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Should Illegal Immigrants get Welfare

Rather than only focus only on my own position (and I am not certain exactly what that is in this thread), I will first note that this is an extremely complex issue and that any proposal must deal with these complexities:

First, illegal immigrants are not eligible for food stamps, social security, or welfare. The children who receive food stamps or welfare are all American citizens because they were born in the USA. Their parents are permitted to manage this money for their American citizen children, but I can't see how the kids can be given the money or food stamps directly. I also don't see how we can deport illegal parents but leave their American citizen children in the USA.

This definition of USA citizen (born here) has been in place for 100s of years. If you wish to change it (e.g. must be born of legal immigrants) fine, but realize that this is a major change. And realize that one has to think about the chain going all the way back: are children born of parents born of illegal immigrants not citizens either? If you don't draw a line somewhere, then I hope that you have your appropriate ancestors' immigration papers handy for inspection when this change is approved. I don't have my grandparents' (they died many years ago) so if you do change the law without recognizing this, I will need to find some other country.

The proposed tax credit only extends to people who become legal, and then they can look back (when they may not have been legal) and receive any tax credits during up to 3 prior years. It is a tax credit for legal immigrants that can be extended for a limited length of time to their illegal years. I am neither supporting it or not (I find it a distraction and perhaps inappropriate), but please realize that the "headline" sometimes used to describe this situation is not completely accurate.

Value to society is very difficult to calculate. Illegal immigrants contribute to society through their work, as well as paying a wide variety of non-income taxes and fees. If the right wing is correct, then employers are hiring them to save money from hiring USA citizens, which actually creates value for employers and enables them to keep down the price of goods. So by this view, illegal immigrants are actually fulfilling the libertarian scheme of employers being able to hire employees as cheap as they can get them, and perhaps avoid all those pesky government regulations on minimal wages, etc.

Many people suggest that illegal immigrants should simply wait in line, apply for and enter the USA legally. Actually, most cannot. Unlike my grandparents' time, there is almost no way for people without specific sophisticated skills or pre-existing wealth to legally enter and work in the USA. My grandparents could not if they were alive and tried now.

I will also mention that limiting or deporting illegal immigrants will represent a great deal of government intervention and rules; okay, if that is what you want to do, but realize that we will probably need identity cards, random inspections of restaurant kitchens and farms, and that we are telling employers to not hire whoever they wish.

Finally, what I do know of my own feelings: I would hate to punish children by depriving them of food or an education because their parents chose to come to the USA illegally. In fact, an education is the most practical way of ensuring that these children will become productive members of USA society. I am also proud that the USA is consider by many people in other countries as a place in which they would prefer to live; we must be doing something right! My own grandparents came here for this very reason. And finally, I will state that the immigrants I have met, legal or (unknown status), are among the hardest working and dedicated people who I know; I would gladly trade certain USA citizens one to one for them. Yes, there are illegal citizens involved in other crimes and in certain street gangs, probably disproportionately. I don't have an easy solution. But there are clearly a lot of very wonderful illegal immigrants who contribute a great deal, and we need to find a way of dealing with the actual complex problems, and not rely on emotional calls from political partisans.
 
Well, if you want to switch over to that topic, fine. You're still wrong.

Public schools are funded mainly through property taxes. If your illegal immigrant owns property, he or she is paying the property tax. But - and this is important - if the illegal immigrant is renting, he/she is still paying property tax. It's figured into the rent set by the landlord.

So, once again, what injustice is occurring because the person is illegal rather than just a regular, non-wealthy citizen?


ETA: And what social good is delivered in the long-run by educating the children of illegal immigrants? Will they become more or less of an economic burden in adulthood if educated as children?

Loss Leader an illegal immigrant earning 15,000 a year does not pay 22,000 in property taxes.

The point is that the illegal immigrant is subsidized by the taxpayers.


You are wrong!
 
Under Obama's administration illegal immigrants will receive the earned income tax credit.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs...-receive-earned-income-tax-credit_841496.html

A mother making 15K a year with 2 kids gets about 5K from the government.

I say this is unfair to taxpayers. Liberals will say that all non white people are victims and that the rich are evil so its OK.

What do the luminaries at JREF say?

Add that to the 4 Trillion in spending Obama wants I guess

So do you have a final solution for this problem
 
So do you have a final solution for this problem

Get rid of the EITC

Enact a 9%/9%/9% flat tax on income/sales/corporate

Cut spending by 50%

Close the borders

Deport illegals but not before we fine them

Watch liberals weep
 
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Rather than only focus only on my own position (and I am not certain exactly what that is in this thread), I will first note that this is an extremely complex issue and that any proposal must deal with these complexities:

First, illegal immigrants are not eligible for food stamps, social security, or welfare. The children who receive food stamps or welfare are all American citizens because they were born in the USA. Their parents are permitted to manage this money for their American citizen children, but I can't see how the kids can be given the money or food stamps directly. I also don't see how we can deport illegal parents but leave their American citizen children in the USA.

This definition of USA citizen (born here) has been in place for 100s of years. If you wish to change it (e.g. must be born of legal immigrants) fine, but realize that this is a major change. And realize that one has to think about the chain going all the way back: are children born of parents born of illegal immigrants not citizens either? If you don't draw a line somewhere, then I hope that you have your appropriate ancestors' immigration papers handy for inspection when this change is approved. I don't have my grandparents' (they died many years ago) so if you do change the law without recognizing this, I will need to find some other country.

The proposed tax credit only extends to people who become legal, and then they can look back (when they may not have been legal) and receive any tax credits during up to 3 prior years. It is a tax credit for legal immigrants that can be extended for a limited length of time to their illegal years. I am neither supporting it or not (I find it a distraction and perhaps inappropriate), but please realize that the "headline" sometimes used to describe this situation is not completely accurate.

Value to society is very difficult to calculate. Illegal immigrants contribute to society through their work, as well as paying a wide variety of non-income taxes and fees. If the right wing is correct, then employers are hiring them to save money from hiring USA citizens, which actually creates value for employers and enables them to keep down the price of goods. So by this view, illegal immigrants are actually fulfilling the libertarian scheme of employers being able to hire employees as cheap as they can get them, and perhaps avoid all those pesky government regulations on minimal wages, etc.

Many people suggest that illegal immigrants should simply wait in line, apply for and enter the USA legally. Actually, most cannot. Unlike my grandparents' time, there is almost no way for people without specific sophisticated skills or pre-existing wealth to legally enter and work in the USA. My grandparents could not if they were alive and tried now.

I will also mention that limiting or deporting illegal immigrants will represent a great deal of government intervention and rules; okay, if that is what you want to do, but realize that we will probably need identity cards, random inspections of restaurant kitchens and farms, and that we are telling employers to not hire whoever they wish.

Finally, what I do know of my own feelings: I would hate to punish children by depriving them of food or an education because their parents chose to come to the USA illegally. In fact, an education is the most practical way of ensuring that these children will become productive members of USA society. I am also proud that the USA is consider by many people in other countries as a place in which they would prefer to live; we must be doing something right! My own grandparents came here for this very reason. And finally, I will state that the immigrants I have met, legal or (unknown status), are among the hardest working and dedicated people who I know; I would gladly trade certain USA citizens one to one for them. Yes, there are illegal citizens involved in other crimes and in certain street gangs, probably disproportionately. I don't have an easy solution. But there are clearly a lot of very wonderful illegal immigrants who contribute a great deal, and we need to find a way of dealing with the actual complex problems, and not rely on emotional calls from political partisans.

Thanks. So the situation is really nothing like that described in the OP.

Besides I thought conservatives whined most about illegal immigrants (come on EG, you can say Mexicans) who weren't actually working and not properly contributing to the economy.
 
Get rid of the EITC

Enact a 9%/9%/9% flat tax on income/sales/corporate

Cut spending by 50%

Close the borders

Deport illegals but not before we fine them

Watch liberals weep

You could add to that list. Require citizenship checks before any commercial transaction. We need a national ID card and a ubiquitous request from our fellows to: "Show me your papers."

Illegal aliens are largely invisible now. We need to expose them at every turn. That guy who sells you coffee in the morning? Probably from Guatemala. That chick in the cubical next to you - the one with the slight, but definite lilt in her voice - she could be undocumented. What about that kid who made friends with your kid? Didn't I hear him use 'zed' instead of 'zee'?

The Fatherland isn't going to protect itself here.
 
You could add to that list. Require citizenship checks before any commercial transaction. We need a national ID card and a ubiquitous request from our fellows to: "Show me your papers."

Illegal aliens are largely invisible now. We need to expose them at every turn. That guy who sells you coffee in the morning? Probably from Guatemala. That chick in the cubical next to you - the one with the slight, but definite lilt in her voice - she could be undocumented. What about that kid who made friends with your kid? Didn't I hear him use 'zed' instead of 'zee'?

The Fatherland isn't going to protect itself here.

Why don't you debate what I said rather than what I didn't say?

Pathetic liberal excuse making
 
Under Obama's administration illegal immigrants will receive the earned income tax credit.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs...-receive-earned-income-tax-credit_841496.html

A mother making 15K a year with 2 kids gets about 5K from the government.

I say this is unfair to taxpayers. Liberals will say that all non white people are victims and that the rich are evil so its OK.

What do the luminaries at JREF say?

Add that to the 4 Trillion in spending Obama wants I guess

Can you point which bit of this is actually welfare?
 
Why don't you debate what I said rather than what I didn't say?

Pathetic liberal excuse making

I'm not debating. I'm expressing an opinion. It's a good, strong opinion, worth adopting. At least, it is if someone isn't here illegally. Those who are here illegally would not agree with me as a matter of course. Neither would false patriots, pretending to have conservative values, when really, they don't have the courage of their convictions and are only using the issue as a way to bash a more liberal point of view.

I have no truck for someone unwilling to treat the disease instead of the symptoms. If we are going to solve this illegal immigration problem, we should look to history to see how it has been effectively managed, distasteful as that may be, for the alternative is to accept some shade of the status quo, to manage the symptoms and accept into our ranks people who I disapprove of.
 
You don't get a tax credit without filing an income-tax return and you can't do that without a Social Security number ... can you? So anyone working illegally is perforce filing under a fraudulent Social Security number, verdad?

It's trivial from a data perspective to demonstrate that a given SSN was either a) never issued or b) issued to two separate people. So I don't understand how, in practice, an illegal immigrant would be in any position to claim the credit. If someone can tell me how that works please do.

ETA: I think Giordano answered this question.

ETA2: The demographic issue, of needing more young people paying into the Social Security system, also is worth considering if we want to address this structural issue. There wouldn't automatically be more jobs for younger people, but temporary legal status might prevent some from being paid off the books.

ETA3: I have always favored issuance of what was called a "Z visa" in one bill. Get people on the books in exchange for a fine, fingerprinting, background check and misdemeanor record. They would have a limited period of time to earn long-term legal status.
 
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Loss Leader an illegal immigrant earning 15,000 a year does not pay 22,000 in property taxes.

The point is that the illegal immigrant is subsidized by the taxpayers.


How is that different from a legal citizen making $15,000 a year?
 
You don't get a tax credit without filing an income-tax return and you can't do that without a Social Security number ... can you? So anyone working illegally is perforce filing under a fraudulent Social Security number, verdad?

Yeah, I think they work under a false SSN, but can't file taxes to recover the withholding. I guess we could surmise they are paying more, not less taxes than they should.
 
Guess who pays for the kids public school education? Guess how much that cost

It's not a fee-for-service situation, though. People with no kids pay into the system. I'm not sure what this sort of fallacy is called, but the underlying premise seems to be that people who don't pay at least $11,000 in property taxes are freeloaders if they have a kid in school. Many, many young parents aren't paying that much. Public education is considered to be a public good. We can argue about eliminating any governmental involvement in education, but really, that's got nothing to do with the illegal immigrant issue.

ETA: Stated more succinctly by Loss Leader.
 
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Not true.
True.

Now that is not true. The administration will only reach those numbers because they are counting returns as removals and deportations which was not traditionally done by prior administrations.

It's funny how you call someone out for following Fox news immediately after linking to an Obama-fluffing trash site like Vox. I guess you could believe what they say but you would have to ignore what the Washington Post says, what the Los Angeles Times says, and what the President himself says.

Have you been following Fox instead of the news?
Have you been following Vox instead of the news?
 
I'm not debating. I'm expressing an opinion. It's a good, strong opinion, worth adopting. At least, it is if someone isn't here illegally. Those who are here illegally would not agree with me as a matter of course. Neither would false patriots, pretending to have conservative values, when really, they don't have the courage of their convictions and are only using the issue as a way to bash a more liberal point of view.

I have no truck for someone unwilling to treat the disease instead of the symptoms. If we are going to solve this illegal immigration problem, we should look to history to see how it has been effectively managed, distasteful as that may be, for the alternative is to accept some shade of the status quo, to manage the symptoms and accept into our ranks people who I disapprove of.

No its a non sequitor that had nothing to do with what I had to say

Its a distraction because you have no argument
 
How is that different from a legal citizen making $15,000 a year?

1. It isn't right that a legal citizen gets a $5K tax credit and 22K for childs education

2. The difference is we are offering free money to people who are not citizens. This situation will never work because open borders with free benefits will result in a massive influx of people who want our lush benefits.

Glad I could educate you!
 
It's not a fee-for-service situation, though. People with no kids pay into the system. I'm not sure what this sort of fallacy is called, but the underlying premise seems to be that people who don't pay at least $11,000 in property taxes are freeloaders if they have a kid in school. Many, many young parents aren't paying that much. Public education is considered to be a public good. We can argue about eliminating any governmental involvement in education, but really, that's got nothing to do with the illegal immigrant issue.

ETA: Stated more succinctly by Loss Leader.

Like I said before it isn't fair no matter who does it.

But illegals getting the benefit are certainly different than citizens in that free benefits will lure more freeloading illegals.

This just keeps hitting the taxpayer and drives us further into debt.

Again I'm glad I can clear this up for you
 
Not useful post: You are wrong! I am right! Liberals suck! Ha ha!

Useful post: Hey this is complicated! How about this as an idea... We require children of illegal immigrants to not be able to invoke USA citizenship until they turn 18... (I am not saying that I agree with this proposal. I am only stating it as a possible conservative position that might be useful to begin the discussion. I see serious concerns, but at least it reflects one part of the real problem that can be debated).
 

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