Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Desert Fox]

Under the Italian legal system persons are innocent until conviction confirmed by cassation. Therefore legally Knox and Sollecito are innocent. (Excluding Knox's conviction for callunia which is currently pending review by ECHR).

There is something similar in the US where if you are found guilty and it is overturned/ If while waiting for a new trial, you die, you are legally considered innocent.

 

[Antony]

Antony, ever thought of applying for the prosecutors job?

Another mystifying comment serving only to boost your inflated post count. Grinder made the point that Tremontino's (sp?) evidence wasn't sufficiently firm to convict Guede of the break-in, but having said that it adds to all the other evidence that the break-in and murder was committed by him alone.

The "multiple assailants" claim is not proved or even likely. Tremontino's evidence is of immensely more merit than Curatolo's.

 

[MichaelB]

Summary of Mignini’s notes on negative controls 8-Oct-2008

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-co...t-2008-Mignini-notes-on-negative-controls.pdf

On 4th Oct 2008 Stefanoni testifies that Potenza (Sollecito’s consultant) was present through all phases of the sampling of the knife.

Prof. Pascali had indicated that ìn Stefanoni’s report the negative controls had not been “isolated”.

Stefanoni says that negative controls have another purpose, which is to exclude contamination, and they are used in their practices.

For the bra clasp, Potenza was present only in the phase of photographing it.
Pascali had requested something about the amplitude of each peak, which Bongiorno had indicated was not present. Stefanoni says the defense experts didn’t complain about this during the lab testing.

Pascali complains that no negative controls were carried out on the fabric or the sample in areas that was not of interest to the machine or the flaking skin cells. He also complains that the negative controls were not provided. He asks for them and Stefanoni says she can provide them and she happens to have 2 with her. She didn’t normally bring them as she took it for granted [that they weren’t necessary, I suppose].

Pascali says that the negative controls were available for the reactive agents but not for the samples and Stefanoni responds that if by samples Pascali means traces on the samples collected then she didn’t have them.

Stefanoni provides into the court records via 2 CDs the information that was requested on 8th Oct 2008, which refer to the bra clasp and the knife.

 

[MichaelB]

Letter from Stefanoni to Micheli on 8th Oct 2008 from Stefanoni:

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-co...-notice-negative-controls-traces-36b-165b.pdf

In response to the request made by Sara Gino during the hearing of 4th Oct 2008, Stefanoni provides the CD-ROM to Micheli’s court containing:
- Data of Sample Info related to the 2 electrophoresis runs of the amplified sample DNA labeled 36/B (knife)
- Electropherograms of the second electrophoresis run.

 

[Planigale]

Richard Owen of the TIMES.

Hearsay.

You take as more valid, the publication in a Murdoch newspaper of the statements of an anonymous (probably paid) informant about whom we know nothing. The person talking to the journalist may not have been part of the investigation team. Just hearing tearoom gossip and then (literally) sexing it up so as to get more money from the journalist.

If the shoes were bleached why aren't they bleached? We have a picture, look at the soles they are stained, if bleached they would not be stained. look at the evidence yourself. (In any case the prints do not match these shoes).

 

[Kauffer]

Hearsay.

You take as more valid, the publication in a Murdoch newspaper of the statements of an anonymous (probably paid) informant about whom we know nothing. The person talking to the journalist may not have been part of the investigation team. Just hearing tearoom gossip and then (literally) sexing it up so as to get more money from the journalist.

If the shoes were bleached why aren't they bleached? We have a picture, look at the soles they are stained, if bleached they would not be stained. look at the evidence yourself. (In any case the prints do not match these shoes).

It's probably worse even than this. I don't think there is an Owen newspaper report about bleached shoes.

 

[Kauffer]

From wiki:
In geology, a boulder is a rock with grain size of usually no less than 30 centimetres (1 ft) diameter.

----

It says nothing about minimum weight.

On the anterior quadrant of the floor, beneath the window, 0.93 m from the right wall, 0.66 m from the anterior wall, and 2.31 m from the posterior wall, is a medium-sized paper bag (..), containing items of clothing and a rock measuring 20 cm x 15 cm x 15 cm approximately; a second fragment of stone, of smaller dimensions, rests on the floor, outside of the bag, near the rock (..)."

...which would be less than 8 inches x 6 inches x 6 inches, or in other words, the smallest boulder in the world.

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/The_Micheli_Sentencing_Report_(English)

 

[anglolawyer]

A stone is a pebble. Have you seen the size of the theatrical break-in tool? As large as a man's head.

No it isn't.

 

[Agatha]

This thread is once again generating a large number of reports, and some participants seem to be losing sight of the ISF rules in their eagerness to make their points.

Will you all kindly remember to be civil and polite, and to refrain from personalising your arguments. Do not accuse other members of trolling or sock-puppetry, even obliquely.

Please take this mod-box as fair warning that this thread is very close to being returned to moderated status should the rule breaches continue. To be clear, this is not the preferred outcome for the mod team.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Agatha

 

[Antony]

Scraped off layers of live skin, possibly down to the capillaries to draw blood. Skin contains moisture and under a murder victim's fingernails, there is likely to be copious amounts of it.

That none were found under Mez' nails further indicates she was forcibly restrained whilst A N Other butchered her.

Either that, or her lone attacker held a knife to her throat, so that she was under his control. She went passive in the (tragically vain) hope that her life would be spared if she didn't struggle.

All of this is trivial deductive reasoning. Those who misrepresent the lack of a struggle to indicate multiple attackers, do so from a conclusion-driven agenda.

 

[MichaelB]

Here's more pics of Guede's apartment including one of **** mans toilet.

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove breach of rule 10

 

[anglolawyer]

The rock/stone/boulder/pebble/megalith weighed, by all accounts, about 9 pounds. Vixen says it was the size of a human head. How much does a human head weigh? It turns out it's not much more than that - 4.5 to 5 kilograms. And yet, it's not made of stone but rather less dense and massive material. Only an airhead (geddit?) would conclude the rock/stone/boulder thing was the size of a human head.

 

[Kauffer]

A stone is a pebble. Have you seen the size of the theatrical break-in tool? As large as a man's head.

Now you can correct yourself. It was less than 8 inches x 6 inches x 6 inches according to Micheli.

 

[Samson]

The rock/stone/boulder/pebble/megalith weighed, by all accounts, about 9 pounds. Vixen says it was the size of a human head. How much does a human head weigh? It turns out it's not much more than that - 4.5 to 5 kilograms. And yet, it's not made of stone but rather less dense and massive material. Only an airhead (geddit?) would conclude the rock/stone/boulder thing was the size of a human head.

Everyone should be aware the weight coincides with that of a female shot put. The launch velocity is 28 mph. At that speed, the glass shard will hardly, but just impale. All arguments for an interior action are null, because of this physical requirement.

 

[carbonjam72]

Here's more pics of Guede's apartment including one of **** mans toilet.

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove breach of rule 10

Not a big place. Doesn't seem like you could stash a lot of computers in there without it becoming noticeable.

If the reports of the spanish girls seeing computers is true, and I think it is because of Rudy telling them his story of working IT for Armani, then what happened to those computers?

Did police find them when they searched Rudy's apartment? If not, where did they go?

Someone else suggested some time ago that police got a share of the proceeds from Rudy's thefts? Given the predominantly cash nature of Italy's economy (reported by Preston), maybe thats not so easy to discount?

Being in cahoots with a burglar, who loses it and murders on a job, would also be a reason to deflect suspicion from him at the scene of his crime. And its likely the whole police force wouldn't be in on it, just a few cops who get a cut - maybe Napoleone, Zugarini, Ficarra?

I'm of the opinion that there were multiple agendas, all leading to a wrongful conviction, a smorgasboard of everything but honest, competent police work.

 

[Grinder]

Not a big place. Doesn't seem like you could stash a lot of computers in there without it becoming noticeable.

If the reports of the spanish girls seeing computers is true, and I think it is because of Rudy telling them his story of working IT for Armani, then what happened to those computers?

I think it was Spanish guys as well. He might have sold them. Or before leaving put them in a dumpster. The Spanish kids might have seen them some time before the murder.

Someone else suggested some time ago that police got a share of the proceeds from Rudy's thefts? Given the predominantly cash nature of Italy's economy (reported by Preston), maybe thats not so easy to discount?

Sounds a little like Fox News - people are saying...

There is absolutely nothing to confirm this wild speculation. Because Italy has under the table dealings in no way leads to saying the police were getting a cut. It is a total logical fault.

Being in cahoots with a burglar, who loses it and murders on a job, would also be a reason to deflect suspicion from him at the scene of his crime. And its likely the whole police force wouldn't be in on it, just a few cops who get a cut - maybe Napoleone, Zugarini, Ficarra?

I'm of the opinion that there were multiple agendas, all leading to a wrongful conviction, a smorgasboard of everything but honest, competent police work.

There is nothing to support these wild crazy conspiracy theories. Now you actually name the cops that were in the know. Was Giobbi in on it too? How about Mignini and the judges?

I can't believe that the whole PLE would frame Amanda to protect a few dirty cops. It would be very hard to keep the connections secret within the PLE.

 

[LondonJohn]

Wut. You know that you are as well right? You have exactly the same right as all those others you mention to schlepp all over the Schengen area unmolested by border control.

And I am a citizen, not a subject.

Indeed.

It's simply wrong to propose that gazillions of Africans, Asians etc have the same fundamental right to maraud around the Schengen zone as, for example, a UK citizen. The point is that all these people have to gain lawful entry into the Schengen zone in the first place - and after passing that hurdle, they do indeed have the same right of free passage within the Schengen Zone as everyone else. At every border between a Schengen country and a non-Schengen country, there are full border controls. All EU citizens (e.g. a UK citizen) are free to enter the Schengen zone since they have EU passports and thus have automatic right of passage across the EU.

If I flew from Nairobi to Frankfurt, I'd enter Germany automatically on account of my EU passport. From there, I could travel freely around the Schengen zone without even needing a passport. If a Kenyan national was on the same flight, however, (s)he would have to go through a rigorous immigration check before being allowed to enter Germany. If (s)he were ultimately granted entry to Germany, (s)he would also then be able to move freely around the Schengen zone without a passport.

So for Guede, the immigration controls that mattered were when he first entered the EU (and then when he first entered the Schengen Zone within the EU - which probably both happened concurrently with Guede since he almost certainly entered the EU via Italy, which is also in the Schengen Zone). Once he'd passed the tests to get into the EU and the Schengen Zone, then (and only then) did he have the right of free passage between all the Schengen Zone countries.

 

[Dan O.]

There is something similar in the US where if you are found guilty and it is overturned/ If while waiting for a new trial, you die, you are legally considered innocent.

In the Ken Lay case, he was found guilty, not overturned but awaiting appeal at the time of his supposed death. Because his guilt had not been confirmed, the SEC case was dropped and his family got to keep the money effectively stollen from investors.

For the rest of us, if Meredith Kercher for instance had robbed Quaintville's Conad store and given the money to her english friends the night before she was murdered, I don't think Mignini would be touting the belief that because she had not been tried and found guilty of the crime her friends can legally keep the money.

 

[davefoc]

In the Ken Lay case, he was found guilty, not overturned but awaiting appeal at the time of his supposed death. Because his guilt had not been confirmed, the SEC case was dropped and his family got to keep the money effectively stollen from investors.

For the rest of us, if Meredith Kercher for instance had robbed Quaintville's Conad store and given the money to her english friends the night before she was murdered, I don't think Mignini would be touting the belief that because she had not been tried and found guilty of the crime her friends can legally keep the money.

Lay's conviction was vacated for sure, but that didn't mean the government didn't have recourse to attempt to recover the money. I only found articles from roughly the time of the trial but at that time it was the government's intent to recover some of the money through civil proceedings. Lay's widow was fighting the government's attempts.

 

[Vixen]

Was he there?

Richard Owen, as a conscientious crime reporter for the TIMES dutifully sought out witnesses and asked police for information, which they gave him.

"I didn't do it. I wasn't there." ~ 10CC 'Good Morning, Judge'

"I didn't do it. I wasn't there." ~ Amanda Knox with Chris Cuomo.