Michael Brown Shooting

[Caper]

Four cops beat an innocent guy in the Ferguson jail, all told the same story, all retracted their stories when evidence was found lacking and the jail cell camera just coincidentally didn't work that day.

That case is what should have incited riots.


I don't think there will ever be a conviction in this case. Even though I think Mike Brown didn't have to die. I just can't see there ever being enough evidence to convict.
.... Bu cases like the one you cited above, should also be looked at be the federal government. You don't beat a guy and then charge him for bleeding on your uniforms. Someone in charge should be sent to jail for that.

 

[Cain]

How many guards does it take to push an inmate down a flight of stairs?

None. He fell.

 

[marplots]

ETA: Put it another way. Brown may have deserved to die for all sorts of reasons (though I wouldn't include robbery among them). But the only reason that really matters here is if he gave Wilson reason to fear for his life. Do you believe, based on the evidence currently available, that we should even consider that possibility?

Here's my problem with that - it's too subjective. Based on the .gif clip from the store, that same rationale gives the storekeeper at least two opportunities to justifiably kill Brown, had the storekeep been armed. Once when he is physically grabbed and shoved, and a second time when Brown returns "in a threatening manner."

This is the language we would use if we were talking about a tiger or a pit bull. "It lunged at me, so I shot it." But it doesn't seem the same when it's used to explain the death of a young man, even a "thuggish" young man.

Something is wrong.

 

[Cain]

Here's my problem with that - it's too subjective. Based on the .gif clip from the store, that same rationale gives the storekeeper at least two opportunities to justifiably kill Brown, had the storekeep been armed. Once when he is physically grabbed and shoved, and a second time when Brown returns "in a threatening manner."

What if he had punched the storekeeper and tried to take his gun?

 

[marplots]

What if he had punched the storekeeper and tried to take his gun?

Indeed, what-ifs abound. Being subjective means we are left guessing about intent and consequences that didn't happen. Preventing bad outcomes we fear means we accept other bad outcomes, as if we were gods who could see all the possibilities laid out and select the least evil among them.

I think the cops are just as trapped as anyone else. They are trained, "If this happens, do this."

One result is that we have something in this country called "suicide by cop."

 

[varwoche]

So after all the lectures about what terrible skeptics we are, you're now admonishing me not to spend too much time pointing out lies?

Yup, facts be damned is becoming a pattern among the super-skeptics.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

Hair-splitting. He'd committed a violent crime, regardless of exactly how much he stole or exactly how much coercion he used to commit the crime. I was hardly saying "facts be damned". I'm not trying to overstate Brown's guilt, others are trying to minimize it.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

What about door number three, he lost his temper?

What about it?

My comments did not rule out that possibility...

Are you dating that because he preformed a robbery he deserved to die?

Are you just pulling stuff out of your hat, because you have nothing better to add..

 

[Monketi Ghost]

Usually, if someone begins a counter argument with "So..." or "Are you saying that...", what follows is an absurd rewording of the argument being countered.

 

[varwoche]

Considering all the hysteria, ignorance, looting, rioting and racial hatred that this case has generated among the black residents of Ferguson, these new "witnesses" are about as credible as the "witnesses" to the Roswell event. In the crowd of protestors, there was a black woman holding up a "black Hebrew" sign which called for the deaths of all "devils" (white people), and none in the crowd called her out on that. People like that can't be trusted to tell the truth. This case has been tainted by identity politics, so unless there's a 1080p video of the shooting that corroborates these supposed witnesses, or God herself comes down to declare that Brown was murdered, I will disregard all of them.

Right now, it's all about the forensics, and the fact that Brown was a confirmed THUG who assaulted an officer in the face just minutes after he robbed a store through intimidation and violence.

It's impossible to know this. And yet you post it as fact, and even damn the people like that. Unimpressive in the extreme.

 

[marplots]

Usually, if someone begins a counter argument with "So..." or "Are you saying that...", what follows is an absurd rewording of the argument being countered.

So, are you saying that your judgement about posts is the only correct one?

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Sounds like there's a new witness telling his story on Lawrence O'Donnell's show. Says the same things as the other witnesses, but also says Wilson was at least 20 feet from Brown when he fired all those final shots. If so, how does this square with what Wilson claims? How can Brown he "charging" him from so far away? I think the final autopsy will tell more of the story, but since we know that Brown had no GSR on him, that sort of precludes being within 3-5 feet of the gun for any of the shots.

ETA: Video won't be available until tomorrow, so I can't link to the new witness.

Oprah is going to be upset that a "witness" went to the competition.

 

[Ammonitida]

It's impossible to know this. And yet you post it as fact, and even damn the people like that. Unimpressive in the extreme.

She looked quite comfortable standing there holding up her hate sign in full view of other protesters. No media outlet ever reported this woman being confronted about it. You really expect me to believe that there's a possibility that someone in that crowd told her to go home?

 

[Monketi Ghost]

She looked quite comfortable standing there holding up her hate sign in full view of other protesters. No media outlet ever reported this woman being confronted about it. You really expect me to believe that there's a possibility that someone in that crowd told her to go home?

It might have happened. One person telling her "You're *********** up our optics." I'm sure even if nobody said something to her, there were people who winced and disapproved.

 

[LTC8K6]

Sounds like there's a new witness telling his story on Lawrence O'Donnell's show. Says the same things as the other witnesses, but also says Wilson was at least 20 feet from Brown when he fired all those final shots. If so, how does this square with what Wilson claims? How can Brown he "charging" him from so far away? I think the final autopsy will tell more of the story, but since we know that Brown had no GSR on him, that sort of precludes being within 3-5 feet of the gun for any of the shots.

ETA: Video won't be available until tomorrow, so I can't link to the new witness.

There's no problem with 20 feet, imo. It says nothing about whether Brown charged Wilson.

The location of the cases on the ground will tell us where Wilson was standing. Wilson's gun will be test fired with the same lot of ammo to see how it ejects cases and where they tend to land in relation to the shooter. We will then have a good idea of where Wilson was standing.

We know where Brown was stopped.

I have a few different pistols, and they eject cases differently, in different directions, and with different amounts of force. Some will throw the cases quite far.

We have no idea whether Brown had GSR on him, actually.

Baden's autopsy would be unable to determine that.

Baden could only determine that there was no evidence of a very close shot, where the skin would be damaged around the entrance wound.

 

[newyorkguy]

<snip>
That came from early reports of Mr. Brown being a good " kid ", gentle giant, and overall innocent on his way to better himself through education. That made it seem particularly tragic that he had been shot, and inexplicable as to why he would have been. <snip>

The problem is, realistically, we don't know too much about Michael Brown. All we have is pieces of his last day. Was the store incident out of character for him? Was the Michael Brown his family and friends knew a decent person? It seems at least possible. How can we reject that assertion on its face as being self-serving lies when we know so little about him? But not rejecting that doesn't mean we're accepting it, it means we're keeping an open mind.

 

[dudalb]

I note it is always the people on the other side of the political divide who are "unbalanced and not skeptical".

I am convinced a lot of people here made up their minds five minutes after first hearing of the event ,basing on a political ideology,and simply filter out anything that disagrees with that ideology.

 

[sgtbaker]

There's no problem with 20 feet, imo. It says nothing about whether Brown charged Wilson.

The location of the cases on the ground will tell us where Wilson was standing. Wilson's gun will be test fired with the same lot of ammo to see how it ejects cases and where they tend to land in relation to the shooter. We will then have a good idea of where Wilson was standing.

We know where Brown was stopped.

I have a few different pistols, and they eject cases differently, in different directions, and with different amounts of force. Some will throw the cases quite far.

We have no idea whether Brown had GSR on him, actually.

Baden's autopsy would be unable to determine that.

Baden could only determine that there was no evidence of a very close shot, where the skin would be damaged around the entrance wound.

I was trying to gain a little perspective on the case and found this article. It is an opinion piece but it is only intended to understand the process of information gathering and autopsies. I don't think it makes any real claims about the case but I think it is worth a read.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/20/opinion/melinek-michael-brown-autopsy/index.html

 

[Monketi Ghost]

I note it is always the people on the other side of the political divide who are "unbalanced and not skeptical".

I am convinced a lot of people here made up their minds five minutes after first hearing of the event ,basing on a political ideology,and simply filter out anything that disagrees with that ideology.

Maybe so. A few of us have already signed up for a ready admission that we were wrong. Precious few, but there are open minds to be found in this thread on this contentious issue.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

NO. Wilson may or may not say he feared for his life but since we don't have any evidence that was the case, we just don't know yet. The only thing we do know is Wilson shot Michael Brown.

Earlier in the thread you apparently knew a lot more ...

Then he's a lousy shot or he needs to go back for additional training. The point is, he had no business firing his gun into Michael Brown when he was down on the ground, bleeding from his head.

He would be in extreme pain and not able to stand, gloating, for hours over the body of the young man he killed. On this issue, I can speak from personal experience.