Should Illegal Immigrants get Welfare

[Elf Grinder 3000]

Not useful post: You are wrong! I am right! Liberals suck! Ha ha!

Useful post: Hey this is complicated! How about this as an idea... We require children of illegal immigrants to not be able to invoke USA citizenship until they turn 18... (I am not saying that I agree with this proposal. I am only stating it as a possible conservative position that might be useful to begin the discussion. I see serious concerns, but at least it reflects one part of the real problem that can be debated).

Amend the constitution, such that children of illegals born here do not automatically get citizenship.

Make them pay a fine make them pay for all the services they use

 

[Loss Leader]

Amend the constitution, such that children of illegals born here do not automatically get citizenship.

Make them pay a fine make them pay for all the services they use

So, here are your choices. There might be some other possibilities, but this is what I think is realistic.

1. Groups of illegal 15 year-olds wandering the streets, incapable of earning significant money because they lack education.

2. The same 15 year-olds in schools - being counseled, watched, and taught - improving their chances of contributing positively to society.

It really doesn't matter economically if the child is a legal or illegal resident. Either way, he's going to make the world worse if he's uneducated.

Frankly, I think the best answer is to do away with school districts being funded just by their residents. Money should be pooled and distributed per capita (or some base plus per capita). That way, every child gets the exact same chance to succeed.

 

[marplots]

Amend the constitution, such that children of illegals born here do not automatically get citizenship.

Make them pay a fine make them pay for all the services they use

And track them with biometrics. Since the illegals won't submit to such tracking, it's up to us real citizens to document our citizenship. Something real Americans would be proud to do. Who doesn't want to let everyone know if they are a real, documented, true born and bred American?

Social security numbers aren't enough. Biometrics is the way to go. And plainly, a DNA check is the only real way to identify if some kid is illegal or not - it ties them directly to their parents, who are either valid citizens, proven to be so with proper ID, certificates and biometrics, or the DNA reveals the kid is the product of illegal alien sex. (Which, for the sake of decency, I will not describe in any detail. Suffice it to say that sexual perversions probably abound.)

We also need to introduce the notion of "half-citizen" for those of mixed parentage. Kids who are "halfies" are not full citizens, but also not completely illegal.

 

[Shalamar]

Not useful post: You are wrong! I am right! Liberals suck! Ha ha!

When that's all you have, well, of course you're right!

stoopid libruls don't walk in lockstep with WHAT I think should be right!

Useful post: Hey this is complicated! How about this as an idea... We require children of illegal immigrants to not be able to invoke USA citizenship until they turn 18... (I am not saying that I agree with this proposal. I am only stating it as a possible conservative position that might be useful to begin the discussion. I see serious concerns, but at least it reflects one part of the real problem that can be debated).

I am a legal permanent resident alien of the United States of America.
I'm not fond of illegals. Illegals are a symptom of greater problems. Part of the problem are the conditions that they have in their home countries. A greater part is that they can find better pay and conditions in the USA. People happily employ them. It doesn't matter if it is individuals, or companies, they find jobs, which allow them to make money.

It's also difficult to find them all, and ship them back. It's also damned expensive. Fine the companies. Fine the individuals. Make them pay to send the illegals back. If it's bad enough, there will be no jobs here for them. They will stop arriving. They will go elsewhere.

Of course, none of that matters to someone who thinks only 'stoopid libruls. ha ha.'.

 

[twinstead]

I came away with only one conclusion after reading the thread up to here. There are 2 kinds of people in a debate like this: people who only want to bash those who hold different viewpoints, and those who are interested in actually working together to come up with a real solution to the problem.

I've just spent the last 8 years seeing the former in our government. I'm hoping that the future will see more of the latter.

 

[Loss Leader]

It's also difficult to find them all, and ship them back. It's also damned expensive. Fine the companies. Fine the individuals. Make them pay to send the illegals back. If it's bad enough, there will be no jobs here for them. They will stop arriving. They will go elsewhere.

The unspoken question is whether it's in our economic interests to close ourselves to illegals at all. They are part of the huge grey-market of marginalized workers. They may receive no benefits, insurance, or even minimum wage. Heck, they may have no running water.

Their presence here lowers the price of all manner of goods and services. How much lower is it than if all those jobs paid appropriately? How much lower is it than if we had to lure mainstream workers into what used to be marginal work?

Simply adding up the costs of hosting the disenfranchised is economically useless. We must weigh the costs against the benefits. (And then we must weigh the economic benefits of treating people like dirt with the moral costs.)

 

[Elf Grinder 3000]

So, here are your choices. There might be some other possibilities, but this is what I think is realistic.

1. Groups of illegal 15 year-olds wandering the streets, incapable of earning significant money because they lack education.

2. The same 15 year-olds in schools - being counseled, watched, and taught - improving their chances of contributing positively to society.

It really doesn't matter economically if the child is a legal or illegal resident. Either way, he's going to make the world worse if he's uneducated.

Frankly, I think the best answer is to do away with school districts being funded just by their residents. Money should be pooled and distributed per capita (or some base plus per capita). That way, every child gets the exact same chance to succeed.

Deport the illegals

Problem solved

Liberals want amnesty and I disagree with this

 

[Shalamar]

The unspoken question is whether it's in our economic interests to close ourselves to illegals at all. They are part of the huge grey-market of marginalized workers. They may receive no benefits, insurance, or even minimum wage. Heck, they may have no running water.

Their presence here lowers the price of all manner of goods and services. How much lower is it than if all those jobs paid appropriately? How much lower is it than if we had to lure mainstream workers into what used to be marginal work?

Simply adding up the costs of hosting the disenfranchised is economically useless. We must weigh the costs against the benefits. (And then we must weigh the economic benefits of treating people like dirt with the moral costs.)

That is also a problem. There's too much money involved in illegals. Cheap labor. And those that back the companies, Conservatives and Liberals both, don't want it to end.

Which means that at election time, the politicians will talk big, claim how they're going to send them back... and then do nothing, because they don't want to lose their cheap gardener or servants go.

 

[Elf Grinder 3000]

When that's all you have, well, of course you're right!

stoopid libruls don't walk in lockstep with WHAT I think should be right!



I am a legal permanent resident alien of the United States of America.
I'm not fond of illegals. Illegals are a symptom of greater problems. Part of the problem are the conditions that they have in their home countries. A greater part is that they can find better pay and conditions in the USA. People happily employ them. It doesn't matter if it is individuals, or companies, they find jobs, which allow them to make money.

It's also difficult to find them all, and ship them back. It's also damned expensive. Fine the companies. Fine the individuals. Make them pay to send the illegals back. If it's bad enough, there will be no jobs here for them. They will stop arriving. They will go elsewhere.

Of course, none of that matters to someone who thinks only 'stoopid libruls. ha ha.'.

Its much cheaper to deport them than pay for all the free benefits that they come with

Statists are going to have a hard time showing that deportation isn't an efficient solution to the problem

 

[Shalamar]

Its much cheaper to deport them than pay for all the free benefits that they come with

Statists are going to have a hard time showing that deportation isn't an efficient solution to the problem

'Deport' is merely a useless talking point.

HOW do you find them? HOW do you pay for sending them back?

What do you do with any children that are underage, but yet are citizens?

Conservatives talk big. But they do nothing. They want the illegals to remain.

 

[Giordano]

Some people want to understand the problem before they propose a possible solution. For some people, that may not be a goal.

 

[twinstead]

'Deport' is merely a useless talking point.

HOW do you find them? HOW do you pay for sending them back?

What do you do with any children that are underage, but yet are citizens?

Conservatives talk big. But they do nothing. They want the illegals to remain.

Yup. These are the questions that people who somehow think "deport them" is all they need to say as a solution to the issue need to answer. "Deport them" means nothing; they might as well say "die their hair green".

We need solutions, not slogans.

 

[logger]

'Deport' is merely a useless talking point.

HOW do you find them? HOW do you pay for sending them back?

What do you do with any children that are underage, but yet are citizens?

Conservatives talk big. But they do nothing. They want the illegals to remain.

I'm amazed to watch liberals argue all over the field, you recognize that we can't have open borders, you also understand as a legal alien how unfair it is that others stole what you worked so hard to get. You even posted the answer to the problem.

First come up with a type of green card that can't be tampered with so we know who is actually here. Then heavily fine employers who hire illegal labor. Once the new system is in place, business and government can decide how much cheap labor we need, approve the numbers accordingly. Then when we know who is supposed to be here, the employers will join the new legal system, thereby, instituting self deportation.

By the way. I'm against so much cheap labor, it holds our wages down.

 

[Giordano]

Amend the constitution, such that children of illegals born here do not automatically get citizenship.

Make them pay a fine make them pay for all the services they use

That is certainly one approach, as i mentioned. Would you also deny citizenship to the children of their children? If so, I hope you have the citizenship papers from your relevant ancestors (however far back that might be), because some one will need to check. If your ancestors came on the Mayflower, then you are in real trouble; I don't think the Native Americans granted citizenship to immigrants.

All I am trying to do is to point out that this is a complex issue, and much more difficult to solve than suggested by the 20 sec sound bits of which the politicians and commentators are so fond. I suspect that the solution, if there is one, will be a compromise that includes features that make everyone a bit happy and a bit unhappy.

 

[Elf Grinder 3000]

'Deport' is merely a useless talking point.

HOW do you find them? HOW do you pay for sending them back?

What do you do with any children that are underage, but yet are citizens?

Conservatives talk big. But they do nothing. They want the illegals to remain.

Do I have to design a strategy for deportation on JREF?

Why am I required to design a strategy? This is another distratction!

If they don't have a social security number, and it can be demonstrated that they aren't a citizen then deport them

Its pretty simple

Again you have no argument

 

[Shalamar]

I'm amazed to watch liberals argue all over the field, you recognize that we can't have open borders, you also understand as a legal alien how unfair it is that others stole what you worked so hard to get. You even posted the answer to the problem.

First come up with a type of green card that can't be tampered with so we know who is actually here. Then heavily fine employers who hire illegal labor. Once the new system is in place, business and government can decide how much cheap labor we need, approve the numbers accordingly. Then when we know who is supposed to be here, the employers will join the new legal system, thereby, instituting self deportation.

By the way. I'm against so much cheap labor, it holds our wages down.

And in that, we pretty much agree.

And is a much better discussion than:

'Deport them! Liberals are sooo stupid!'

Part of the problem is that often the answer to the question is 'It's complicated'.

 

[Elf Grinder 3000]

That is certainly one approach, as i mentioned. Would you also deny citizenship to the children of their children? If so, I hope you have the citizenship papers from your relevant ancestors (however far back that might be), because some one will need to check. If your ancestors came on the Mayflower, then you are in real trouble; I don't think the Native Americans granted citizenship to immigrants.

All I am trying to do is to point out that this is a complex issue, and much more difficult to solve than suggested by the 20 sec sound bits of which the politicians and commentators are so fond. I suspect that the solution, if there is one, will be a compromise that includes features that make everyone a bit happy and a bit unhappy.

So your final argument is "yeah well all I'm saying is its a complex issue".

OK I'll live with that

So lets start writing up the law to deport all the illegals!

 

[twinstead]

I'm amazed to watch liberals argue all over the field, you recognize that we can't have open borders, you also understand as a legal alien how unfair it is that others stole what you worked so hard to get. You even posted the answer to the problem.

First come up with a type of green card that can't be tampered with so we know who is actually here. Then heavily fine employers who hire illegal labor. Once the new system is in place, business and government can decide how much cheap labor we need, approve the numbers accordingly. Then when we know who is supposed to be here, the employers will join the new legal system, thereby, instituting self deportation.

By the way. I'm against so much cheap labor, it holds our wages down.

What do we do with underage children of these illegals? Do you support the repeal of birthright citizenship?

 

[Shalamar]

Do I have to design a strategy for deportation on JREF?

Why am I required to design a strategy?

Because 'deport' is a meaningless talking point. If you were in charge, what would you do? And how?

This is another distratction!

SQUIRREL!

If they don't have a social security number, and it can be demonstrated that they aren't a citizen then deport them

How do you do this? How do you determine that they have a valid number, or none at all? How do you check?

Its pretty simple

It's actually VERY complicated.

Again you have no argument

It answers none of the questions. Many people are having a discussion. We have an argument. Myself, and others have posted potential solutions.

I strongly suggest you work on your reading comprehension, and stop with the insults.

 

[logger]

And in that, we pretty much agree.

And is a much better discussion than:

'Deport them! Liberals are sooo stupid!'

Part of the problem is that often the answer to the question is 'It's complicated'.

Don't you also think if they are illegal and caught, they should be deported. At this point we are letting them go with a future court date in hand.