Thanz said:
Nice strawman again. I just said I was investigating to find out if it is possible.
Did I find "nothing"? Quite contrary, I think it is absolutely possible that credit cards are used to gather information. Are you saying it is impossible? That it is improbable?
If so, please present your evidence hereof.
At any rate, it's a heck of a lot better to try than to do nothing. Or to simply refute the possibility of credit card information being used, without doing anything yourself to investigate it.
That you are lazy, that's one thing. But don't critize others for not being lazy, too.
Thanz
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On another thread I asked you if it was probable, and you said it was. We had a thread dedicated to it. You presented no evidence other than it was possible (not disputed) and that "fraud exists". I asked if you had anything else to add, and you did not.CFLarsen said:
Burden on the claimant, remember? You have no evidence that it is probable. We have been over this already.
Never refuted the possibility. Absolutely it is possible. Just not probable. Occam's razor and all that.
Now who is constructing strawmen? I am not criticizing you for not being lazy. I am criticizing you for being biased and letting that bias cloud your thinking. Do as much investigation as you like. I applaud you for that. But your critical thinking skills leave something to be desired.
Randi is not hopping on a plane this minute because Randi has seen this a million times, and every time it turns out to be nothing.
We shouldn't castigate Randi for being patient or methodical in his search: we should praise him for still searching at all. After as many unremitting failures as he has seen, very few of us would be able to even pretend to care about the next Big Thing.
As a martial artist for the last 20 years, I am extremely confident that no such power exists. If it did, I would be on a plane to Timbuktu tommorrow. But 20 years of training and expierence are hard to ignore.
We shouldn't castigate Randi for being patient or methodical in his search: we should praise him for still searching at all. After as many unremitting failures as he has seen, very few of us would be able to even pretend to care about the next Big Thing.
As a martial artist for the last 20 years, I am extremely confident that no such power exists. If it did, I would be on a plane to Timbuktu tommorrow. But 20 years of training and expierence are hard to ignore.
Thanz
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Well, not really. If this really was a JREF preliminary test, and they really did pass it, we haven't seen this before at all.Yahzi said:
Castigate? No. Be skeptical of what he says? Sure. If it is for real, I'd expect it to be job#1, and that he would have more to say about it than this blurb and would be investigating closely, not "when he gets around to it". I accept that I may be reading too much into his words, and it is entirely possible that the falling down laughing prediction will turn out to be true.
I have no martial arts training, but I am also confident that such a power does not exist. Which is why I think it is startling that a pass of a preliminary JREF test (never done before by anyone) would get seemingly little attention from him.
Thanz said:
Occam's Razor specifically deals with natural explanations, not paranormal ones. You are using Occam wrongly here: You are saying that it is more likely that JE gets his info supernaturally than him getting it via fraud.
Thanz said:
Thanks for making a 180 degree turn. Now, I am "applauded", before I was ridiculed.
Thanz
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This is 100% false. I am NOT saying (nor have I ever said) that it was more likely that JE was talking to the dead than getting it via fraud. Not once.CFLarsen said:
Occam's razor says that we shouldn't posit entities where we don't need them, correct? Have you EVER admitted that ANY JE hit could not be explained by the combination of cold reading and editing of CO? If you have, I have not seen it. Until we have a reason to discount this theory, ther is no reason to invent moles at credit card companies. You are making the mole up as surely as the pixies in my garage. Occam's razor directs us to reject the mole unless there is either positive evidence for the mole, or other evidence that does not fit the cold reading/editing model. Get it now?
No, you are simultaneously being applauded and ridiculed. You get marks for effort. You get ridiculed for your bias and lack of critical thinking skills.
Re: Re: Re: Yellow Bamboo for real?
In this weeks commentary Randi does not say if the man was doing a Randi Prelim test, again as I wrote earlier it this man did go to test them for the JREF and they passed then Randi needs to get there very quick.
However it still looks to me like it was just some guy who went over there. If the man was going for the JREF test, then this weeks commentary is a bit deceptive to me.
To you it looks like a guy went for the JREF, it looks to me like someone who went wrote or called up Randi and told him what happended to him.
Randi needs to clear some things up. I would expect Randi to post something extra after asking if anyone would go to test the Yellow Bamboo people, like we have a person and a date for a prelim test.
As Clancie wrote, there needs to be documentation of tests. I agree that it could and would be much more work but so is the test in general. They leave themselves open to attacks to the JREF's credibility and honesty. Not documenting every claim they get I can understand, but they need to document every test. Putting it on the net would be excellent.
Thanz said:
In this weeks commentary Randi does not say if the man was doing a Randi Prelim test, again as I wrote earlier it this man did go to test them for the JREF and they passed then Randi needs to get there very quick.
However it still looks to me like it was just some guy who went over there. If the man was going for the JREF test, then this weeks commentary is a bit deceptive to me.
To you it looks like a guy went for the JREF, it looks to me like someone who went wrote or called up Randi and told him what happended to him.
Randi needs to clear some things up. I would expect Randi to post something extra after asking if anyone would go to test the Yellow Bamboo people, like we have a person and a date for a prelim test.
As Clancie wrote, there needs to be documentation of tests. I agree that it could and would be much more work but so is the test in general. They leave themselves open to attacks to the JREF's credibility and honesty. Not documenting every claim they get I can understand, but they need to document every test. Putting it on the net would be excellent.
Thanz,
Since we don't know for sure what goes on behind the scenes, we are required to seek out explanations. And we don't just throw out a term and let it be done with that.
When JE is giving readings where he comes up with information that we can read in the papers and find on the Internet, then I am exhibiting good skeptical skills. When JE requires date of birth from his gallery members, then I question what he needs that for and find possible explanations. And since he doesn't have those possibilities (papers, DOB) at the seminars, I would be a very poor skeptic if I simply said "Oh, that's just cold reading". I try to find rational explanations on how he could get information. And credit cards is one of them.
I am not lazy - like you - and just settle for a convenient term. I am not "inventing moles", I am saying that there is a possibility of moles. I can say that because I have investigated. What do you do? You rattle off some terms and think all is peachy. That's bias and lack of critical skills.
Since we don't know for sure what goes on behind the scenes, we are required to seek out explanations. And we don't just throw out a term and let it be done with that.
When JE is giving readings where he comes up with information that we can read in the papers and find on the Internet, then I am exhibiting good skeptical skills. When JE requires date of birth from his gallery members, then I question what he needs that for and find possible explanations. And since he doesn't have those possibilities (papers, DOB) at the seminars, I would be a very poor skeptic if I simply said "Oh, that's just cold reading". I try to find rational explanations on how he could get information. And credit cards is one of them.
I am not lazy - like you - and just settle for a convenient term. I am not "inventing moles", I am saying that there is a possibility of moles. I can say that because I have investigated. What do you do? You rattle off some terms and think all is peachy. That's bias and lack of critical skills.
Kevin_Lowe
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To reinforce what LeFevre said:
Read what Randi wrote. This was just some unknown yahoo sending him an email claiming to have been knocked down.
It's 99.9% certain this is just a Yellow Bamboo cultie laying a smoke screen.
I'm expecting a followup story where the Bamboozlers refuse to be tested by the rec.martial-arts regular now on the way to Indonesia, because "they've already passed Randi's challenge - now where's the million dollars?".
Read what Randi wrote. This was just some unknown yahoo sending him an email claiming to have been knocked down.
It's 99.9% certain this is just a Yellow Bamboo cultie laying a smoke screen.
I'm expecting a followup story where the Bamboozlers refuse to be tested by the rec.martial-arts regular now on the way to Indonesia, because "they've already passed Randi's challenge - now where's the million dollars?".
http://www.yellowbamboo.com/
I've read the website. Looks like material ripped off from the writing of George Lucas. The videos are comical. In the video "Instruction from a Master", one of the "attackers" begins his fall before the "student" begins his counter-attack. My kids could produce better videos than these.
http://www.yellowbamboo.com/videos.html
Long-distance learning available for $9.95...just give them your credit card information...I wonder how many stupid people have done that.
I've read the website. Looks like material ripped off from the writing of George Lucas. The videos are comical. In the video "Instruction from a Master", one of the "attackers" begins his fall before the "student" begins his counter-attack. My kids could produce better videos than these.
http://www.yellowbamboo.com/videos.html
Long-distance learning available for $9.95...just give them your credit card information...I wonder how many stupid people have done that.
Just found an Indonesian guy posting on rec.martial-arts claiming to be Randi's representative for the Yellow Bamboo test.
He describes his experience at http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=...0309152017.3b138591@posting.google.com&rnum=2
Take with a pinch of salt, in case he's not genuine, but it makes interesting reading (as do the reactions of others in the thread).
He describes his experience at http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=...0309152017.3b138591@posting.google.com&rnum=2
Take with a pinch of salt, in case he's not genuine, but it makes interesting reading (as do the reactions of others in the thread).
Kevin_Lowe
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CFLarsen said:
Next time, I'll copyright it!
Too late. I have already astrally projected back to the 14th of January, and used that term to mock the Yellow Bamboo cult in a post to rec.martial-arts.
Now anyone who Googles will think *I* used it first! Hah!
My opinion: That is NOT an Indonesian with English-as-a-third-language writing that. Pretty much guaranteed. And if so, the whole post is a setup, pure and simple.Kess said:
Also the name - Joko Tri - doesn't really sound very Indonesion much either. In fact, I would suggest it's a pun name of some sort from somewhere else in the world.
Zep said:
Just curious: Why not? Too good, too bad? People very often have a hard time understanding that I don't have English as my first language. Luciana's and Patricio's English is even better.
This guy's English is neither atrocious or excellent.
I'm no linguist but I probably agree the message looks suspicious (although a general search for "Joko Tri" suggests it may be a legit Indonesian name). Unfortunately, it doesn't look as if our Joko has responded to any of the comments/questions raised in the rec.martial-arts thread.Zep said:
I would've also expected Randi to choose a tester who he could trust not to be easily fooled - not just some random guy off the street who volunteers. Oh well...
It'll be interesting to see what happens to another chap from rec.martial-arts who is off to Bali in search of the truth about Yellow Bamboo (he sounds pretty determined - see http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=...e=UTF-8&threadm=3cS5/$lmB@netnews.comcast.net )
Generally, Asian speakers and writers of English for whom it is a second, or what is known as a "market" language, tend to drop various smaller words - usually the definite and indefinite articles. They tend to NOT use many-syllabled words, or if they do, to spell them poorly or even phonetically. Also, their grammar tends to revert to that of their native tongue, which is often very un-English-like in structure. Proper English punctuation also falls by the wayside when writing. Only those people with a long and continuous background in English reading and writing will produce the more mellifluous speaking and less affected writing styles.CFLarsen said:
As with any language, even people like ambassadors and translators with decades of experience in another language will still speak and write with a distinctive national style.
In this particular example, it seems fairly clear to me that English is this person's FIRST language and has been for many years, which would be highly improbable for a person from West Java claiming it as his THIRD and most recently learned language. The sentences are long, complex and well constructed, not just short, uncomplicated single phrase structures. And strangely, the "bad grammar due to poor English" doesn't actually appear until later in the piece. This is suggesting strongly to me that it is actually someone pretending to be an "Asian" writer. That, and other factors (the spelling and punctuation, for example) reinforce this feeling that it is indeed a hoax.
BTW, this is no poor reflection on Asian speakers and writers of English - my grasp of Behasa and other SE Asian languages would certainly mean I would commit major errors and faux pas in those languages myself if I tried.
I know this thread could logically be filed here in "Challenge" or else in "Commentary".
But I wish it could have stayed in Community where more people would see it and where interesting discussion was in progress.
After all, it's an interesting point and I think Randi's Commentaries are often very good topics for Community discussion. (I mean, can't we "over categorize" conversation? If we take out all "Politics", "Religion", "Entertainment", "Paranormal", "Sports", "Humor" etc. from Community, just in order to keep things highly organized at this board by topic, we wind up with a pretty limited range of topics left for general Community discussion.
I think some overlap in threads could be a very good thing. (And, yes, I know this should probably have been posted in "Administrative and Moderation Issues" instead. ).
But I wish it could have stayed in Community where more people would see it and where interesting discussion was in progress.
After all, it's an interesting point and I think Randi's Commentaries are often very good topics for Community discussion. (I mean, can't we "over categorize" conversation? If we take out all "Politics", "Religion", "Entertainment", "Paranormal", "Sports", "Humor" etc. from Community, just in order to keep things highly organized at this board by topic, we wind up with a pretty limited range of topics left for general Community discussion.
I think some overlap in threads could be a very good thing. (And, yes, I know this should probably have been posted in "Administrative and Moderation Issues" instead.
).