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Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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DNA on the blade

Vixen,

Amplifying the DNA is not the same thing as obtaining a reliable result. Amanda's DNA from 36i might have arisen from her DNA on the handle. It is known that DNA can transfer when an item is packaged and transported. IIRC one of the coauthors of this study is M Goray, who is doing some fine work in this field of research. In any case the fact that the Carabinieri said a low template sample had to amplified at least twice should have applied to the previous low template sample from the blade, which was amplified only once.

If Amanda arrived at the cottage at 8:30, then she must have sprinted back to Raf's place to open the door to Ms. Popovic, leaving her too tired to commit a murder. Case closed.

LM in the conversation upthread about the break-in could be Luca Maori.
 
It is a fact Rudy has dual Ivorian - Italian nationality.
"Nationality" is not citizenship. Italian "residency" which is certainly what Guede has is not necessarily the same as nationality. Italian citizenship requirements:

Italian citizenship is currently regulated by Law no. 91/1992, which, in contrast with previous laws, reassesses the importance of an individual’s intention in the acquisition or loss of citizenship and recognises the right to hold more than one citizenship simultaneously.

1. Italian citizenship is based upon the principal of jure sanguinis (blood right), meaning the child born of an Italian father or mother is also an Italian citizen.
2. Italian citizenship may be obtained by marriage to an Italian.
3. A non-EU citizen having legally resided in Italy for ten years may apply for Italian citizenship and a EU citizen after four years.

In short, obtaining Italian citizenship can bring significant benefits, for example:

the ability to work, reside and study in Italy and in the other 27 EU countries (the UK, Germany, Sweden and etc.) without the need for a Visa;
more possibilities to further career, as many jobs and other professional opportunities are offered first to EU citizens;
access to medical benefits, including free healthcare;
access to educational benefits, including potentially free high education;
access to financial investment rights available only to EU citizens;
easier to complete all necessary purchasing requirements for buying property in Italy;
ability to transfer the citizenship (Italian and EU) to all children under 18 years old automatically.

Depending on the applicant’s residency status, an application can be submitted either at a competent Italian consulate in the foreign country or at an authorised police office (Prefettura) in Italy. As the procedure is complex and time consuming, it is advised to consult an experienced Italian lawyer before submitting the application in order to accelerate the process and to avoid the rejection due the mistakes in formalities.

Source: http://www.giambronelaw.com/site/pr...medium=syndication&utm_campaign=View-Original

Rudy Guede would fall into category 3 as his parents and presumably his grandparents were from the Ivory Coast and he was born in the Ivory Coast. There is no indication that he had acquired Italian citizenship, for which he would have needed to apply.
 
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Early police investigations show a belief Amanda arrived at the cottage circa 8:30 closely followed by Rudy, who demanded she pay him money she owed him for drugs. This led to Amanda stealing or demanding with menace Mez' rent money.
This led to Mez losing her temper and subjected to a particularly sadistic attack.

There was a grainy Italian video released claiming to show Amanda or Mez closely followed into the cottage by Rudy, identified by the same quilted jacket he was captured in, in Germany.

So, on balance, it does strongly suggest Rudy came in through the front door.

The stealing money for drugs idea came much later - this was Nencini's concoction and it's different from what you postulate. The Italians moved up and down the gears when it came to motive. The early press reports reflected their strange deliberations. If you can find an early drugs and money motive idea, I'd be keen to read it.

You have the timing of the video images wrong. Guede, allegedly is seen twice and earlier than Kercher, placing Guede at the cottage before Kercher got home. The allegation that Amanda is seen on CCTV is a particularly stupid one. The "Amanda" figure is the wrong size and shape and is seen walking in the wrong direction at the wrong time.
 
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"Nationality" is not citizenship. Italian "residency" which is certainly what Guede has is not necessarily the same as nationality. Italian citizenship requirements:

Italian citizenship is currently regulated by Law no. 91/1992, which, in contrast with previous laws, reassesses the importance of an individual’s intention in the acquisition or loss of citizenship and recognises the right to hold more than one citizenship simultaneously.

1. Italian citizenship is based upon the principal of jure sanguinis (blood right), meaning the child born of an Italian father or mother is also an Italian citizen.
2. Italian citizenship may be obtained by marriage to an Italian.
3. A non-EU citizen having legally resided in Italy for ten years may apply for Italian citizenship and a EU citizen after four years.

In short, obtaining Italian citizenship can bring significant benefits, for example:

the ability to work, reside and study in Italy and in the other 27 EU countries (the UK, Germany, Sweden and etc.) without the need for a Visa;
more possibilities to further career, as many jobs and other professional opportunities are offered first to EU citizens;
access to medical benefits, including free healthcare;
access to educational benefits, including potentially free high education;
access to financial investment rights available only to EU citizens;
easier to complete all necessary purchasing requirements for buying property in Italy;
ability to transfer the citizenship (Italian and EU) to all children under 18 years old automatically.

Depending on the applicant’s residency status, an application can be submitted either at a competent Italian consulate in the foreign country or at an authorised police office (Prefettura) in Italy. As the procedure is complex and time consuming, it is advised to consult an experienced Italian lawyer before submitting the application in order to accelerate the process and to avoid the rejection due the mistakes in formalities.

Source: http://www.giambronelaw.com/site/pr...medium=syndication&utm_campaign=View-Original

Rudy Guede would fall into category 3 as his parents and presumably his grandparents were from the Ivory Coast and he was born in the Ivory Coast. There is no indication that he had acquired Italian citizenship, for which he would have needed to apply.

Yes, this is my understanding as well. I recall reading he may have applied but have seen no documentation of dual citizenship.
 
Vixen,

Amplifying the DNA is not the same thing as obtaining a reliable result. Amanda's DNA from 36i might have arisen from her DNA on the handle. It is known that DNA can transfer when an item is packaged and transported. IIRC one of the coauthors of this study is M Goray, who is doing some fine work in this field of research. In any case the fact that the Carabinieri said a low template sample had to amplified at least twice should have applied to the previous low template sample from the blade, which was amplified only once.

If Amanda arrived at the cottage at 8:30, then she must have sprinted back to Raf's place to open the door to Ms. Popovic, leaving her too tired to commit a murder. Case closed.

LM in the conversation upthread about the break-in could be Luca Maori.

The Barni-Berti approach to testing and reporting is sharply divergent from the Stefanoni approach. Pro guilt commentators should be able to draw relevant inferences from the fact.
 
It's a pity you are so invested in your position as not to realise the real value of the articles you are irrelevantly referring to. So, I will help you (again). What they show is the Italian police polluting the well by disseminating outright lies about bleach receipts, shoes cleaned with bleach etc. What you should be asking is why they were doing that and why no one in authority corrected them.

Once more, to save you the trouble, I have drafted your reply to this post.

Dear anglolawyer

Thank you once again for correcting me. I hope you will continue to favour me with your enlightening posts about this case.

Sincerely

Vixen

Seriously, Anglolawyer, do get a grip on reality. You are claiming with a straight face that Italian police set off to frame one of their own, the son of a respectable urologist, for a brutal murder, rather than look for "the real murderer/s".

Alternatively, could it be, Amanda and Raf having told police they were stoned on the night, and Amanda informing them Raf had told her he did cocaine and acid, and the fact they were at the scene of a crime, with the washing machine cycle just finished on a Bank Holiday morning, when they claimed they were going to Giobbi for the day, and "the bra was still at the murder victim's feet, not yet washed", the police somehow thought, "Hello, hello, hello? What have we got here?"
 
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Source: http://www.echr.coe.int/Pages/home.aspx?p=basictexts&c=

From the European Convention on Human Rights (by the Italian Constitution and Italy's founding membership of the Council of Europe by solemn treaty, the supreme human rights law of Italy)

ARTICLE 6
Right to a fair trial
1. In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of
any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fairand public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law. Judgment shall be
pronounced publicly but the press and public may be excluded
from all or part of the trial in the interests of morals, public order
or national security in a democratic society, where the interests
of juveniles or the protection of the private life of the parties so
require, or to the extent strictly necessary in the opinion of the
court in special circumstances where publicity would prejudice the
interests of justice.
2. Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law.
3. Everyone charged with a criminal offence has the following
minimum rights:
(a) to be informed promptly, in a language which he
understands and in detail, of the nature and cause of the
accusation against him;
(b) to have adequate time and facilities for the preparation of his defence;(c) to defend himself in person or through legal assistance of his own choosing or, if he has not sufficient means to pay for legal assistance, to be given it free when the interests of justice so require;(d) to examine or have examined witnesses against him and to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses on his behalf under the same conditions as witnesses against him;(e) to have the free assistance of an interpreter if he cannot understand or speak the language used in court.
{Highlighting added.}

The highlighted clauses were some of the provisions that the intermediate courts - and the Chieffi CSC panel - did not respect in the Amanda Knox - Raffaele Sollecito case.

From the Italian Constitution
(Source: www.senato.it/documenti/repository/istituzione/..):

Art. 10
The Italian legal system conforms to the generally recognised principles of international law.The legal status of foreigners is regulated by law in conformity with
international provisions and treaties.
A foreigner who, in his home country, is denied the actual exercise of the
democratic freedoms guaranteed by the Italian constitution shall be entitled to
the right of asylum under the conditions established by law.
A foreigner may not be extradited for a political offence.

Art. 27
Criminal responsibility is personal.
A defendant shall be considered not guilty until a final sentence has been passed.Punishments may not be inhuman and shall aim at re-educating the convicted.
Death penalty is prohibited (1).

Art. 111
Jurisdiction is implemented through due process regulated by law.All court trials are conducted with adversary proceedings and the parties are entitled to equal conditions before an impartial judge in third party position. The law provides for the reasonable duration of trials.
In criminal law trials, the law provides that the alleged offender shall be promptly informed confidentially of the nature and reasons for the charges that are brought and shall have adequate time and conditions to prepare a defence. The defendant shall have the right to cross-examine or to have cross-examined before a judge the persons making accusations and to summon and examine persons for the defence in the same conditions as the prosecution, as well as the right to produce all other evidence in favour of the defence. The defendant is entitled to the assistance of an interpreter in the case that he or she does not speak or understand the language in which the court proceedings are conducted.In criminal law proceedings, the formation of evidence is based on the principle of adversary hearings. The guilt of the defendant cannot be established on the basis of statements by persons who, out of their own free choice, have always voluntarily avoided undergoing cross-examination by the defendant or the defence counsel.The law regulates the cases in which the formation of evidence does not
occur in an adversary proceeding with the consent of the defendant or
owing to reasons of ascertained objective impossibility or proven illicit
conduct.
All judicial decisions shall include a statement of reasons.
Appeals to the Court of Cassation in cases of violations of the law are
always allowed against sentences and against measures affecting personal
freedom pronounced by ordinary and special courts. This rule can only be
waived in cases of sentences by military tribunals in time of war.
Appeals to the Court of Cassation against decisions of the Council of State
and the Court of Accounts are permitted only for reasons of jurisdiction.

{Highlighting added.}

It is noteworthy that even after a final decision of the CSC (Marasca panel) in this case that Knox and Sollecito are innocent, there are anonymous internet posters who through falsehoods and distorted logic claim that Knox and Sollecito are guilty.

The highlighted sections above emphasize some of the provisions of the Italian Constitution that were violated in the intermediate trials and Chieffi CSC panel judgement of the Amanda Knox - Raffaele Sollecito case.
 
Vecchiotti and Conti were a couple of charlatans paid by the defense to write what the defense wanted them to write. In court, they sat with the Sollecitos.

The biggest scandal IMV was Hellmann egregiously releasing the two convicted killers for misguided reasons or personal sympathy and lack of Criminal Law experience. After that fiasco, that embarrassed the whole of Italy, and set in motion ppl cashing in on the pair's notoreity, the whole thing has been tainted ever since.

Hellman's report will go down in history as one of the greatest legal scandals, and the consequent money-making machine as one of the greatest hoaxes of this century, on a par with Watergate.

But
I am neutral.

:dl:
 
Italy is a civil law or roman law system. This means case law precedents do not exist. Case law precedents are a feature of common law systems derived from the English legal system. The investigational magistrate (who directs the investigation) and inquisitorial courts are a feature of civil law systems where the court endeavours to discover the truth. The adversarial court where the neutral court judges between the prosecution and defence is a feature of common law systems.

Italy has moved recently to a more hybrid system, with criminal courts supposedly adopting an adversarial approach. However a number of 'findings' in the motivation documents are conclusions different from the case presented by the prosecution, and to which the defence never had opportunity to respond. Effectively what the court did was decide the prosecution case was not proven and substituted its own case. This is a hang over of the inquisitorial system. Hellman adopted a stricter adversarial approach declaring that the prosecution case was unproven. The court of cassation seemed to argue Hellman failed to synthesise the evidence, appropriate for an inquisitorial court, but not the duty of a court judging an adversarial case where the prosecution has to synthesise the evidence. My guess is the motivation of the final court will refer to the adversarial nature of the case and that the responsibility for the prosecution not the court to present the case, for the defence to refute the prosecution, and for the court to judge between the two and not substitute its own reasoning.

Nice post, thanks.
 
Seriously, Anglolawyer, do get a grip on reality.
:) I'll try!

You are claiming with a straight face that Italian police set off to frame one of their own, the son of a respectable urologist, for a brutal murder, rather than look for "the real murderer/s".
I do not suggest the circulation of misleading stories to the press was part of an operation to frame two people known to be innocent. I don't know enough to make that claim. I do suggest these wantonly inaccurate reports reveal something about the Perugia police as an institution and suggest you consider whether you ever seen anything similar here (in the UK). The story about bleach receipts is a lie. So is the story about Raf's shoes being cleaned by bleach. Ask yourself: why would they be lying if they had such a great case? Why are they blabbing to the press at all for that matter?

Alternatively, could it be, Amanda and Raf having told police they were stoned on the night, and Amanda informing them Raf had told her he did cocaine and acid, and the fact they were at the scene of a crime, with the washing machine cycle just finished on a Bank Holiday morning, when they claimed they were going to Giobbi for the day, and "the bra was still at the murder victim's feet, not yet washed", the police somehow thought, "Hello, hello, hello? What have we got here?"
Could be, I guess. But it couldn't be that they thought - we have timed bleach receipts from Quinatvalles and shoes cleaned with bleach, could it?
 
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While I agree with this, it is amusing as always that you accept RG's self serving statements like " a stranger let me in" as opposed to not believing him when he says the murder took place around 9:30. As has been pointed out, Rudy admits being there so why lie about the time?

Thats the complex human limitations we all have, the so called judging of others.

We take parts of Rudys lies and toss some or keep some. Which is correct to ignore all of his comments because he lied once, or cherry pick his words which we deem the truth?

I still say the missing truth is mainly due to the prosecution/police ability to get Rudy to confess the truth. It wasnt the defense of Amanda and Raffaele or even Patrick to get Rudy to tell the truth....

Unfortunately, thats the reality, I dont hold even the sloppy, lying Perugia "pack" to be super-humans to get someone like Rudy to tell the truth.
But the Fast Track sure didnt help the Kerchers get the truth, and Maresca didnt seem to be on the same page as John kercher Sr. at times when it came to Rudy.

I predict this will end like the other mysteries, Rudy will never tell the truth.
He "beat the system" as they say.

Was he on a consensual date? or was he a rapist, murdering, burglar?
 
Seriously, Anglolawyer, do get a grip on reality. You are claiming with a straight face that Italian police set off to frame one of their own, the son of a respectable urologist, for a brutal murder, rather than look for "the real murderer/s".

Alternatively, could it be, Amanda and Raf having told police they were stoned on the night, and Amanda informing them Raf had told her he did cocaine and acid, and the fact they were at the scene of a crime, with the washing machine cycle just finished on a Bank Holiday morning, when they claimed they were going to Giobbi for the day, and "the bra was still at the murder victim's feet, not yet washed", the police somehow thought, "Hello, hello, hello? What have we got here?"
The Italian police DID frame the American Witch and her Italian Plaything.
They said to Raf "that COW, that WHORE, Amanda" when they beat the statements out of the two of them
I know that you are in the employ of the Italian police and must make the Italain Cops look just STUPID, rather than corrupt.
After the cops beat the statements out of these kids and proclaimed to the world that the "case was closed" it was too late for them to back out, which led to this seven year face saving string of lies from the entire Italian Justice system trying to cover for these idiots who think that college kids are the Mafia inspired to perform Satanic Rituals, murderous orgys, money stealing, or cut the uppetty british prude(with the wax job) down to size, or whatever preposterous set of lies and falsehood that they could concoct in their twisted brains to divert attention to the fact that the Italian Police screwed up and the entire Italian justice system spent seven years and millions of dollars attempting to cover for their stupid mistakes.
I wish you would stop polluting our forum with nonsense and go back to Perugia and write boot licking press releases for Mignini and the rest of your heroes at TJMK.
 
Grinder,

"As a technical consultant appointed by the lawyer. Luca Maori to the defense of
Raffaele Sollecito, I participated in the operations of technical advisory forensic
blood performed from the day 12.11.2007 by Dr. Patrizia Stefanoni and still under processing."

The other quote I provided came from the same document.

Here's the Google of that - As a technical consultant appointed dall'Avv.to Luca Maori for the defense of Raffaele Sollecito, I participated in the operations of technical advice regarding forensic hematology carried the day 12.11.2007 by Dr. Patrizia Stefanoni and still being processing.

I remember that Stef doing the test without the defense there was a big deal and the quotes above don't say he was there put that he "participated in the operations of technical advisory..." which to me doesn't mean he was there.

What did he say during the testing. Did he testify that she cranked the machine?

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong but the quote from Barbie expressed widespread discussion for years. The PGP kept saying the defense had a chance to go but didn't so tough luck (Mach).
 
Seriously, Anglolawyer, do get a grip on reality. You are claiming with a straight face that Italian police set off to frame one of their own, the son of a respectable urologist, for a brutal murder, rather than look for "the real murderer/s".

Alternatively, could it be, Amanda and Raf having told police they were stoned on the night, and Amanda informing them Raf had told her he did cocaine and acid, and the fact they were at the scene of a crime, with the washing machine cycle just finished on a Bank Holiday morning, when they claimed they were going to Giobbi for the day, and "the bra was still at the murder victim's feet, not yet washed", the police somehow thought, "Hello, hello, hello? What have we got here?"

Actually, it's "Gubbio". Giobbi occupies a different time and place in this sorry saga.

Amanda returning to the cottage to shower and change her clothes and the planned trip to Gubbio are not mutually exclusive possibilities.

What evidence are you able to cite with regard to the washing machine story?
 
Actually, it's "Gubbio". Giobbi occupies a different time and place in this sorry saga.

Amanda returning to the cottage to shower and change her clothes and the planned trip to Gubbio are not mutually exclusive possibilities.

What evidence are you able to cite with regard to the washing machine story?

Well I remember that it was reported that the machine was still warm a "fact" the PGP centered on as more proof of the cleanup until during court testimony it came out that the clothes were "humid" or damp but not warm. Stuarthome2007 the "reporter" for PMF was not received well on that site for telling them the machine wasn't warm and wasn't running when the PP arrived.
 
It strongly suggests you are not correct...
.


8.40pm: Amanda Knox is seen leaving Raffaele Sollecito's home by a Polish student

8.43pm: CCTV shows Knox walking towards the cottage that she lived in with Kercher

9pm: Kercher leaves Purton's house after finishing the DVD, saying she is tired and going home to bed


---
A CCTV camera at the parking area above the cottage recorded the image of a female figure in a light coloured skirt, said to be Ms Knox (who owned such a skirt, now being analysed), entering the driveway of the cottage at 8.43pm. If the image is that of Ms Knox, and if the timing of Ms Kercher’s movements is correct, Ms Knox would have been inside the cottage for about half an hour by the time Ms Kercher arrived. It is not yet clear whether the surveillance cameras captured the image of any other figures arriving at the cottage.

TIMES 12.11.2007
 
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.


8.40pm: Amanda Knox is seen leaving Raffaele Sollecito's home by a Polish student

8.43pm: CCTV shows Knox walking towards the cottage that she lived in with Kercher

9pm: Kercher leaves Purton's house after finishing the DVD, saying she is tired and going home to bed
All wrong. I won't waste your time or mine asking for citations.
 
Chris - this from ABC -

A DNA expert found fault with the prosecutor's evidence in the Amanda Knox trial in what has become an ongoing theme for the defense trying to free the 22-year-old American exchange student on trial for murdering her British roommate.

In testifying for Knox, expert Sarah Gino, who has appeared in court before, called out the prosecution for providing amplified DNA samples with the dates missing.

These dates are important, Gino said, "because they would tell us what samples were tested together on the same day, which might indicate if some of them could have been contaminated."
She also said dating the procedure for each sample was important to ensure that the amplification did not happen twice by mistake. She called the amplification of DNA the "key moment" in DNA analysis.
Gino was one of the last two witnesses during the seven-month trial, which has seen more than 100 witnesses for 42 hearings in what has become known in Italy as the "trial of the century." The case will now move onto the next phase of the trial.
​

It makes no sense to me that Gino would be needing the dates if Raf's expert was there and even more he should have witnessed the number of amplifications.

ETA - Sollecito's lawyer, Giulia Bongiorno, addressed the court for 20 minutes arguing that the defense was not provided with crucial details of Sollecito's DNA allegedly found on Kercher's bra hook until July 30. The rights of the defense were damaged, she said, when "documents regarding the quantity of biological material on the bra hook and documents regarding the procedure used to attain DNA results were not made available to the defense."

Carlo Dalla Vedova, one of the attorneys representing Knox, asked for the trial to be annulled and indictments against the defendants be thrown out, or at least for all of the testimony by the prosecution's DNA expert to be thrown out.
 
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