for being rafs sister: there was a big article about how the police had to get rid of her to protect their in-bred buddy buddy CYA tradition.

Vixen, do you believe that the Nikes that Rudi was wearing in the cottage that night - the Nikes that matched the shoebox in his flat - the ones he said he threw away in a dumpster in Germany along with the clothes he wore at the cottage the night Mez died - do you believe that they were Rudi's own shoes?

I ask Vixen the above because I'm just trying to cover all the possibilities, given Vixen's propensity to deny the obvious and find the most extreme explanation to try to exonerate Rudi from being the sole perpetrator of the terrible crime that took the life of a wonderful young woman and led to so much suffering by her family. And also led to the 7-year-long misguided prosecution (persecution) and suffering of two other young people.

Last year a Dallas man was caught with meth in his pockets. His defense? He told the cops "these aren't my pants!" Perhaps the shoes Rudi wore that night weren't his shoes! . What say you, Vixen?

 

[Grinder]

You continue to misstate the positions I've made, I'm respectfully requesting you re read my post and your response above, especially your summary of arguments you mistakenly attribute to me, then proceed to argue against your own misstatements.

With All due respect, etc, etc...

Please be specific.

 

[Vixen]

Did the defense get to cross examine him?

No, Richard Owen is a highly trained top drawer journalist, who writes accurately and objectively. In the UK we hold dear the freedom of the press. Unfortunately, Amanda's PR machine could not compromise the integrity of our best journalists.

 

[Grinder]

You continue to misstate the positions I've made, I'm respectfully requesting you re read my post and your response above, especially your summary of arguments you mistakenly attribute to me, then proceed to argue against your own misstatements.

With All due respect, etc, etc...

Please be specific.

 

[acbytesla]

Tesla are you ignoring the fact that I've never said he needed money? My scenario has and always had him being fronted the goods just like you are fronted goods. People stealing low value goods would front them.


1. I think some of what he said may be true, actually is true. Many here like the time he said things went down.

Don't you get Grinder? There is a huge difference between the irrelevant to Rudy detail about when the murder happened and the anonymous guy story. Rudy HAS to come up with an innocent story for being in the nursery. He can't say he broke in. That is one of the ways to understand that it is possibly a lie. The other is the story about the ubiquitous "anonymous" guy was responsible for the wrong doing. Don't you get it? The anonymous guy is 99.9 percent ALWAYS a lie. Cops will tell you they have heard a version of that story a thousand times.

5. I do believe this more than anything else. If you believe he stole 2000 then he had plenty of money to fence your way. He would also have paid the rent.

Hey, I don't know if Rudy stole the 2000 dollars. My guess is there is a 50 percent chance. Maybe more, maybe less. I also don't know if he was desperate for money or flush with cash. Rudy could have been a prolific burglar or an occasional one.

First of all he had a cell phone when caught in Milan. Since the objective of his avocation was not to leave an electronic trail. You have no idea how he communicated for biz, Didn't someone post here that he had two cell phones? Do you really think that he wouldn't conceal his electronic activity?
And yes people in the trade are very careful about leaving a trail. Why do you think Rudi is stupid?

OK, let's see if we can agree about a few things. Rudy did have a cell phone in Milan, but it was the one stolen from the law office. And according to the Spanish girls, he didn't give out his phone number. This is the biggest problem with the fence idea in my opinion. Sure, not giving out his number conceals any trails but it also makes it very difficult for legitimate buyers of his goods to reach him. And why wouldn't he give his number out to girls?
These clues tell me he can't afford to pay the phone bill. That's not a high priority for him.

Do I think Rudy is stupid? Are we grading on a curve? I think MOST people are stupid. Is he a moron? Probably not.

 

[RoseMontague]

Richard Owen, as a conscientious crime reporter for the TIMES dutifully sought out witnesses and asked police for information, which they gave him.

"I didn't do it. I wasn't there." ~ 10CC 'Good Morning, Judge'

"I didn't do it. I wasn't there." ~ Amanda Knox with Chris Cuomo.

You have a link to the article where he claims Raf washed his shoes in bleach immediately when he got home?

 

[acbytesla]

No, Richard Owen is a highly trained top drawer journalist, who writes accurately and objectively. In the UK we hold dear the freedom of the press. Unfortunately, Amanda's PR machine could not compromise the integrity of our best journalists.

Your insistence that Richard Owen is a credible source despite the FACT that his articles were NOT confirmed in court and actually were contradicted is laughable and says a lot about your total lack of intellectual integrity. It says you don't give a damn about the facts.

This behavior disgusts me.

 

[RoseMontague]

No, Richard Owen is a highly trained top drawer journalist, who writes accurately and objectively. In the UK we hold dear the freedom of the press. Unfortunately, Amanda's PR machine could not compromise the integrity of our best journalists.

If he claims Raf immediately washed his shoes in bleach when he got home then he is a two bit lying hack.

Again, give us a link to where he makes this claim or withdraw it.

 

[Wattson]

No, Richard Owen is a highly trained top drawer journalist, who writes accurately and objectively. In the UK we hold dear the freedom of the press. Unfortunately, Amanda's PR machine could not compromise the integrity of our best journalists.

Ha Ha Ha. This is completely asinine. We know it wasn't true because it was never entered into court. Mensa just called. They want their integrity back.

 

[Vixen]

Vixen, would you please explain what I highlighted above. Where have you seen this and is there any evidence that Raffaele soaked his Nikes in bleach on the night of Nov 1 or the morning of Nov 2?

25.11.2007. TIMES Richard Owen


Mr Sollecito’s lawyers also deny that the imprint of a Nike trainer found in blood on Ms Kercher’s floor is “compatible” with Mr Sollecito’s shoes, as police claim. However police say the soles of his trainers - which were cleaned with bleach after the murder - have a tiny defect in the pattern which is mirrored in the footprint.
---

19.12.2007

Police said that they had also found bloodstained tissues and a butter knife in the undergrowth. The knife was not the murder weapon because it had a rounded end and was not sharp enough to have caused the wounds in Ms Kercher’s neck, police said. The presumed murder weapon is a kitchen knife found in Mr Sollecito’s flat with Ms Knox’s and Ms Kercher’s DNA on it. Mr Sollecito’s lawyers have contested this theory and had asked for a search for “the real murder weapon” to be carried out in undergrowth around the cottage.
The new search also discovered a footprint belonging to Ms Knox on a postcard found on the floor of the room used by one of the Italian flatmates (absent at the time of the murder), where the window had been broken. Police suspect the window was smashed to simulate a break in. Ms Knox has sworn in testimony that she did not enter the room in question.
Reports said that the imprint of a Nike trainer found near Ms Kercher’s body and matching trainers worn by Mr Sollecito had deteriorated to the point where it was almost invisible, a month and a half after the murder. However, police said that they had detailed photographs of the imprint and full laboratory reports of tests conducted at the cottage after the crime. In the search yesterday they also found the bloodstained imprint of a tiny star matching a star on the sole of one of Mr Sollecito’s trainers.
Police also removed “bloodstained items of clothing” apparently overlooked in previous searches. Defence lawyers were not allowed to attend the search but instead watched it on closed-circuit television from a police van outside the cottage.
----
13.1.2008 John Follain SUNDAY TIMES
In mid-October, Knox started a relationship with the engineering student Sollecito, a urologist's son from southern Italy. In Knox's eyes, Sollecito must have had no trouble fitting the "weird" type she fancied. Sollecito described himself as "a worrier" and passionately collected both knives and unsharpened swords. "Since I was 13, I've always carried a knife in my pocket, to make marks on trees," he said in his testimony. His blog pictured him wrapped in lavatory paper and brandishing a meat cleaver.

-----

 

[Grinder]

Don't you get Grinder? There is a huge difference between the irrelevant to Rudy detail about when the murder happened and the anonymous guy story. Rudy HAS to come up with an innocent story for being in the nursery. He can't say he broke in. That is one of the ways to understand that it is possibly a lie. The other is the story about the ubiquitous "anonymous" guy was responsible for the wrong doing. Don't you get it? The anonymous guy is 99.9 percent ALWAYS a lie. Cops will tell you they have heard a version of that story a thousand times.

Tesla how did he get in the nursery? How did he find a place that had a faulty door? Do you think he just wandered around Milan pushing on doors until one opened? There was nothing innocent about his story of being let in or told how to get in. The owner states clearly there was no sign of break in. It is possible he knew the guy that pointing him to the nursery for a crash pad.

Once again, how did he find the nursery?

Hey, I don't know if Rudy stole the 2000 dollars. My guess is there is a 50 percent chance. Maybe more, maybe less. I also don't know if he was desperate for money or flush with cash. Rudy could have been a prolific burglar or an occasional one.

So he didn't need cash and had plenty to buy the worthless computers for his fencing business. I love it, with absolutely nothing to point to his stealing of 2000 Euros (not dollars) you say oh 50% chance. The PIP meme is that owed for his rent, had no way to get cash and went on a one man crime wave. How would he have known when the cash would be there?

OK, let's see if we can agree about a few things. Rudy did have a cell phone in Milan, but it was the one stolen from the law office. And according to the Spanish girls, he didn't give out his phone number. This is the biggest problem with the fence idea in my opinion. Sure, not giving out his number conceals any trails but it also makes it very difficult for legitimate buyers of his goods to reach him. And why wouldn't he give his number out to girls?
These clues tell me he can't afford to pay the phone bill. That's not a high priority for him.

You really just can't get beyond your own experience. Hello he doesn't sell to legitimate buyers. I don't know why he didn't give his number to the Spansih girls, in fact I don't know that to be true. Was it RW that had a cite for him having more than one phone. Besides you have him being a burglar AND a fence without a phone. Your logic isn't too good. He can be both a burglar and a fence without a phone but not just a fence.

The kind of fence that Rudi was doesn't resemble your boiler phone op. He would do his business one by one with people he met in bars or cafes or while dealing drugs.

Do I think Rudy is stupid? Are we grading on a curve? I think MOST people are stupid. Is he a moron? Probably not.

Too funny.

 

[RoseMontague]

Here is what PQ had to say about Richard Owen in a comment on 4/23/13...

Especially interesting that you talk about the Times. Two of the best reporters on the case, John Follain and Richard Owen, write for the Times and Sunday Times (owned by News Corp) and in early days, especially during trial, they were invaluable and we quoted them a lot.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Owen's error with respect to Guede's supposed visits to the cottaged

From a Richard Owen article published at 10:50 AM on 19 November 2007: "Till receipts found at the flat of Raffaele Sollecito, one of three people suspected of being involved in killing Meredith Kercher, show that he bought two bottles of bleach allegedly used to the clean the murder weapon at a time when he claimed to be asleep.

"The police are said to be closing in on a fourth suspect, whom they have identified as a drug-dealer from the Ivory Coast whose fingerprints were found on Ms Kercher's blood-soaked pillow. He lived near the cottage that Ms Kercher shared with Amanda Knox, and was a frequent visitor there." (highlighting mine)

IMO the fact that Mr. Owen got the number of Mr. Guede's visits to the women's flat badly wrong is reason to doubt that the other information he reported in this article is any more correct.

 

[RoseMontague]

deleted, duplicate

 

[Kauffer]

No, Richard Owen is a highly trained top drawer journalist, who writes accurately and objectively. In the UK we hold dear the freedom of the press. Unfortunately, Amanda's PR machine could not compromise the integrity of our best journalists.

The problem is that Owen and other journalists were reporting information, which was untrue. Whether or not they made up some of these stories themselves or embellished them, they will have had sources within the officialdom of the investigation who were feeding them misinformation in order deliberately to create an unflattering portrait of Amanda and Raffaele.

Other stories, the washing machine, the mop and bucket etc, which didn't make the main stream press, were falsified simultaneously by pro guilt websites.

There is not much that's "accurate" about Owen's reports.

 

[davefoc]

No, Richard Owen is a highly trained top drawer journalist, who writes accurately and objectively. In the UK we hold dear the freedom of the press. Unfortunately, Amanda's PR machine could not compromise the integrity of our best journalists.

Suppose this is true, and in fact nobody participating in this thread has produce evidence to the contradict your assertion that Owen was a skilled, honest crime reporteer. What does it mean? It means that he develops relevant sources and reports on what they tell him.

Most of the people participating in this thread think he was lied to for the purposes of sensationalizing the crime and establishing the guilt of Sollecito and Knox.

So when you quote what Owen reported early on with regard to this case as evidence, you are not countering the argument that is being made by the people participating in this thread that believe AK/RS innocent. When what Owen claimed as damaging evidence didn't end up being used in a trial you are providing evidence that Owen was lied to or at least mislead by his informants.

If the washing machine was useful evidence against AK/RS it had the potential to provide irrefutable evidence of their guilt. So was evidence presented in court about the washing machine? Were Knox's or Sollecito's clothes found in the washing machine? Was blood residue found in the washing machine? Was the drain disassembled in an effort to find evidence of blood? The answers to all those questions appears to be no, so your view that Owen was right about the washing machine appears to be wrong, which means either he lied or was misinformed.

Similarly Owen's early reporting about the shoes was based on early police errors about a match in blood for Sollecito's shoes. Is it your view that once Owen said something it was impossible that it could turn out to be false. Is Owen some sort of supernatural reporter that is only capable of reporting true facts?

Can you find any current writing by Owen where he argues that AK/RS are guilty? Is it possible that Owen has less faith in his early reporting on this case than you do?

 

[acbytesla]

Tesla how did he get in the nursery? How did he find a place that had a faulty door? Do you think he just wandered around Milan pushing on doors until one opened? There was nothing innocent about his story of being let in or told how to get in. The owner states clearly there was no sign of break in. It is possible he knew the guy that pointing him to the nursery for a crash pad.

Once again, how did he find the nursery?

Yes in fact he could have done EXACTLY THAT. In fact, this is not uncommon. People often leave doors unlocked or not properly shut. Another possibility is that Rudy had a key that was stashed outside. He could have been just looking for a place to sleep, but what I don't buy is the anonymous guy who sold him lodging at a nursery. That screams lie

So he didn't need cash and had plenty to buy the worthless computers for his fencing business. I love it, with absolutely nothing to point to his stealing of 2000 Euros (not dollars) you say oh 50% chance. The PIP meme is that owed for his rent, had no way to get cash and went on a one man crime wave. How would he have known when the cash would be there?

I admit Grinder, there is ZERO proof that Rudy stole the 2000 Euros. Still, it is very common for burglars to hit the same places many times especially if they had made a big score there. As I said, it's not proof by any means, but it's a very good possibility.

You really just can't get beyond your own experience. Hello he doesn't sell to legitimate buyers. I don't know why he didn't give his number to the Spansih girls, in fact I don't know that to be true. Was it RW that had a cite for him having more than one phone. Besides you have him being a burglar AND a fence without a phone. Your logic isn't too good. He can be both a burglar and a fence without a phone but not just a fence.

The kind of fence that Rudi was doesn't resemble your boiler phone op. He would do his business one by one with people he met in bars or cafes or while dealing drugs.

if you want top dollar for anything, you don't want the customer to know it's hot. That's going to devalue it significantly. So if Rudy is at all interested in getting the most for his goods, he is going to want to sell it the average Joe just looking for a bargain. That means he has to market it. But hey if he wants to take big risks and get next to nothing, he can sell it to a limited circle. A fence is going to be looking to get ad much as he can without risking getting caught.

But you're right. I do see things through my own experiences. But don't we all?

And when it comes to buying and selling things, I don't think I'm an expert, I know I am. I have bought and sold equipment through just about any and every avenue you can imagine. Ebay, Craigslist, Amazon, etc. I called and received hundreds of calls daily. I'd get calls from both legitimate and illegitimate sources. I bought and sold millions of dollars of equipment every year. From single sticks of memory to multi million dollar routers and switches. I absolutely love negotiating a sale.

I'm not sure if you know it or not, but there is a monster market for black market, gray market and counterfeit electonics.
People are always scheming. I have worked with criminals Grinder. In a 10 year span 3 of my bosses were arrested for fraud, piracy and selling counterfeit equipment.

Did Rudy probably sell what he stole? Yes, but what I see in Rudy is a snot nose kid who needs experience. Not a fence.

 

[Dan O.]

...

If the washing machine was useful evidence against AK/RS it had the potential to provide irrefutable evidence of their guilt. So was evidence presented in court about the washing machine? Were Knox's or Sollecito's clothes found in the washing machine? Was blood residue found in the washing machine? Was the drain disassembled in an effort to find evidence of blood? The answers to all those questions appears to be no, so your view that Owen was right about the washing machine appears to be wrong, which means either he lied or was misinformed.

There is video of the police disassembling the drain filter on the washing machine. I believe this was November 14 or 16 when they revisited Raffaele's flat. No results were reported for that machine or the one at the cottage. Apparently nothing was found.