Zionism.

[UserGoogol]

Whether one approves or disapproves of a Jewish state, the fact is that it exists. So it seems to me that to be anti-Zionist is little more than to say one supports the destruction of Israel.

Not really. I think the whole idea of nation-states, be they Jewish or not, is somewhat flawed, but I don't think destroying them is a particularly good way of ameliorating those flaws.

Additionally, the phrase "destruction of Israel" is an ambiguous term, since it can imply anything from simply creating a new republic called "Palestine" which is formed on Israel's former territory to shooting nuclear bombs at it until it is nothing but radioactive ruins.

 

[steverino]

the phrase "destruction of Israel" is an ambiguous term, since it can imply anything from simply creating a new republic called "Palestine" which is formed on Israel's former territory to shooting nuclear bombs at it until it is nothing but radioactive ruins.

Those who call for Israel's "destruction" make no secret of wanting it gone by way of your "radioactive" example.

Others who find Israel's existance unjust on certain levels seem to be cool with the Two-State solution, which I find "constructive" rather than destructive.

 

[Loss Leader]

I don't want any government enforcing religious laws. Any religious laws. I don't want to be told I can't buy beer on Sundays, I don't want my diet mandated, I have no desire for football teams to say "shehechianu" before a game, and I sure as hell don't want some schmuck fining me for eating bread on Passover.

Well, in case it wasn't clear, I meant the government enforcing the laws of kashrut the way the US government enforces labeling a product "Organic" or "Low Fat." The merchants are required to live up to a standard to call their food kosher. I certainly didn't mean people should be forced to eat kosher food.

 

[a_unique_person]

Whether one approves or disapproves of a Jewish state, the fact is that it exists. So it seems to me that to be anti-Zionist is little more than to say one supports the destruction of Israel.

That line of thinking just leads to a convenient 'out' for accepting any criticism of Israel's actions that should be criticised. Can one be critical of Israel's actions in regards to the Palestinians, and still not wish the destruction of Israel?

 

[MaGZ]

It is true according to who? Take a look at the countries around Israel and then tell me Israels democracy is a failure.

Last time I looked there were arabs in Israels Parliament. How many jews are in governments in the arab world?

Whether you like it or not, Israel is the only truely transparent democracy in the middle east. Hopefully it wont stay the only one for ever!

Mailman

Lebanon and Iran are democracies.

 

[MaGZ]

You know what's really weird?

A lot of noise is made about Israel being an all-Jewish state and the implications of a nation ruled by religion.

What is seldom pointed out is that "Jew" is not a religion, Israel is not a religious or all-Jewish state, and that Islam is infact unique in the entire world for being the ONLY religion that has not one, but MANY states that are EXCLUSIVELY Islamic.

It's fascinating.

(Okay, I'm ignoring Vatican City, I don't really consider it a country).

-Gumboot

Israel certainly is a religious state which irritates many secular Jews. Just try doing something on the Sabbath.

 

[MaGZ]

I think one thing that interferes with most Americans understanding the concept of Zionism is that their situation is so different from that of the world's Jews. Imagine if you were to be asked to come up with a list of nations with a christian majority. It would be a long list and it would include the US. Matters that are important to christians are important to the US government: Christmas is a national holiday, as is Easter; in many towns blue laws prohibit businesses operating on Sunday; many high school football teams still pray to Jesus before games; there is a national Christmas Tree on the lawn of the White House; the TV show Friends celebrated Christmas even though three of the six characters were Jewish. It all seems very normal and natural. One's religion is reflected in one's society as a whole.

And there are Muslim countries where the same is true for Muslims. Sure, those countries are boring but Eid is a national holiday and huge public bells ring to call people to prayer.

Heck, there are even Animist countries and Shintoist countries and whatever the hell they are in China.

Can you imagine is there were no country in the world where Christians were more than 2% of the population? Can you imagine a world where you stay home on December 25 and everyone else is at work? A world where you have to take a vacation day to celebrate Easter (because Sunday would just be a regular work day)?

When you discuss Zionism, try to consider the fact that we Jews (pre 1948) were a dismally small minority in absolutely every country in the world. Nowhere on the planet was Yom Kippur a national holiday. Nowhere on the planet were the rules of kashrut enforced by the government.



[N.B. I don't want to hear how we stole the land from the Palastinians. Anyone who knows anything about anything knows that British imperialism created Palestine out of nothing whatsoever.]

Can you imagine Christians running the entertainment media in Israel?

 

[MaGZ]

A conspiracy is something that is kept secret, Zionists, as the name implies, were always open about their aims.

Not really. The Balfour decision was the result of Jews conspiring to get the British to turn over Palestine to then. In return the Jews would bring America into World War I on the British side.

 

[webfusion]

A Fountain of Mis-Information

MaGZ declares:

Just try doing something (in Israel) on the Sabbath.

Like shopping? Restaurants? Pubs? Ski slopes? Water parks? Amusement parks? Open-air Bar-b-Que at the Charles Clore Promenade? River Rafting? Museums? Movie theaters? Concerts?

All of the above, and more, are available each Friday night and Saturday, in Tel Aviv, Haifa, Eilat, and many other places around the country.

 

[a_unique_person]

Can you imagine Christians running the entertainment media in Israel?

Fair go. For better or worse, it was Jewish entrepreneurs who invented Hollywood. Americans couldn't get enough of it. Those glory days are gone now, AFAIK. Now it's just the accountants who run the place.

Edit

Do we know if they were Zionists or not? My guess is probably not.

 

[webfusion]

Now it's just the accountants who run the place.

Jewish accountants.


FYI --
Zanuck, who could rightly be called one of the founders of Hollywood,
was born in Wahoo, Nebraska, the son of Louise Torpin and Frank Zanuck, a hotelier; his last name is of Dutch origin, and his father had Dutch and German ancestry. He was not Jewish.

Gentleman's Agreement (1947) was one of the first films about anti-Semitism. It won the Academy Award.

 

[gtc]

Just try doing something on the Sabbath.

You can't force people to work on the Sabbath you know.

There is absolutely no government restrictions preventing Jews from working on the Sabbath in Australia, but you still can't buy a decent bagel in parts of Melbourne before sunset on a Saturday.

By the way, have you tried doing something on the Sabbath in Israel? Have you even met a Jewish person?

 

[William Rea]

How many examples would you like? I'll kick off with Iran's Jewish MP, Maurice Mohtamed.

Officially there are no Jewish people living in Jordan so obviously no political representation is necessary.

 

[William Rea]

Officially there are no Jewish people living in Jordan so obviously no political representation is necessary.

Iraq's first minister of finance, Yehezkel Sasson, was a Jew.

 

[MaGZ]

MaGZ declares:

Like shopping? Restaurants? Pubs? Ski slopes? Water parks? Amusement parks? Open-air Bar-b-Que at the Charles Clore Promenade? River Rafting? Museums? Movie theaters? Concerts?

All of the above, and more, are available each Friday night and Saturday, in Tel Aviv, Haifa, Eilat, and many other places around the country.

Wouldn’t you agree the religious parties are demanding more restrictions on secular Jews? The religious parties, although small, are influential since they are usually needed to form a coalition government.

 

[MaGZ]

Fair go. For better or worse, it was Jewish entrepreneurs who invented Hollywood. Americans couldn't get enough of it. Those glory days are gone now, AFAIK. Now it's just the accountants who run the place.

Edit

Do we know if they were Zionists or not? My guess is probably not.

Hollywood today is still run by Jews. The euphuism that is used is "the creative community."

Many of the Jews in Hollywood in the 30's, 40's, and 50's had Communist leanings.

 

[a_unique_person]

They did, as did many of the non Jews. Although the extent of that leaning was exaggerated, IMHO.

 

[webfusion]

Wouldn’t you agree the religious parties are demanding more restrictions on secular Jews? The religious parties, although small, are influential since they are usually needed to form a coalition government.

Movement of goalposts noted.


I would not agree that the religious parties in Israel are demanding more restrictions on the secular jewish population. Can you provide evidence of that happening? So far, you have made several statements that have little bearing on the facts or reality, and you'll certainly excuse me if I ask for some links to sources to back up your pronouncements from now on...

The religious jews demand that the state institutions observe a certain level of orthodox judaism, as a matter of practical consideration, since otherwise, the orthodox jews would suffer a disadvantage in their own nation, as a minority.
By the way, SHAS, with 12 seats, is tied with Likud for the third-highest number of seats. They are not "small" and accordingly, they have some influence.

 

[Cleon]

The religious jews demand that the state institutions observe a certain level of orthodox judaism, as a matter of practical consideration, since otherwise, the orthodox jews would suffer a disadvantage in their own nation, as a minority.

Which is the same sort of silly logic you hear from the Christian fundies in the US; if you don't make their religious views law, somehow this "discriminates" against them.

 

[webfusion]

Cleon, the comparison to the US is not relevant.

Israel does not operate under the constraints of the US Constitution and the Jewish State has no 'Establishment' Clause.