Yellow Bamboo for real?

[Pyrrho]

There is still a redirect extant in the Community forum.

Of course, thread moves can be appealed to Hal.

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Randi informs me that it was a kind of preliminary demo, since he didn't have a lot of information on the claim. He is awaiting a videotape to take a look.

I've just been told by Randi that no video was made, although he was sent a 12-second "clip." The clip is of low quality.

~~ Paul

 

[Clancie]

Well, that's a bit more info, and it doesn't sound as if he was kidding with his last sentence.

Quick question, Paul: Was the person who observed the demo there on behalf of JREF?

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Yes, he was there on behalf of JREF.

Turns out he made the "video" with a digital camera. Worthless.

~~ Paul

 

[ImpyTimpy]

Well, I don't see why he had to bring in an entire professional crew. As was posted, this was just a preliminary demo (that is to see whether they're just making things up or are they actually trying to fool people). So far it seems there's something worth investigating here and I for one would love to find out how they managed to knock him down (no, I don't believe it was magical fairy dust )...

Yes, he was there on behalf of JREF.

Turns out he made the "video" with a digital camera. Worthless.

~~ Paul

 

[reprise]

Yes, he was there on behalf of JREF.

Turns out he made the "video" with a digital camera. Worthless.

~~ Paul

Anyone want to place bets that the Bamboonies will now claim that Randi rejected their claim even though evidence of its validity was acquired by an independent JREF observer?

 

[Zep]

Sorry, but I still suspect this as a hoax or setup completely.

A JREF representative without at least some reasonable form of video recording? Nothing concrete, just some "WOW!" report and a few seconds of poor video? I would start to be curious about who actually was selected as a JREF representative, Mr Randi, and the procedures that were followed in this "preliminary testing".

Furthermore, the Bamboonies can produce video easy enough for their own purposes (it's on their website), and if this person was indeed a JREF representative then I'm sure they would be touting his "falling down" as "proof" of their claim against JREF far and wide by now! So are they? Anyone?

And having looked at the Bamboonie videos myself, they must be just the most complete load of badly acted hooey I have seen in a long time. Not even as well acted as the Hong Kong kung-fu movies, where we KNOW they are all meant to fall down funny!

No, I'm far from happy with this...

 

[Clancie]

From "Commentary"....

A man who visited Bali to test the "Yellow Bamboo" group, who make supernatural claims that they can knock down an attacker just by shouting, has reported to me that he actually fell to the ground during the test!

Posted by Paul Anagnostopolous

Yes, he was there on behalf of JREF.

So...JREF sent a representative all the way to Bali to conduct a test of this group.

Sounds to me like the Yellow Bamboo group passed the preliminary test. Calling it a "preliminary demonstration" at this point seems rather deceptive, doesn't it?

Posted by Paul Anagnostopolous

Turns out he made the "video" with a digital camera. Worthless.

So the group "passed the test", but now there's no record of it?

How convenient.

Or how incompetent.

This makes Gary Schwartz's much maligned mediumship research look like scientific protocol par excellence by comparison!

(And the need for carefully documenting JREF protocol and testing results continues to grow....)

 

[Thanz]

Since we don't know for sure what goes on behind the scenes, we are required to seek out explanations. And we don't just throw out a term and let it be done with that.

What the heck are you talking about? What term am I just throwing out? Cold reading or Occams razor?

When JE is giving readings where he comes up with information that we can read in the papers and find on the Internet, then I am exhibiting good skeptical skills. When JE requires date of birth from his gallery members, then I question what he needs that for and find possible explanations. And since he doesn't have those possibilities (papers, DOB) at the seminars, I would be a very poor skeptic if I simply said "Oh, that's just cold reading". I try to find rational explanations on how he could get information. And credit cards is one of them.

I notice that you have avoided the question as to whether anything JE comes up with cannot be explained by cold reading and editing. If there is nothing that can't be explained by that, we should accept the most parsimonious explanation. If we think that there is more information than could reasonably be gotten from cold reading, we go to the next most likely source: Internet and news reports. A mole in a credit card company is far down the list of possibilities. It is possible, but not probable. Do you not understand the difference between those two terms?

I have already said that I agree with you that given the choice between a mole and talking to the dead, we go with the mole. But those are not the only two options, and the other options are far more likely than the mole.

I am not lazy - like you - and just settle for a convenient term. I am not "inventing moles", I am saying that there is a possibility of moles. I can say that because I have investigated. What do you do? You rattle off some terms and think all is peachy. That's bias and lack of critical skills.

How in the world is that "Bias"? What is my "bias"?

You are inventing moles - and you said that it was probable, not just possible. As for me being "lazy", why are you accusing me of this and not someone like TBK? I certainly do more work than he does, yet I have never seen you castigate him for lack of work. Is it perhaps because he just agrees with everything you say? Now that is bias.

And for the rest of you, I apologize for this sidetracking between Claus and myself.

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Clancie said:

Sounds to me like the Yellow Bamboo group passed the preliminary test.

Randi specifically said that it was not a test, but a demo.

~~ Paul

 

[GroundStrength]

In all cases, applicant will be required to perform the preliminary test either before an appointed representative, if distance and time dictate that need, or in a location where a member of the JREF staff can attend. This preliminary test is to determine if the applicant is likely to perform as promised during a formal test. To date, no applicant has passed the preliminary test, and this has eliminated the need for formal testing in those cases. There is no limit on the number of times an applicant may re-apply, but re-application can take place only after 12 months have elapsed since the preliminary test

As far as I can read there is nothing in the protocall about a prelimnary demonstration. this quote from the application clearly defines what has happened here. Although the JREF may not want to call it a preliminary 'test' it seems that there is no other bucket to drop it in.

Evidence..

1) In all cases, application will be required to perform the preliminary test either before an appointed representative, if distance and time dictate that need, or in a location where a member of the JREF staff can attend.

This is clearly the situation at hand. No mention of videotape or quality of recorded media at all.

2)This preliminary test is to determine if the applicant is likely to perform as promised during a formal test.


No room for prelimanary demos anywhere. It seems if the man that went was acting as an appointee of the JREF you've got test.

 

[CFLarsen]

Well, that's a bit more info, and it doesn't sound as if he was kidding with his last sentence.

We shall have to wait and see. Until then, it might be wise not to get too far ahead of yourself.

So...JREF sent a representative all the way to Bali to conduct a test of this group.

No, that is not what Paul said. Please stop twisting the words. You even called it a "demo" before, but now it has grown into a "test" in your mind:

Quick question, Paul: Was the person who observed the demo there on behalf of JREF?

Pah, Clancie.

Sounds to me like the Yellow Bamboo group passed the preliminary test. Calling it a "preliminary demonstration" at this point seems rather deceptive, doesn't it?

Why? What is wrong with checking it out beforehand?

So the group "passed the test", but now there's no record of it?

No, there never was a record of it in the first place, and it wasn't a test. Stop twisting the words.

How convenient.

How blatantly dishonest of you to try and misconstrue this.

Or how incompetent.

Not at all. It was simply a person, offering to go see what this was all about. Surely you don't expect Randi to test people out of the blue?

This makes Gary Schwartz's much maligned mediumship research look like scientific protocol par excellence by comparison!

Far from it. Nobody has claimed to do science here. GS did.

(And the need for carefully documenting JREF protocol and testing results continues to grow....)

Oh, that would be nice, had it been a formal test. It wasn't.

 

[CFLarsen]

No room for prelimanary demos anywhere. It seems if the man that went was acting as an appointee of the JREF you've got test.

Not correct, I'm afraid.

Skeptica, the Danish skeptics, can test for JREF, but that doesn't mean that everytime we look at somebody doing something, it is a test. First, we find out what the heck this is about. A demonstration is a very good thing, because then we can determine what protocols are needed. Then, we sit down and negotiate a preliminary test. Then, we formally test.

It's not as easy as going to a place and participate in a demonstration. Which this clearly was.

 

[Clancie]

From James Randi's Commentary:

A man who visited Bali* to test the "Yellow Bamboo" group, who make supernatural claims that they can knock down an attacker just by shouting, has reported to me that he actually fell to the ground during the test.

Just repeating Randi's own description of what the JREF representative was doing in Bali. Clearly he uses the word "test". Twice.

Posted by Ground Strength

1) In all cases, application will be required to perform the preliminary test either before an appointed representative, if distance and time dictate that need, or in a location where a member of the JREF staff can attend.

This is clearly the situation at hand. No mention of videotape or quality of recorded media at all.

2)This preliminary test is to determine if the applicant is likely to perform as promised during a formal test.

No room for prelimanary demos anywhere. It seems if the man that went was acting as an appointee of the JREF you've got test.

You've quoted the rules exactly, Ground STrength, and there's simply no getting around it. No, it was not a "preliminary demonstration" (whatever that might conveniently be described as now ).

The JREF observer went to Bali to view applicants who complied with the rules of a preliminary test and presented their claim. It had to be self-evident, no judging needed, and it was.

It is called a test by Randi himself, and was conducted by a JREF representative, exactly as the rules say a preliminary test must be done.

So...Congratulations to the Yellow Bamboo group! You're the first challengers ever to pass the preliminary test in the entire history of the JREF!

Good luck going for the million dollars!

 

[gnome]

You're forgetting rule number one:

1. Applicant must state clearly in advance, and applicant and JREF will agree upon, what powers or abilities will be demonstrated, the limits of the proposed demonstration (so far as time, location and other variables are concerned) and what will constitute both a positive and a negative result. This is the primary and most important of these rules.

Have they sent the signed claim form? Has said agreement been reached? If not, they haven't even begun the process, no matter who shows up where to observe whatever.

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Clancie, sheesh, come up for some air.

~~ Paul

 

[LeFevre]

I fired off an email to Randi asking if he could clear some things up. I asked

Did the man whom you wrote about in this weeks Commentary (September 19, 2003) test the Yellow Bamboo group as someone from the JREF for a preliminary test? If so, did the folks at Yellow Bamboo pass the JREF preliminary test?

I did not get an answer from Randi (unless he is really Linda! ) but I did get an answer from Linda. She wrote that it was not an official preliminary test.

I think it would still be great if Randi posted to clear this up.

Did they contact the guy who went before his trip? Did this guy read or otherwise hear about Randi's question for someone to go test the Yellow Bamboo folks? Did this guy go alone without any contact with the JREF and then call up Randi telling him the test was all good?


As I wrote earlier, it sounded to me like some guy doing this on his own.

So I guess if Randi doesn't post to clarify you could email him or Linda and ask.

 

[LeFevre]

Just repeating Randi's own description of what the JREF representative was doing in Bali. Clearly he uses the word "test". Twice.
[/B]

And no mention of a JREF rep, just a man who went there to test them. The man is free to test the Yellow Bamboo people all he wants.

The JREF observer went to Bali to view applicants who complied with the rules of a preliminary test and presented their claim. It had to be self-evident, no judging needed, and it was.

Well again I hope Randi posts to clear this up, but the guy wasn't an observer for the JREF. If there was an agreement and the JREF is trying to back out, the Yellow Bamboo people should have notarized documents of the exchange going up to the agreement (their application at least).

So...Congratulations to the Yellow Bamboo group! You're the first challengers ever to pass the preliminary test in the entire history of the JREF!

A Congrats is in order if the guy was a JREF rep and did go there to test them for an agreed upon test of their claim, and the Yellow Bamboo group did pass this prelim test.

 

[LeFevre]

Randi informs me that it was a kind of preliminary demo, since he didn't have a lot of information on the claim. He is awaiting a videotape to take a look.

I've just been told by Randi that no video was made, although he was sent a 12-second "clip." The clip is of low quality.

~~ Paul

I just read this Paul. So from this I take it that the guy who went and tested the Yellow Bamboo group did have contact with the JREF. So this guy was a JREF rep. Did this man, who took his own time and money I assume to go and test or demo or whatever, go for little reason? Reading the other commentary, Randi was asking if anyone could go and test the YB group, not go and do some demo prelim prelim test.

This thing really needs clearing up. Was there an application from the Yellow Bamboo people? If so, were they aware that this test was really a prelim prelim demo? Did this JREF rep think he was going to test them for the cash (a preliminary test for the award) or was he aware that he was going to observe what the YB group claims they can do (that should have been clarified before the agreement and in their application)?

I don't see how a 4 month old thread of Jesse's is more important to post to than clearing up things on this thread.


I've seen the footage on the Yellow Bamboo site, I remember awhil ago a thread in the Bant. . . uh. . . Community forum about how funny the YB group is. Their clips on their site are smeggin great. White tourists being taught the Yellow Bamboo way of throwing out your arms and screaming at three or four guys running at you forcing them to the ground, funny stuff.

But this issue is at the core of the JREF, it needs to be taken seriously. Again, clearing up this weirdness would be most appreciated.

 

[michaellee]

If you haven't already, read these excerpts from the Yellow Bamboo site- For the experienced skeptic here at the JREF, this will tell you everything you need to know about this group. You will see the typical "give me an out" spiel below concerning both the JREF million dollars, and the requirements to "knock down an attacker"- typical typical typical.

This test or supposed test is nothing more than hype.


Original Material obtained from:
Yellow Bamboo Member Story


"I am currently level 5 which is the level you can also become a Pembina (teacher) and teach lower levels but not yet able to do initiation ceremonies. I found about YB from a friend of mine who told me about her amazing experiences. I took my level 1 initiation in August of 2002 at the full moon ceremony in Singaraja Bali at the YB headquarters at Jalan Rajawali Gang Satria 4. "

"Every level has been amazing and different and I have had many super or extra normal experiences outside the knocking down of people."

"1. First of all let me clearly state I have *no* financial or other kind of benefit from the Yellow Bamboo society. I don’t give a toss or care if you believe or disbelieve their claims or join or not it is entirely up to you. I have no hidden agenda and get nothing in return if you join or believe. So do not expect me to jump through any hoops to get you to believe or join."

"2. Second let me state that no one in the entire YB society (of which we have over 30,000 members) get *any* financial remuneration from the YB public courses. Not even Pak Nyoman Seringen, the founder, gets any money from the YB followers. In fact Pak Seringen holds a full time job in the Balinese government in the department of education. That is how he supports himself."

"All of the above is free of charge although donations are accepted at full moon ceremonies all of which are given to charities not one penny ( I mean Rupiah) is kept by YB."

"The only exception is for intensive training sessions. Intensive training sessions are given usually to westerners who cannot or do not wish to live here for the 1-2 years time it usually takes to progress from level 1 to level 11."

"In general, for someone to be able to defend themselves from attackers they only need complete the level 1 course. In the intensive mode this can take as little as 2 nights and 2 full days for really serious students."

"Here is my advice for those who are *sincerely* trying to understand more about YB. I have been living here for 8 years now and there is no way a westerner can understand the Balinese Hindus values and culture from the western viewpoint."

"So their connection to God is the most important thing in the world to them. God and Karma is more important to them than even money. For example, I suggested to Pak Seringen, would it be okay if I used my telepathy (which you learn in level III) to win the lottery."

"I thought we could use all that money for charities, feed starving children etc. Pak Seringen said it would be wrong, bad Karma to use “gambling” money proceeds even if it would do good because the karma which would attach to me would be very bad."

"So you must understand that they would not go jumping through hoops and doing a lot of things just for the sake of money. I know- that is very un western of them, is it not?"

"Now let me talk a bit about the defending of attackers demonstrations. I have watched many attacker demonstrations and here is my take on them."

"In general if a person off the street were to attack, say a level 1 defender, there is the probability it will cause internal bleeding and possible death."

"This is because a level 1 defender is using a powerful weapon and does not know how to control it, say to use just enough power to knock them out."

"So yes- if you were walking down the street and someone tried to kill you and you defended yourself- the attacker may suffer serious if not fatal damage. But in my opinion it is their karma and they deserved it."

"In the attacking demonstrations they usually do not permit someone to be an attacker until they are level IV because by then they have built up enough internal power that they can be repelled without getting permanently hurt."

"But even then, when you are an attacker even level IV or above and are repelled it really hurts a lot!"

"So this is one of the many reasons why I or others for example would not be willing to do a defense demonstration without Pak Seringen present. So I win a million dollars but get put in jail for killing someone what good would the money do me there?"

"Lower level students can only knock people down if the attacker is really angry with hate in his heart. My understanding is that Pak Seringen can knock down an attacker even if they do not have hate and anger in their hearts."

"So it would be possible, if you were just fooling around, to run up to the level 1 defender and smack him *softly* without trying to hurt him if you just wanted to be funny and show off. Only Pak Seringen would be able to repel them regardless of their intent."

"This is also why a non attacker is not effected even if they are standing next to an attacker because they do not have the intention to hurt."

"One time I asked Pak Seringen the “difference that makes the difference” in becoming successful in YB. Here is what he told me must be there:

1. First of all the most important thing is that you must believe in the YB and the power of God.

2. Second you must have consultations with a Pembina.

3. You must attend a full moon initiation ceremony.

4. You must do the mantra exercises daily.

5. You must practice the sport exercises daily."