Zionism.

[steverino]

Additionally, the phrase "destruction of Israel" is an ambiguous term, since it can imply anything from simply creating a new republic called "Palestine" which is formed on Israel's former territory to shooting nuclear bombs at it until it is nothing but radioactive ruins.

This statement is really bugging me. I keep thinking of a married couple who argues. The husband appears holding a baseball bat, looks into his wife's eyes, and screams, "I swear I'm gunna' kill you one day!"

Maybe he means he wants to "kill" the relationship and get a divorce. But one day, soon, he might try to kill his wife.

 

[steverino]

Fair go. For better or worse, it was Jewish entrepreneurs who invented Hollywood.

WIKI HOLLYWOOD:

In early 1910, director D. W. Griffith was sent by the Biograph Company to the west coast with his acting troop consisting of actors Blanche Sweet, Lillian Gish, Mary Pickford, Lionel Barrymore, and others. They started filming on a vacant lot near Georgia Street in Downtown Los Angeles. The Company decided to explore new territories and traveled several miles north to a little village that was friendly and enjoyed the movie company filming there. This place was called "Hollywood". D. W. Griffith then filmed the first movie ever shot in Hollywood called In Old California, a Biograph melodrama about Latino/Mexican-occupied California in the 1800s. The movie stayed there for months and made several films before returning to New York. After hearing about this wonderful place, in 1913 many movie-makers headed west. With this film, the movie industry was "born" in Hollywood which soon became the movie capital of the world.


Griffith, Gish, Barrymore, Chaplin, Keaton, all Jews?

 

[Thunder]

One thing that does bother me about the Zionism debate is the apparent lack of willingness of many Jews to see the problems that Israel really has. If you provide examples and evidence of discrimination against Arabs you are often called a self-hating Jew, an anti-Semite, or they go into a huge wordy explenation going back 200 years as to why discrimination against Arabs is actually acceptable. If we are to truly win this debate we must be able to acknowledge Israel's real problems and address them. Ignoring racism in Israel does us no good and only hurts the cause.

 

[webfusion]

steverino asks:

Griffith, Gish, Barrymore, Chaplin, Keaton, all Jews?

Hey, will you please stop interjecting facts when a_u_p is trying to tell us that jews invented the American Film Industry! I already tried to show that one of the biggest heads of the modern Studio system, Darryl F Zanuck, was not jewish, and that bit of information was ignored by a_u_p.

parky76 mentions:

One thing that does bother me about the Zionism debate is the apparent lack of willingness of many Jews to see the problems that Israel really has.

Are you referring primarily to Israeli jews, or diaspora jews?

 

[UserGoogol]

This statement is really bugging me. I keep thinking of a married couple who argues. The husband appears holding a baseball bat, looks into his wife's eyes, and screams, "I swear I'm gunna' kill you one day!"

Maybe he means he wants to "kill" the relationship and get a divorce. But one day, soon, he might try to kill his wife.

Well sure, the emotional evocativeness of the word "destroy" is such that people who want to "delicately" dismantle the Israeli government will avoid the word, so yes, there's probably a strong skew towards people using the word in a negative sense. I'm not willing to make a definite conclusion either way, because I don't listen to that many people who explicitly promote the destruction of Israel, but it's a plausible conclusion to make.

That said, in context, I was responding to Brainster, who was saying "Because Israel exists, anti-zionists must want Israel destroyed." Since the person using the word isn't an anti-zionist and was opposing the idea of Israel being destroyed, your argument doesn't really apply. I was merely saying that even if all anti-zionists want Israel destroyed, (and that seems wrong) that doesn't mean they want to do it the "explodey" way. If they actually say they want to destroy Israel in those words, then maybe they do want to do it the explodey way, but if it's some guy on the Internet who makes that choice of words for them, then maybe they don't.

 

[Cleon]

Cleon, the comparison to the US is not relevant.

Israel does not operate under the constraints of the US Constitution and the Jewish State has no 'Establishment' Clause.

I wasn't comparing the US and Israel, nor did I say anything about the Constitution. I was comparing the silly logic of Shas, which you explained, with the silly logic of the Pat Robertsons of the world. It is the same line of thinking.

I am well aware that Israel does have a state religion. That doesn't make it a good thing, and it doesn't mean Shas' line of thinking is rational. It's not, and it doesn't.

 

[steverino]

That said, in context, I was responding to Brainster, who was saying "Because Israel exists, anti-zionists must want Israel destroyed." Since the person using the word isn't an anti-zionist and was opposing the idea of Israel being destroyed, your argument doesn't really apply.

I see your point. In the context of Brainster, my argument is a bit nuanced in a different direction. There are anti-Zionistic Jews in the Diaspora and one must struggle to understand what alternate reality they envision for Israel's future. Anyway, I appreciate your clarification.

 

[The Fool]

steverino asks:

Hey, will you please stop interjecting facts when a_u_p is trying to tell us that jews invented the American Film Industry! I already tried to show that one of the biggest heads of the modern Studio system, Darryl F Zanuck, was not jewish, and that bit of information was ignored by a_u_p.

facts web? who's ignoring what here? You cherrypicked Zanuck...

Zanuck was one of the younger "second generation of Movie moguls.

Here is the first wave...

William Fox, Samuel Goldwyn, Carl Laemmle, Jesse Lasky, Marcus Loew, Louis B. Mayer, and Adolph Zukor,

Then came the next younger wave with people like Jack and Harry Warner, Harry Cohn, Irving Thalberg, David Selznick, and Darryl F. Zanuck,

so you chose zanuck....The only one on that list that is not jewish as your example.....Honestly web, what is it about A_U_P? It seems as if some people will abandon all reason for any chance to disagree with him.... To make the comment that Jewish Entrepreneurs "invented" Hollywood is hardly a wild claim...I hope he never claims that the sun rises in the East...we'd probably have a western sunrise society start up...

 

[steverino]

One thing that does bother me about the Zionism debate is the apparent lack of willingness of many Jews to see the problems that Israel really has.

Define "many." On this forum Jews have consitantly posted opinions of Israel's "problems." Webfusion is Israeli, and he is quite critical on some of Irael's stances. I have learned a lot about Israel's problems from both Webfusion and Cleon, who admits, er, I mean, acknowledges his Judaism.

In American government, a lot of Jewish politicians, particularly Democrats, are very sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinian. Michigan Sen. Carl Levin would be an example.

Jews in Israel are the most willing of all to see Israel's problems.

So my three examples of Jews willing to see the problems that Israel really has are:

1) Jews who post in this forum.
2) Jews in American government.
3) Jews living in Israel.

 

[steverino]

facts web? who's ignoring what here? You cherrypicked Zanuck...

Zanuck was one of the younger "second generation of Movie moguls.

Here is the first wave...

William Fox, Samuel Goldwyn, Carl Laemmle, Jesse Lasky, Marcus Loew, Louis B. Mayer, and Adolph Zukor,

Then came the next younger wave with people like Jack and Harry Warner, Harry Cohn, Irving Thalberg, David Selznick, and Darryl F. Zanuck,

so you chose zanuck....The only one on that list that is not jewish as your example.....Honestly web, what is it about A_U_P? It seems as if some people will abandon all reason for any chance to disagree with him.... To make the comment that Jewish Entrepreneurs "invented" Hollywood is hardly a wild claim...I hope he never claims that the sun rises in the East...we'd probably have a western sunrise society start up...

http://www.gildasattic.com/dwgriffith.html

"In 1919, he (DW GRIFFITH) joined with Mary Pickford, Douglas Fairbanks, Sr., and Charlie Chaplin to form United Artists..."

 

[a_unique_person]

Define "many." On this forum Jews have consitantly posted opinions of Israel's "problems." Webfusion is Israeli, and he is quite critical on some of Irael's stances. I have learned a lot about Israel's problems from both Webfusion and Cleon, who admits, er, I mean, acknowledges his Judaism.

In American government, a lot of Jewish politicians, particularly Democrats, are very sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinian. Michigan Sen. Carl Levin would be an example.

Jews in Israel are the most willing of all to see Israel's problems.

So my three examples of Jews willing to see the problems that Israel really has are:

1) Jews who post in this forum.
2) Jews in American government.
3) Jews living in Israel.

You are referring to those who do, not those who don't. If you had been on this forum at some times in past, you might have had a different impression. There was a recent controversy in Australia in the Jewish community about a group coming out and stating that they didn't think the issue was discussed openly and critically enough. They were attacked for doing this.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/natio...ebate-on-israel/2007/02/06/1170524094658.html

If you don't want to claim the birth of Hollywood, that's fine by me. I thought it was reasonably true, given the many Jewish talents and entrepreneurs involved in the early days of the business, and something to be proud of. But, as you point out, there were others involved in it who weren't Jewish. It's not really worth bothering about. Either way, Magz analogy was wrong.

 

[MaGZ]

WIKI HOLLYWOOD:

In early 1910, director D. W. Griffith was sent by the Biograph Company to the west coast with his acting troop consisting of actors Blanche Sweet, Lillian Gish, Mary Pickford, Lionel Barrymore, and others. They started filming on a vacant lot near Georgia Street in Downtown Los Angeles. The Company decided to explore new territories and traveled several miles north to a little village that was friendly and enjoyed the movie company filming there. This place was called "Hollywood". D. W. Griffith then filmed the first movie ever shot in Hollywood called In Old California, a Biograph melodrama about Latino/Mexican-occupied California in the 1800s. The movie stayed there for months and made several films before returning to New York. After hearing about this wonderful place, in 1913 many movie-makers headed west. With this film, the movie industry was "born" in Hollywood which soon became the movie capital of the world.


Griffith, Gish, Barrymore, Chaplin, Keaton, all Jews?

Well, when did the Jews arrive in Hollywood? We all know they were established in Hollywood at an early date. BTW I thing Chaplin was part Romany.

 

[MaGZ]

Define "many." On this forum Jews have consitantly posted opinions of Israel's "problems." Webfusion is Israeli, and he is quite critical on some of Irael's stances. I have learned a lot about Israel's problems from both Webfusion and Cleon, who admits, er, I mean, acknowledges his Judaism.

In American government, a lot of Jewish politicians, particularly Democrats, are very sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinian. Michigan Sen. Carl Levin would be an example.

Jews in Israel are the most willing of all to see Israel's problems.

So my three examples of Jews willing to see the problems that Israel really has are:

1) Jews who post in this forum.
2) Jews in American government.
3) Jews living in Israel.

Senator Carl Levin has to be considered a rare exception as someone who is concerned about the Palestinian’s plight. I note he is from Michigan which has one of the largest Arab-American populations in the US. If he has concerns then I suspect it is just because of local politics.
The only other Democratic Senator that has cared about the Palestinians is Senator Leahy (who is not Jewish) of Vermont.
For most of the senators Israel comes first.

 

[steverino]

Senator Carl Levin has to be considered a rare exception as someone who is concerned about the Palestinian’s plight. I note he is from Michigan which has one of the largest Arab-American populations in the US. If he has concerns then I suspect it is just because of local politics.
The only other Democratic Senator that has cared about the Palestinians is Senator Leahy (who is not Jewish) of Vermont.
For most of the senators Israel comes first.

Late edit- PARKY76's point was that Jews are insensitive about Israel problems. But I say that Israel can "come first" and also have ethics problems that weigh heavily on those who put her first. To "care about Palestine" is vague. Jews can support Israel and also care about Palestine. We all care about the disenfranchised in Palestine. Some of us do not, however, approve of its government's tactics, and those of certain terrorist groups there.

Also, re: Carl Levin, this is a chicken/egg argument. He had to gain the trust of the Arab Americans in his state to get elected. While his politics are not mine in general, I feel he deserves credit for being Jew and electable in Michigan. I believe that his concerns of Palestine are genuine.

http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/foreign_affairs.html

"Senator Feinstein believes that the Palestinian people deserve a homeland and Israel deserves to exist with safe and secure borders as a democratic state. "

 

[steverino]

http://www.theage.com.au/news/natio...ebate-on-israel/2007/02/06/1170524094658.html

Hey AUP. I was always a huge Stephen Fry fan, from Jeeves and Wooster with Hugh Lurie. I did not know he was a MOT. Thanks for the link!

 

[a_unique_person]

Have you seen their send up of Urie Geller? It's hilarious.

 

[Cleon]

Hey AUP. I was always a huge Stephen Fry fan, from Jeeves and Wooster with Hugh Lurie. I did not know he was a MOT. Thanks for the link!

You didn't know? Dos iz a schonde!

You have forfeited any right to make cracks about me merely "acknowledging" my Judaism. Your punishment is to study the famous Jews of history, beginning with "Abraham."

Do it again and I'll be forced to give you a guided tour of Israel's contributions to the Eurovision Song Contest. You've already seen what that means.

 

[steverino]

You didn't know? Dos iz a schonde!

You have forfeited any right to make cracks about me merely "acknowledging" my Judaism. Your punishment is to study the famous Jews of history, beginning with "Abraham."

Do it again and I'll be forced to give you a guided tour of Israel's contributions to the Eurovision Song Contest. You've already seen what that means.

David lee roth lights the menorrah,
So do james caan, kirk douglas, and the late dinah shore-ah

Guess who eats together at the karnickey deli,
Bowzer from sha-na-na, and arthur fonzerrelli.

Paul newmans half jewish; goldie hawns half too,
Put them together--what a fine lookin jew!

You dont need deck the halls or jingle bell rock
Cause you can spin the dreidl with captain kirk and mr. spock--both jewish!

Put on your yalmulka, its time for hanukkah,
The owner of the seattle super sonic-ahs celebrates hanukkah.

O.j. simpson-- not a jew!
But guess who is...hall of famerrod carew--(he converted!)

We got ann landers and her sister dear abby,
Harrison fords a quarter jewish--not too shabby!

Some people think that ebeneezer scrooge is,
Well, hes not, but guess who is:all three stooges.

 

[Loss Leader]

Guess who eats together at the karnickey deli,
Bowzer from sha-na-na, and arthur fonzerrelli.

Karnickey? Oy gavolt, mein keppe. Try "Carnegie."

I'm Jewish but I am, first and foremost, a New Yorker.

 

[Azure]

It's the stealing that's the messy part. Australia is on stolen land, and IMHO, not nearly enough has been done to remedy that event with it's original inhabitants. It was only in 1967 that the aboriginals were even recognised as citizens with a vote.

Difference being, those aboriginals didn't use violence to get their point across. Neither did they blow themselves up in a crowded market.