Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Vixen]

The Massei rationale for finding TOD is ludicrous. Massei actually did know about the digestion evidence, but disregarded it in favour of:

arbitrarily selecting the mid-way point in the 10-hour-plus range provided by the body temperature.

Vixen, over and over again you cite conclusions made by Massei (and even Nencini) as though they had any meaning after the latest ISC ruling. They are ANNULLED. When are you going to talk about the actual evidence?

As patholigist Lalli did not perform an autopsy until almost 24 hrs or more, after rigor mortis had set in, Massei having heard all expert witnesses had no choice but to set a median time, with a four hour corridor either side.

It is understandable the defense will push for a time which would exclude their clients. However, they did both turn off their phones 8:45pm and Raf keeps claiming Amanda was out till 1:00am - and he has never retracted this - then it doesn't really exempt them. Although Mez is known to have arrlved home circa 9:00pm, you can't be sure she didn't put on her coat again later, or that the fact she had it on meant she had just arrived.

 

[Antony]

Depends on the reason for the annulment.

Well, why don't we actually talk about the reasons for the annulments?

We can be sure it won't be based on sound legal reasoning.

That's your opinion - or perhaps we can say, wishful thinking. Massei's motivation was riddled with nonsense and arbitrariness, and Nencini's was even worse - coming as it did when the prosecution case had been completely destroyed by the Conti-Vecchiotti report.

And no, Hellmann's verdict wasn't "shredded" by the Chieffi ISC. The March 2013 ISC ruling was the biggest scandal of the whole saga.

 

[Vixen]

Do you mean like the way you just believe in whatever opinions Massei and Nencini had, on the basis that they are judges and it's hard to become a judge?

No, I read their reports for myself, and their reasoning was sound, bearing in mind the crime took place in private.

No two judges will come up with the same motive, where there is seemingly none, other than some kind of thrill seeking. If Mez was killed by Rudy to stop her naming him, it doesn't make sense he then left all his calling cards behind afterwards.

 

[Kauffer]

As patholigist Lalli did not perform an autopsy until almost 24 hrs or more, after rigor mortis had set in, Massei having heard all expert witnesses had no choice but to set a median time, with a four hour corridor either side.

It is understandable the defense will push for a time which would exclude their clients. However, they did both turn off their phones 8:45pm and Raf keeps claiming Amanda was out till 1:00am - and he has never retracted this - then it doesn't really exempt them. Although Mez is known to have arrlved home circa 9:00pm, you can't be sure she didn't put on her coat again later, or that the fact she had it on meant she had just arrived.

What does your first paragraph have to do with the duodenum evidence?

For this, will you please detail allof the occasions, with actual evidence to support your assertion that Raffaele "keeps claiming Amanda was out til 1:00am?

Do you think that Kercher telling Purton she was tired and wanted to go to bed has a bearing on matters? Do you have any evidence which might lead us to support a possible conclusion that Kercher went out after she arrived home shortly after 9:00pm?

 

[Antony]

This is a sceptics forum. ISTM ppl mindlessly believe all sorts of things without any critical thought. Calling it "science" doesn't make a person exempt from false premises.

This goes back to my comment about dinosaur fossils being created by the devil to mislead humanity, as an analogy to the idea of the "staged" break-in and the alleged "clean-up". Just to be clear, are you suggesting that dinosaur fossils are "staged", and that the theory of evolution is wrong?

 

[Kauffer]

No, I read their reports for myself, and their reasoning was sound, bearing in mind the crime took place in private.
No two judges will come up with the same motive, where there is seemingly none, other than some kind of thrill seeking. If Mez was killed by Rudy to stop her naming him, it doesn't make sense he then left all his calling cards behind afterwards.

Could you clarify what you mean here?
And here

It makes no sense to me.

 

[Vixen]

Well, why don't we actually talk about the reasons for the annulments?


That's your opinion - or perhaps we can say, wishful thinking. Massei's motivation was riddled with nonsense and arbitrariness, and Nencini's was even worse - coming as it did when the prosecution case had been completely destroyed by the Conti-Vecchiotti report.

And no, Hellmann's verdict wasn't "shredded" by the Chieffi ISC. The March 2013 ISC ruling was the biggest scandal of the whole saga.

Vecchiotti and Conti were a couple of charlatans paid by the defense to write what the defense wanted them to write. In court, they sat with the Sollecitos.

The biggest scandal IMV was Hellmann egregiously releasing the two convicted killers for misguided reasons or personal sympathy and lack of Criminal Law experience. After that fiasco, that embarrassed the whole of Italy, and set in motion ppl cashing in on the pair's notoreity, the whole thing has been tainted ever since.

Hellman's report will go down in history as one of the greatest legal scandals, and the consequent money-making machine as one of the greatest hoaxes of this century, on a par with Watergate.

 

[Vixen]

This goes back to my comment about dinosaur fossils being created by the devil to mislead humanity, as an analogy to the idea of the "staged" break-in and the alleged "clean-up". Just to be clear, are you suggesting that dinosaur fossils are "staged", and that the theory of evolution is wrong?

No, I said nothing of the sort. I was pointing out your erroneous assumption that scientific laws are infallible.

 

[Vixen]

What does your first paragraph have to do with the duodenum evidence?

For this, will you please detail allof the occasions, with actual evidence to support your assertion that Raffaele "keeps claiming Amanda was out til 1:00am?

Do you think that Kercher telling Purton she was tired and wanted to go to bed has a bearing on matters? Do you have any evidence which might lead us to support a possible conclusion that Kercher went out after she arrived home shortly after 9:00pm?

Do you have any evidence Mez was killed "within ten minutes of arriving home", other than the condition of her coat? Exactly. Pure conjecture.

Raf called a press conference ahead of the March 2015 hearing confirming he could not vouch for Amanda being home with him that evening. He has never said any different after his initial claim, which he told police was as a result of Amanda asking him to lie for her.

He refused to take the witness stand and be cross-examined.

 

[Kauffer]

Vecchiotti and Conti were a couple of charlatans paid by the defense to write what the defense wanted them to write. In court, they sat with the Sollecitos.

The biggest scandal IMV was Hellmann egregiously releasing the two convicted killers for misguided reasons or personal sympathy and lack of Criminal Law experience. After that fiasco, that embarrassed the whole of Italy, and set in motion ppl cashing in on the pair's notoreity, the whole thing has been tainted ever since.

Hellman's report will go down in history as one of the greatest legal scandals, and the consequent money-making machine as one of the greatest hoaxes of this century, on a par with Watergate.

Evidence please for this.
Are these Massei and Nencini's opinions like most of your others?

 

[Strozzi]

I think the palm print is how they confirmed Rudy's identity. BUt Bonassi (guy downstairs) mentioned I believe on Nov 3 (statement signed Nove 4?) that they had a visitor who left a turd in the toilet, and described Rudy. The police then took that info and through extensive interviews, came up with Guede's name.

So the gross incompetence of the police, is really just Mignini refusing to let go of his satanic orgy fantasy, which he desperately needed to be true at that particular moment. A good number of the police actually did their job.

Is there evidence that corroborates the story that Mignini initially suspected that Meredith had met a guy - probably on Holloween night at the disco - with whom she had a date the next night, Nov 1, when she brought him into her home and the date sexually assaulted and killed her? There are claims that this is what the police or prosecutor suggested to Mr. Kercher when they communicated with him about his daughter's death the night of Nov. 2. Mr. Kercher reputedly denied that his daughter would have picked up a guy and brought him into her home or admitted him to her bedroom, as she was not that kind of girl. If the above is basically correct, it would underscore that Mignini or police believed the first day that Meredith was killed by a man she had just met and brought home for a casual encounter. That she made a date with him, and that he would have staged a break-in to throw off suspicion.

 

[Grinder]

So yes, I prefer the opinion of a judge who has sat through the entire trial to someone who's merely studied a few secondhand images on a laptop and harbours weird conspiracy theories about a top Italian prosecutor, the entire Italian police force and the entire forensic department being bent and crooked, fiddling forensic results on some bizarre theory they wanted to victimise the American girl (of which there are literally thousands, in any year, there to study).

Are you suggesting Nencini and ISC rulings are bunk?

Who says or thinks the ENTIRE ILE is crooked?

Are you aware of the trouble Napoleoni's gang police colleagues got into?

 

[Kauffer]

Do you have any evidence Mez was killed "within ten minutes of arriving home", other than the condition of her coat? Exactly. Pure conjecture.

Raf called a press conference ahead of the March 2015 hearing confirming he could not vouch for Amanda being home with him that evening. He has never said any different after his initial claim, which he told police was as a result of Amanda asking him to lie for her.

He refused to take the witness stand and be cross-examined.

You said that Raffaele "keeps claiming Amanda was out til 1:00am"

I asked you to list all of the occasions he made this claim. So far, you haven't listed one.

What I said about TOD was that the evidence, which I cited "points very solidly towards" Kercher dying within ten minutes of her arrival home. The evidence, to remind you, comes from her empty duodenum reconciled with the time of her last meal, the evidence of Purton as to Kercher's fatigue and intentions, the fact that she did not place another call to her mother and that she was dressed in her outside clothes immediately before she was attacked - that's the evidence I cited.

Do you have any evidence? Alternatively, what conclusions about TOD do you come to using mine?

 

[carbonjam72]

Is there evidence that corroborates the story that Mignini initially suspected that Meredith had met a guy - probably on Holloween night at the disco - with whom she had a date the next night, Nov 1, when she brought him into her home and the date sexually assaulted and killed her? There are claims that this is what the police or prosecutor suggested to Mr. Kercher when they communicated with him about his daughter's death the night of Nov. 2. Mr. Kercher reputedly denied that his daughter would have picked up a guy and brought him into her home or admitted him to her bedroom, as she was not that kind of girl. If the above is basically correct, it would underscore that Mignini or police believed the first day that Meredith was killed by a man she had just met and brought home for a casual encounter. That she made a date with him, and that he would have staged a break-in to throw off suspicion.

I do remember hearing this story, I think it was from a policeman describing the investigation, and how they spent a great deal of time trying to identify all the people in masks that Meredith had her picture taken on Halloween, thinking one might be a suspect. Thats why I say it seems like there were at least two if not more lines of investigation going on in the early days. The police, Mignini, and maybe Giobbi all had their own ideas. Not sure where I've heard this, but this was my understanding too. Ultimately it was Mignini's party, so his rules.

 

[Grinder]

Is there evidence that corroborates the story that Mignini initially suspected that Meredith had met a guy - probably on Holloween night at the disco - with whom she had a date the next night, Nov 1, when she brought him into her home and the date sexually assaulted and killed her? There are claims that this is what the police or prosecutor suggested to Mr. Kercher when they communicated with him about his daughter's death the night of Nov. 2. Mr. Kercher reputedly denied that his daughter would have picked up a guy and brought him into her home or admitted him to her bedroom, as she was not that kind of girl. If the above is basically correct, it would underscore that Mignini or police believed the first day that Meredith was killed by a man she had just met and brought home for a casual encounter. That she made a date with him, and that he would have staged a break-in to throw off suspicion.

Very early reports said that is what the police suspected. Interesting that the broken window didn't preclude that at that early time. As I've reported here early reports also referred to Mez as a party girl, which could be connected to the sex game, whatever that is, theory (not in the scientific sense). While others completely dismiss the idea that Rudi either had a meetup planned or thought he did, to me the girls including Mez were most likely so drunk they wouldn't have remembered.

Mez was not an angel and might have invited Rudi or someone else to come over not necessarily for more than a drink. Another Lalli conclusion was that she had a full drink or two in her system. It's possible that just like Laura wanted Amanda to lie about pot the british girls decided there was no need to mention Mez's (for LJ) having a drink or two at pizza dinner.

British student made date with killer

 

[Strozzi]

They didn't release him until his alibi witness cane forward. But he should have been released when they found someone else's DNA in Kercher's vagina.

But then again, they shouldn't have arrested him in the first place after compelling Amanda's statements.

You do know they bugged his phone right?

Yes, the police bugged his phone. They did that in the days before the Nov 5 late night interrogation commenced. They thought Lumunba might have been involved in the murder, otherwise they would not have already started listening to his phone.

When the police brought Amanda into the interrogation room late at night on Nov 5 they were already looking for a Lumumba connection. Amanda didn't introduce him into the case; he was already suspected by the police of being involved and the police were monitoring him for possible involvement. Maybe they had found a negroid hair in Meredith's grasp or by her body. Or perhaps they were onto Lumumba because they were surveilling Amanda when she returned to class and they saw Lumumba walk up to her in the street outside of school and talk with her.

When the police misinterpreted Amanda's exchange of texts with Lumumba as meaning we meet later tonight they concluded he was the killer. In their unrecorded interrogation of Amanda her police interrogators informed her (said it outright or implied to her) that he, the person to whom she wrote "see you later" killed Meredith. They fed it to her, directly or implicitly.

 

[bagels]

Hellman's report will go down in history as one of the greatest legal scandals, and the consequent money-making machine as one of the greatest hoaxes of this century, on a par with Watergate.

When the first reputable legal scholar independent of the Italian court writes a thorough repudiation of the Hellmann report, be sure to link it here so we can read it.

 

[RoseMontague]

Hellman's report will go down in history as one of the greatest legal scandals, and the consequent money-making machine as one of the greatest hoaxes of this century, on a par with Watergate.

I think Mignini and his MOF nonsense has the legal scandal thing pretty much wrapped up.

 

[RoseMontague]

No, I read their reports for myself, and their reasoning was sound, bearing in mind the crime took place in private.

I read the reports as well and I think they were idiots. You do realize it's over, don't you? The final court ruled not guilty.

 

[acbytesla]

Apart from the computers, Raffaele was Amanda's alibi. What's the easiest way to eliminate an alibi when you can't admit you're wrong? Oh yes, just arrest him and charge him with the same crime.

That Swiss professor is a lucky individual.

Can you just imagine if they treated him like they did Raffaele? That they just rolled him into their bizarre theories? That they would have had 5 people accused of Meredith'so murder? Not enough that they have a single burgkar, they have 5 people accused of Meredith's murder.

Think this is even too crazy for even Italy? Think again. Remember the Monster of Florence. Double body swap and more than a dozen people arrested.