Should Illegal Immigrants get Welfare

[Giordano]

I'm amazed to watch liberals argue all over the field, you recognize that we can't have open borders, you also understand as a legal alien how unfair it is that others stole what you worked so hard to get. You even posted the answer to the problem.

First come up with a type of green card that can't be tampered with so we know who is actually here. Then heavily fine employers who hire illegal labor. Once the new system is in place, business and government can decide how much cheap labor we need, approve the numbers accordingly. Then when we know who is supposed to be here, the employers will join the new legal system, thereby, instituting self deportation.

By the way. I'm against so much cheap labor, it holds our wages down.

I guess "liberals" don't all think alike or have simple solutions to difficult problems. I plead guilty, myself. But I am probably further to the left than a "liberal" as you appear to define them.

But okay- so who do we require carry these green cards (presumably the absence of which is a sign of illegal immigration)? Everyone, including naturally born citizens, or only people who are dark skinned or look Asian? It looks to me like we actually would need a universal government ID card to make this work. And of course we will need a whole program of inspections of businesses (can the inspectors check out the food handling and safety conditions at the same time, or would that been too much government intervention)?

I hope that government and business don't decide that my job needs cheap labor. I presume you mean that I would get to offer my opinion through my government (which is sort of why we have a minimum wage now) but I see some problem with business having a say too, but not labor.

 

[logger]

What do we do with underage children of these illegals? Do you support the repeal of birthright citizenship?

Yes I do support it.

The underage children have citizenship now, their parents are supporting them so will obviously have to stay, I suppose they can get some type of residency. Maybe pay steep fine to get that residency.

 

[Shalamar]

Don't you also think if they are illegal and caught, they should be deported. At this point we are letting them go with a future court date in hand.

Guilty unless proven innocent? Dangerous trend there.

I would want them removed ASAP, if shown to be in the country illegally, but what happens in a 'round up', an actual citizen is deported?

 

[Giordano]

Don't you also think if they are illegal and caught, they should be deported. At this point we are letting them go with a future court date in hand.

Then who should decide if they are in fact illegal? I have a friend of Italian heritage (his grandparents came to the USA). He was stopped by police in Texas because he looked "Mexican" to them. Who gets to decide if he is Mexican or a USA citizen if we don't bother with court dates?

 

[Minoosh]

But illegals getting the benefit are certainly different than citizens in that free benefits will lure more freeloading illegals.

Do you actually know any of these people?

 

[logger]

I guess "liberals" don't all think alike or have simple solutions to difficult problems. I plead guilty, myself. But I am probably further to the left than a "liberal" as you appear to define them.

Agreed

But okay- so who do we require carry these green cards (presumably the absence of which is a sign of illegal immigration)? Everyone, including naturally born citizens, or only people who are dark skinned or look Asian? It looks to me like we actually would need a universal government ID card to make this work. And of course we will need a whole program of inspections of businesses (can the inspectors check out the food handling and safety conditions at the same time, or would that been too much government intervention)?

Business have foreign born people working now, the employees they have will have to be able to get the new card. With this new system, business would not take the chance of a heavy fine, thereby, only hiring people who are part of the system. Illegals will find it very hard to find a job. Its really very simple, the reason we are having such a difficult time is dems want the votes and repubs want the cheap labor.

 

[logger]

Then who should decide if they are in fact illegal? I have a friend of Italian heritage (his grandparents came to the USA). He was stopped by police in Texas because he looked "Mexican" to them. Who gets to decide if he is Mexican or a USA citizen if we don't bother with court dates?

They certainly need a court date, just not months away and they shouldn't be let go in the immediate. If a person gets caught up in the system who is an actual citizen, they should have the same documents I do.

 

[Shalamar]

They certainly need a court date, just not months away and they shouldn't be let go in the immediate. If a person gets caught up in the system who is an actual citizen, they should have the same documents I do.

However, people right now are not required to carry 'papers' at all times. Many lock them up in a safe place until needed.

That would have to change.

 

[Giordano]

So your final argument is "yeah well all I'm saying is its a complex issue".

OK I'll live with that

So lets start writing up the law to deport all the illegals!

Okay- how will we identify people as illegal? Universal identity cards for all citizens and legal immigrants that will need to be carried at all times is the only way I can imagine. And once we work this question out, then do we raid certain businesses, all businesses, certain housing, all housing, or just stop people on the street at random? And of course, who will judge if someone is legal; a court or a police officer? Where do we put the illegals once caught before their plane or bus leaves (it will be a lot of people)?

In fact, shouldn't we really start the whole process with your idea of a Constitutional amendment to declare that children of illegals born in the USA are not citizens? Otherwise, we will have a bunch of underage citizens in the USA after their parents are deported to other countries.

No, you are right- it is pretty simple. Simple to say; a lot harder to do.

 

[Minoosh]

And track them with biometrics. Since the illegals won't submit to such tracking, it's up to us real citizens to document our citizenship. ...

I actually don't have a problem with nationwide biometric ID. But then, I just want what George W. Bush wanted - provisional visas legalizing anyone without a felony record (as determined by a fingerprint check), after they make arrangements to plead guilty to a misdemeanor and pay a fine.

Why we prefer not knowing who is in the country mystifies me.

As for alien sex I'm convinced it's good for our gene pool.

Citizenship for all children born in the U.S. is non-negotiable.

 

[twinstead]

Yes I do support it.

The underage children have citizenship now, their parents are supporting them so will obviously have to stay, I suppose they can get some type of residency. Maybe pay steep fine to get that residency.

Since birthright citizenship is at least for now in effect, how would you handle the situation where illegal parents qualify for deportation, yet their children who are legal do not.

And if they can't afford a steep fine? Do you deport the entire family? Do you just deport the parents? To me that is the current issue. You want to eliminate birthright citizenship then yes I suppose you'd have to deport families en masse, but I don't like tearing families apart.

 

[Minoosh]

Its much cheaper to deport them than pay for all the free benefits that they come with

Evidence?

 

[twinstead]

Maybe investing at least a little money in the countries where these people come from to improve their quality of life, the stronger their economy the less likely they will need to run for the border. Maybe that investment will pay off in the long run by not having to pay so much to deal with illegals

 

[logger]

but I don't like tearing families apart.

No one does, but they did break the law. If you want to be a country of laws because laws are the opposite of chaos, some are going to be deported. Remember they stole their place in line, there has to be some type of penalty, correct?

 

[Giordano]

They certainly need a court date, just not months away and they shouldn't be let go in the immediate. If a person gets caught up in the system who is an actual citizen, they should have the same documents I do.

I assume that you are a citizen. Do you carry proof of this all the time on your person? Or would you be willing to be locked up until someone can find your papers and bring them to the prison. My friend did not have any papers with him because he was a tourist sat the time; should he have been required to have citizen papers on him at all times, or stay in jail until someone in New York City got the papers to him in Texas?

In fact, on thinking about it, I didn't have any papers even in my desk for many years that state that my grandparents came here legally and therefore I am a "true" citizen (as far as some here would like to mandate). I now have a passport: I hope that will do now, but I was not required to get one until I wanted to leave the country and return. My birth certificate would not be enough to establish citizenship if birth alone doesn't confer citizenship.

 

[Giordano]

No one does, but they did break the law. If you want to be a country of laws because laws are the opposite of chaos, some are going to be deported. Remember they stole their place in line, there has to be some type of penalty, correct?

Which line was that? Can people without special skills or proof of wealth enter the country legally now?

 

[logger]

Maybe investing at least a little money in the countries where these people come from to improve their quality of life, the stronger their economy the less likely they will need to run for the border. Maybe that investment will pay off in the long run by not having to pay so much to deal with illegals

That was what NAFTA was about, it has lifted these other countries up but we have lost jobs because of it. Our manufacturing base is suffering terribly.

 

[Giordano]

I actually don't have a problem with nationwide biometric ID. But then, I just want what George W. Bush wanted - provisional visas legalizing anyone without a felony record (as determined by a fingerprint check), after they make arrangements to plead guilty to a misdemeanor and pay a fine.

Why we prefer not knowing who is in the country mystifies me.

As for alien sex I'm convinced it's good for our gene pool.

Citizenship for all children born in the U.S. is non-negotiable.

I am not against universal ID cards either. As for alien sex, would you define "alien" in the context of this discussion one more time before I agree or not? I am not into tentacles.

 

[Minoosh]

Its really very simple, the reason we are having such a difficult time is dems want the votes and repubs want the cheap labor.

Illegal immigrants can vote?

Or do you mean the votes of Americans who see the anti-ILLEGAL-immigration crowd as a bunch of bitter bigots terrified that their privileged days are at an end?

Your analysis may be correct - the status quo might be the best we can do.

 

[logger]

Which line was that? Can people without special skills or proof of wealth enter the country legally now?

I'll address both of your posts, yes I can get my birth certificate in about 30 seconds.

When it comes to lines, yes they stepped in front of others to get where they are.

Finally, I don't think you can be satisfied, you'll always be worried about the one or two people who fall through the cracks.