Split Thread WWII & Appeasement

Actually it is fairly easy to win an argument about whether or not Dunkirk was a defeat or victory. just apply the normal criteria for deciding whether or not a battle is a victory or defeat. If you do then it is obviously a German victory. Successful flight from a battlefield is not much of a victory or a victory at all the overwhelming majority of the time. Especially since the BEF, left behind over 700 tanks, (40,000 British solders were captured in and around Dunkirk), practically all of it's heavy artillery, masses of trucks, great amounts of guns, ammunition etc. In fact so much equipment was lost it took months to rearm the British divisions. In fact many of the men even lost their rifles!

During and after the war the British were very successful in portraying Dunkirk has a "victory", when it was actually a serious defeat.

It was only a "victory" in the sense that if not for the skill and bravery of the various services involved the great majority of the men trapped would have been captured. Although we must here also thank Hitler for his halt order of May 26, 1940 which more or less stopped German forces for c. 3 days.

In other words the defeat at Dunkirk could have been easily much worst but it wasn't and that was very important in the long run. However it still remains a defeat. I just would not categorize has "victory" all the numerous occasions in which a defeated army manages to escape total destruction. If that is the case than the Falaise pocket in 1944 was a German "victory".

Certainly the British being able to more than 200,000 trained men of the BEF to serve in reconstituted divisions was militarily important and it would have been far worst to lose those men into German captivity, but it doesn't make Dunkirk a "victory". It is instead the difference between a serious defeat and a catastrophic one.
The bit I highlighted is correct. At Dunkirk, the Germans did not achieve their objective; the British did. If we go by simple criteria such as that, it's clearly a British victory. The single and artificial criterion of whoever-controls-the-battlefield to determine victory does not apply at Dunkirk nor at many other places.

While it may be going too far to say Dunkirk was a British victory, it is going equally too far to claim it as German victory. Initially, Germany hoped to place the Allied armies at a strategic disadvantage with Fall Gelb; their unexpectedly wild success led them to modify their objectives to include the conquest of France and peace terms with Britain. They accomplished the first and not the latter.

I recommend re-reading theprestige's comments about Clausewitz and the value (and necessity) of the pursuit. While Clausewitz is somewhat limited in that his framework is quite distinctly Napoleonic style warfare and its constant quest for a battle of annihilation, it is rare to find a military operation in which his words do not offer insight. The Battle of France, The Battle of Aras, the French and British defense of the Dunkirk perimeter, and the successful evacuation of the BEF, even sans equipment, could be put in the original text of On War as the perfect example of what Clausewitz says not only of the necessity of pursuit but of its difficulty.
 
The tanks were stopped. They needed to re supply, refit and recover breakdowns.
More importantly the terrain and flooded, wet fields around Dunkirk and it's surroundings would have been a deathtrap for armour. Tanks would have been channelled in to fixed lines of advanced which were well covered by defending AT guns that couldn't have been flanked.
Artillery and infantry attacks continued without a halt and intensified as the perimeters shrank.
Resistance also increased as the retreating forces dug in and formed defensive positions.

So for once not referencing 'Wages of Destruction' but Dunkirk: Retreat to Victory instead. :)

The halt order originated with the front line commanders of the Panzer formations, as you say they recognized the need to regroup, refit and resupply. They also wanted to conserve the panzers for what they saw as the main objective, breaking the French armies to the south, storming into Paris and polishing their egos in the process. This last point also explains why after the war they were so eager to pin responsibility for the halt order on Hitler and exaggerate its effect, establishing the idea that they could have won the war there and then except for 'crazy Hitler'.

The reality was the attacks on the Dunkirk pocket continued unabated during the halt and the Panzer generals had no intention of wasting their armour on reducing a defensive line that was obviously doomed when the real prizes lay elsewhere.
 
Chamberlain was right.

Are you seriously so desperate for attention? Here you go, I've noticed you. Now do you have any evidence to back up your numerous claims? Or any evidence for the above? And by evidence I mean something that isn't a blog, political editorial, or other random page thrown up by a google search.

You could have been using the time since your last post to read some real history books, but I wouldn't bet any money on it.
 
You do realize that the Irish were being totally principled here:

The Irish were maintaining that they were a sovereign nation.
One of the principles of sovereignty is territorial integrity.
Allowing the naval forces of another nation (and one that you'd just fought a war against to become sovereign to boot) to freely use naval bases in your country is contrary to the principles of territorial sovereignty.

You might want to tone down the anti-Irish bigotry to "non-existent" from the "racist grandpa claiming "some of my best friends are.."" levels your doing now.

There was an interesting quote by an actor in a film playing an Irishman in the second world war in which he says the Germans could use ports in Ireland if the British were allowed to use the Irish treaty ports. The matter was more complicated than it appears and was not appeasement. I never liked the way De Valera expressed his sympathy to the Germans about the death of Hitler after the war ended. The matter is explained at this website:

www.theirishstory.com/2018/05/21/the-emergency-a-brief-overview/#.XEyP0vZ2suI

Because of Ireland’s stance, many in Britain claimed that Ireland was secretly pro-Axis and rumours, mostly unfounded, abounded of German u-boats docking on Ireland’s west coast.

Pressure increased on Ireland to join the war after the entry of the United State in 1941. The American consul in Dublin David Gray, was extremely hostile to Irish neutrality and consistently reported, erroneously, that Irish neutrality was pro-Axis.
This meant that Ireland had to aid the Allies in order placate Britain, avoid a possible British invasion and to avoid American hostility.

At the start of the war, De Valera secretly agreed with the British to share naval and marine intelligence with them.[5]

Dan Bryan, the head of Irish military intelligence, developed particularly close relations with his British counterparts during the war.
 
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There was an interesting quote by an actor in a film playing an Irishman in the second world war in which he says the Germans could use ports in Ireland if the British were allowed to use the Irish treaty ports.

Congratulations this is officially the worst 'evidence' you have ever offered, and I've seen your posts on the Jeffery McDonald thread...
 
Churchill was once described by General Alan Brooke as having an astonishing lack of vision. The British working classes seemed more interested in obtaining a bathroom for their houses at the time. That was the attitude of the workers.
Professor Richard Overy talks and writes sense about appeasement and the second world war and he seems to pop up on TV now and again:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2007/oct/17/everyonehasgotina

Historians have started to reassess Chamberlain over the past few years. This is not just a piece of crude right-wing revisionism. It is clear that Chamberlain's policy always had limits - his "red lines" - but it was also evident that Britain was neither prepared enough nor sufficiently united on the idea of waging world war for a second time in a generation for the government to pursue confrontation. As it was, on the day before Hitler agreed to the Munich Conference, on 27 September 1938, France and Britain were preparing to face the prospect of war if German forces crossed the Czech frontier. Hitler was made to climb down at Munich from the little war he wanted to blood his armed forces and re-assert German predominance in Europe and he bitterly regretted it.

Above all what Chamberlain wanted to avoid was another bloodletting like 1914-18. Though not a pacifist he shared his population's wide antipathy to war. Avoiding war was not just feebleness of spirit, however it might look today, but a desperate, anguished fear that war would do infinitely more damage than a policy of concession.

Chamberlain was right. Unleashing war in 1939 cost more than 50 million lives. Remarkably few of them were British, which perhaps explains why 70 years later British politicians can still be found who prefer confrontation to appeasement, and why the Labour party, which has eagerly joined in every war going in the past decade, thinks fighting must be morally preferred to peace for our time too.
 
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Churchill was once described by General Alan Brooke as having an astonishing lack of vision. The British working classes seemed more interested in obtaining a bathroom for their houses at the time. That was the attitude of the workers.
Professor Richard Overy talks and writes sense about appeasement and the second world war and he seems to pop up on TV now and again:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2007/oct/17/everyonehasgotina

So another commentary that has more to do with modern politics than the history of appeasement. Granted this one is by an actual historian but contains nothing that hasn't already been thrashed out in this thread. Which of Overy's books have you read?
 
They had that General Dannatt on TV a couple of days ago who said that if Lord Halifax had been Prime Minister in May 1940 he would have done a deal with Hitler. Another pundit then popped up on TV to say that Churchill won the war.

The trouble with all that is that Lord Halifax never wanted to be prime minister. I don't think it's the pure unadulterated historical truth. I suppose if Hitler had invaded then the quislings Hoare and Lloyd George would have been in charge supported by the Right Club aristocracy and the Nazi Edward VIII back as king.
 
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What evidence do you have for their being 'quislings'?



What evidence do you have for his being a 'Nazi'?

I'm beginning to think Henri has set up some sort of bot program that spits out random WWII posts. The latest example has nothing to do with appeasement and yet again references some random bit of TV Henri happened to watch.
 

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