Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Grinder]

I agreed with acbytesla and I don't have much to add. If you mean by fence somebody that occasionally buys something that he occasionally sells and the transactions involve stolen items then Guede might on occasion have done something that would mean that he functioned on occasion as a fence. If you mean that Guede was routinely making money by buying stolen items, (especially stolen electronic items) and selling them I doubt very much if Guede was a fence. I agree with acbytesla that would imply that Guede had some significant skills, knowledge and contacts of which there is little or no evidence. There is certainly more evidence that he was a thief.

Dave it takes little skill to sell lemonade, right? It takes little skill to sell pot, right? The skills involved with selling laptops and camera are similar. The fence at this level doesn't necessarily buy the goods but gets as a front or on credit. As Tesla has pointed out these items don't fly off the shelf and as I have tried to make clear the thief wants them out of his house, therefore he will front them as there aren't a lot of art fences that handle used laptops.

You seem to imagine some giant warehouse filled with loot. I imagine what the Spanish kids reported that he had a bunch of computers in his flat. He takes the goods and moves them. There is more evidence of fencing than burglary since there is no evidence of burglary unless you employ the three compatibles equal a match Italian system. He had stolen merch in Milan. He was caught trespassing there with no sign of a break in or burglary.

There is nothing else that is known. CT is worth no more than Curatolo and the Diaz story has no, zero, nunca keine corroboration.


[Davefoc commented that Grinder had an apparent ability to limit the effect of his confirmation biases more than most]
I meant it as a complement, ...mostly. You have both a very detailed knowledge of this case and an unwillingness to accept the consensus view even when it supports your general view point if you don't think the consensus view is correct. I don't know enough to decide whether what's going on is that you're just right or you're just over correcting what your biases will reward you for believing.[/QUOTE]

I HAVE NO BIASES!!!!!!

Look if you use the same line of thinking on both sides I believe my position is correct. I don't know for a fact if Rudi burgled or not but neither does anybody. He certainly has stolen property in his possession.

CT wouldn't be credible if his belief went against the kids.

Nina's Diaz story would be hand waved away if it went against the kids.

The nursery would be merely a lark if either of the kids had been caught doing it.

 

[RoseMontague]

Not to my knowledge. The Spanish girls said he he had many computers but no Internet. They thought that was strange. I have no doubt that Rudy sold a few laptops that he stole. But I don't see him as a buyer of computers. And there isn't a shred of evidence that would lead someone to that conclusion.

But somehow according to Grinder, I'm the one who's clueless.

If he had a bunch of computers and laptops that were not being used why would he buy another one, especially considering his money situation? We do know he had a computer presence at one time and even posted some pictures. Was it a myspace page? Does anyone recall the last time he posted to it? I would tend to agree that it is very unlikely that he bought the stolen laptop.

 

[Dan O.]

[/HILITE]

I can't find this, Dan. In fact I could only find a brief quotation cited by Colleen Barry, which was reproduced in a number of publications.

Do you have the link? Thanks.

I think this is the page I was reading from: http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/a...s-highest-court-guilty-verdict-appeal-n329721

I see now that the McLaughlin quote was only the one sentence and not the following section I was associating with him.

 

[RoseMontague]

Did the defense get to cross examine him?

That would be a no. I wonder what this Owen fellow's opinion of the case is now and I am curious how he views his reporting of it. Should he have been so eager to take every thing he was told by the cops as fact, without question? Would he approach things differently if a case similar to this happens again? Or does the "according to police sources" give him a clear conscious?

 

[davefoc]

That would be a no. I wonder what this Owen fellow's opinion of the case is now and I am curious how he views his reporting of it. Should he have been so eager to take every thing he was told by the cops as fact, without question? Would he approach things differently if a case similar to this happens again? Or does the "according to police sources" give him a clear conscious?

Those are interesting questions that I started to speculate about in this post. Eventually I decided I didn't have anything of interest to say about it and erased the part of this post on that.

But on a slightly different topic I looked around for a source of the Sollecito soaked his shoes in bleach story and I didn't find it. Did Owen really write that?

 

[Desert Fox]

Those are interesting questions that I started to speculate about in this post. Eventually I decided I didn't have anything of interest to say about it and erased the part of this post on that.

But on a slightly different topic I looked around for a source of the Sollecito soaked his shoes in bleach story and I didn't find it. Did Owen really write that?

Did a Google search myself and nothing on the first page

 

[acbytesla]

Dave it takes little skill to sell lemonade, right? It takes little skill to sell pot, right? The skills involved with selling laptops and camera are similar. The fence at this level doesn't necessarily buy the goods but gets as a front or on credit. As Tesla has pointed out these items don't fly off the shelf and as I have tried to make clear the thief wants them out of his house, therefore he will front them as there aren't a lot of art fences that handle used laptops.

You seem to imagine some giant warehouse filled with loot. I imagine what the Spanish kids reported that he had a bunch of computers in his flat. He takes the goods and moves them. There is more evidence of fencing than burglary since there is no evidence of burglary unless you employ the three compatibles equal a match Italian system. He had stolen merch in Milan. He was caught trespassing there with no sign of a break in or burglary.

There is nothing else that is known. CT is worth no more than Curatolo and the Diaz story has no, zero, nunca keine corroboration.


[Davefoc commented that Grinder had an apparent ability to limit the effect of his confirmation biases more than most]
I meant it as a complement, ...mostly. You have both a very detailed knowledge of this case and an unwillingness to accept the consensus view even when it supports your general view point if you don't think the consensus view is correct. I don't know enough to decide whether what's going on is that you're just right or you're just over correcting what your biases will reward you for believing.

I HAVE NO BIASES!!!!!!

Look if you use the same line of thinking on both sides I believe my position is correct. I don't know for a fact if Rudi burgled or not but neither does anybody. He certainly has stolen property in his possession.

CT wouldn't be credible if his belief went against the kids.

Nina's Diaz story would be hand waved away if it went against the kids.

The nursery would be merely a lark if either of the kids had been caught doing it.

Where's the lead and the logic that makes you think he's a fence? There is absolutely nothing that leads to that conclusion. How do you get from he had a few computers in his apartment to all of a sudden he's trafficking in stolen goods? What are Rudy's resources that makes him the money man among all of his burglar friends?

Oh I forgot. You believe Rudy"s bs stories. Rudy says he had a date with Meredith and you go, sure, it's possible. He made a date with her when Meredith's girlfriends weren't looking. Some stranger supposedly sold him the laptop and phone in Milan. Yea, sure, that happened. And some anonymous stranger let him into the nursery to sleep.

Rudy, the guy who has to actually has to stumble upon someone to meet up is the middleman for the criminal element in Perugia. Why doesn't his total lack of electronic communication clue you in?

 

[acbytesla]

If he had a bunch of computers and laptops that were not being used why would he buy another one, especially considering his money situation? We do know he had a computer presence at one time and even posted some pictures. Was it a myspace page? Does anyone recall the last time he posted to it? I would tend to agree that it is very unlikely that he bought the stolen laptop.

Instinct tells me that the criminal who tells of the anonymous guy who sold him the stolen equipment is lying. Or the criminal who tells the story about some anonymous guy who sells him lodging in a nursery is lying. Or when he tells the story about the anonymous guy who comes and kills his date is lying.

But hey, that's just me. m

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Hey Chris,

IIRC, Dr Gill said there were only about 4-5 cells of Raf's DNA found on the bra clasp? Or was it 4-5 cells for all the profiles found?

Anyway, my question is, how do you plant just 4-5 cells? Doesn't "planting" carry a high degree of risk of prosecution if it goes wrong for the planter?

Where as Stef seems to have perfected the LCN single run lab fraud which she used to find Meredtih's DNA purportedly from the knife.

Isn't Stef's using a consistent method in lab for generating false results between those two samples (bra and knife) by far the most likely scenario here?

Carbonjam72,

One could use a gloved hand to touch one item and then the next. I don't think that planting carries much risk, because one could always blame the existence of a stray profile on unintentional contamination. Strictly speaking, no one knows how much of Raf's DNA is on the clasp, because the quantitation was not done properly. However, I think it is likely to be more than 4-5 cells' worth. My working hypothesis is that it was 100-150 pg of DNA. I have to wonder whether Stefanoni's technique might be to do a bunch of runs, find the one that gives the results that the bosses want, and discard the rest without disclosing the results to the defense.

 

[Desert Fox]

Carbonjam72,

One could use a gloved hand to touch one item and then the next. I don't think that planting carries much risk, because one could always blame the existence of a stray profile on unintentional contamination. Strictly speaking, no one knows how much of Raf's DNA is on the clasp, because the quantitation was not done properly. However, I think it is likely to be more than 4-5 cells' worth. My working hypothesis is that it was 100-150 pg of DNA. I have to wonder whether Stefanoni's technique might be to do a bunch of runs, find the one that gives the results that the bosses want, and discard the rest without disclosing the results to the defense.

Meredeth's on the knife was in the 4 or 5 cell range, correct?

 

[Kauffer]

I think this is the page I was reading from: http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/a...s-highest-court-guilty-verdict-appeal-n329721

I see now that the McLaughlin quote was only the one sentence and not the following section I was associating with him.

Thanks Dan. I think he might prove an interesting guy. I'm looking forward to hearing him and maybe chatting to him if there's an opportunity.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

low template profile with respect to the knife

Meredeth's on the knife was in the 4 or 5 cell range, correct?

I believe so. Of course the DNA that gave rise to the profile might or might not have been actually on the knife.

 

[RoseMontague]

Those are interesting questions that I started to speculate about in this post. Eventually I decided I didn't have anything of interest to say about it and erased the part of this post on that.

But on a slightly different topic I looked around for a source of the Sollecito soaked his shoes in bleach story and I didn't find it. Did Owen really write that?

No idea. The last time Vixen gave us a link to one of his articles, it was behind a pay wall and I'm not buying.

 

[carbonjam72]

Carbonjam72,

One could use a gloved hand to touch one item and then the next. I don't think that planting carries much risk, because one could always blame the existence of a stray profile on unintentional contamination. Strictly speaking, no one knows how much of Raf's DNA is on the clasp, because the quantitation was not done properly. However, I think it is likely to be more than 4-5 cells' worth. My working hypothesis is that it was 100-150 pg of DNA. I have to wonder whether Stefanoni's technique might be to do a bunch of runs, find the one that gives the results that the bosses want, and discard the rest without disclosing the results to the defense.

Desert Fox: Meredeth's on the knife was in the 4 or 5 cell range, correct?

Think I might have mixed up the knife (alleged sample) and bra clasp as being at 4-5 cells from Dr Gill's interview as DF points out.

The highlited method you suggest - wouldn't that have to be how she did it?

How could she know which result would come up with such a low sample reading? Inducing contamination over a series of runs, then picking out the result that supports the desired finding, and concealing/destroying/suppressing everything else.

Wonder if a mathematician could help us out with how many additional samples would be statistically necessary to be confident of generating an acceptably fraudulent result?

 

[Strozzi]

The trainer prints were originally considered to be Raf's as they had a unique deformed star pattern on the heel, which matched the print on the floor. Massei bent over backwards for Raf's dad and upheld it was after all, Rudy's print because of the matching box in his room. The addidas print is completely different to Raf's Nike 2 Outbreaks (?). So what was Massei thinking, anyway?

Especially as Raf had immediately soaked his Nikes in bleach after the murder and police recorded witnessing a strong smell of bleach at his abode even five days later.
Did Italian cops try to frame Italian Raf, whose sister was a carabinieri policewoman - one of their own.

Please explain why and how police framed Raf.

Vixen, would you please explain what I highlighted above. Where have you seen this and is there any evidence that Raffaele soaked his Nikes in bleach on the night of Nov 1 or the morning of Nov 2?

 

[Grinder]

If he had a bunch of computers and laptops that were not being used why would he buy another one, especially considering his money situation? We do know he had a computer presence at one time and even posted some pictures. Was it a myspace page? Does anyone recall the last time he posted to it? I would tend to agree that it is very unlikely that he bought the stolen laptop.

I have never said, implied or in any way said he bought a laptop. I've suggested that it possible and therefore probable that he was the fence. Just like Tesla's biz, Rudi was given credit. Then when he lost the goods, the gang made him pay up and Koko drove him to where he fingered a target.

Anybody have a better explanation for Koko?

 

[Dan O.]

Vixen, would you please explain what I highlighted above. Where have you seen this and is there any evidence that Raffaele soaked his Nikes in bleach on the night of Nov 1 or the morning of Nov 2?

He must have. Can you think of anything else that would so alter the physical characteristics of the bottoms of those shoes such that the ring counts no longer matched?

 

[Grinder]

I HAVE NO BIASES!!!!!!


Where's the lead and the logic that makes you think he's a fence? There is absolutely nothing that leads to that conclusion. How do you get from he had a few computers in his apartment to all of a sudden he's trafficking in stolen goods? What are Rudy's resources that makes him the money man among all of his burglar friends?

Tesla are you ignoring the fact that I've never said he needed money? My scenario has and always had him being fronted the goods just like you are fronted goods. People stealing low value goods would front them.

Oh I forgot. 1. You believe Rudy"s bs stories. 2. Rudy says he had a date with Meredith and you go, sure, it's possible. 3. He made a date with her when Meredith's girlfriends weren't looking. 4. Some stranger supposedly sold him the laptop and phone in Milan. Yea, sure, that happened. 5. And some anonymous stranger let him into the nursery to sleep.

1. I think some of what he said may be true, actually is true. Many here like the time he said things went down.

2. The girls were most likely totally blitzed and had no idea. The police had that as a main idea at first. Could he have read the stories and made it up? Sure.

3. They could have been staring but they may have been blind drunk.

4. Never have I said I agreed. Straw man.

5. I do believe this more than anything else. If you believe he stole 2000 then he had plenty of money to fence your way. He would also have paid the rent.

Rudy, the guy who has to actually has to stumble upon someone to meet up is the middleman for the criminal element in Perugia. Why doesn't his total lack of electronic communication clue you in?

First of all he had a cell phone when caught in Milan. Since the objective of his avocation was not to leave an electronic trail. You have no idea how he communicated for biz, Didn't someone post here that he had two cell phones? Do you really think that he wouldn't conceal his electronic activity?

And yes people in the trade are very careful about leaving a trail. Why do you think Rudi is stupid?

 

[analemma]

The trainer prints were originally considered to be Raf's as they had a unique deformed star pattern on the heel, which matched the print on the floor. Massei bent over backwards for Raf's dad and upheld it was after all, Rudy's print because of the matching box in his room. The addidas print is completely different to Raf's Nike 2 Outbreaks (?). So what was Massei thinking, anyway?

Especially as Raf had immediately soaked his Nikes in bleach after the murder and police recorded witnessing a strong smell of bleach at his abode even five days later.

Did Italian cops try to frame Italian Raf, whose sister was a carabinieri policewoman - one of their own.

Please explain why and how police framed Raf.

What case are u talking about?
The police framed raf because they said that the NUMBER of CIRCLES on Rafs shoes matched the blood print from Rudi blood soaked shoes.
Of course, Italian Police cannot count, so when someone counted the circles thay were different from rafs shoes and matched the box for rudys?
Poor poor Rudy, he is so unlucky to be wearing shoes that matched the one the murder was wearing, and had just bought them to prepare for the break in and murder!!!!!!
You are making up the part about raf bleaching his shoes, can you provide a cite or source for that, rather than just your imagination.
And rafs sister was relentlessly harassed and drummed out of the police force for being rafs sister: there was a big article about how the police had to get rid of her to protect their in-bred buddy buddy CYA tradition.

 

[Planigale]

Acquitted:
Definition

At the end of a criminal trial, a finding by a judge or jury that a defendant is not guilty. An acquittal signifies that a prosecutor failed to prove his or her case beyond a reasonable doubt, not that a defendant is innocent. Thus, a person may be acquitted of a crime but found civilly liable in a civil case regarding that same crime, e.g. O.J. Simpson, because civil cases have a lower burden of proof than criminal cases.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/acquittal


Exoneration—A person has been exonerated if he or she was convicted of a crime and later was either: (1) declared to be factually innocent by a government official or agency with the authority to make that declaration; or (2) relieved of all the consequences of the criminal conviction by a government official or body with the authority to take that action. The official action may be: (i) a complete pardon by a governor or other competent authority, whether or not the pardon is designated as based on innocence; (ii) an acquittal of all charges factually related to the crime for which the person was originally convicted; or (iii) a dismissal of all charges related to the crime for which the person was originally convicted, by a court or by a prosecutor with the authority to enter that dismissal. The pardon, acquittal, or dismissal must have been the result, at least in part, of evidence of innocence that either (i) was not presented at the trial at which the person was convicted; or (ii) if the person pled guilty, was not known to the defendant, the defense attorney and the court at the time the plea was entered. The evidence of innocence need not be an explicit basis for the official action that exonerated the person.

https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Pages/glossary.aspx

As no new evidence was presented at the appeal, it is an acquittal, not an exoneration.

Under the Italian legal system persons are innocent until conviction confirmed by cassation. Therefore legally Knox and Sollecito are innocent. (Excluding Knox's conviction for callunia which is currently pending review by ECHR).