• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Worst Rape Apologist Editorial Ever

No.
That is not at all what he is writing.
You are making a fire of a strawman.

Well, that was informative. I'm glad you're here.


If you could expand on that just a teeeensy bit, perhaps explaining why you believe what you believe, maybe supported by some sort of logic or reasoning, then we might be able to have a discussion about it.

If you're just going to sit on the sidelines and make unsupported, snide comments at everyone else, then, quite rightly, no-one's going to lend any weight at all to anything you say.
 
That is not at all what he is writing.

I don't know why you're telling deliberate lies here. I just know that you are.

Dan Rottenberg said:
But in practice, rape and the notion of sexual conquest persist for the same reason that warfare persists: because the human animal— especially the male animal— craves drama as much as food, shelter and clothing. Conquering an unwilling sex partner is about as much drama as a man can find without shooting a gun— and, of course, guns haven’t disappeared either.
Earth to liberated women: When you display legs, thighs or cleavage, some liberated men will see it as a sign that you feel good about yourself and your sexuality. But most men will see it as a sign that you want to get laid.

It's perfectly clear from the above passage that Rottenberg is arguing that all men, on some level, want to rape women, and that women encourage men to rape them by wearing revealing clothing. Stop pretending otherwise.

Dave
 
It is blaming the victim if there is no indication that dressing one way or another would actually influence your risk of being raped at all.

In other words, it's equivalent to saying that somebody who got knocked down by a car was partly at fault for not praying before crossing the road, rather than for not looking.

Dave
 
And there are far better ways to take precautions than how you dress, for instance, when you go out, staying as part of a group who watch each other's backs, watching how much you drink, keeping an eye on your drink, and not going home with a random stranger. When exercising, do it as a group, don't wear headphones, and changing your daily exercise route if you run or walk in public. At home, keep the front door and windows locked, have chain on the door, and a lock on your bedroom door. Keep a cell phone in the bedroom close to the bed so you can reach it and use it fast if you suspect an intruder, and do use it, better to have a false alarm than to not call for help when you actually need it. Self-Defence lessons are always handy too.

Yes it's sad that women need to do this sort of thing to stay safe, and in a perfect world they wouldn't need too, but we need to be realistic about, there are predators out there that will take any advantage they can get to steal and violate anyone they can get hold of.

One of the things he said was good advice, not disrobing in front of a masseur. Not only is that common sense for helping to avoid the perverts, but also it's just common decency not to do it in front of the non-perverts IMO and I'd hope that the majority of woman wouldn't do it anyway.

The best precaution is to always remain aware of your surroundings, keep an eye on what is happening around you, and trust your instincts. If you think things don't feel right, get the heck out of Dodge and/or find a group of people to make things a little more public.

As much as it is horrid to say, as long as there are creeps that watch for women who are alone and vulnerable to prey on, remaining alert, ready, and with friends is the best precaution against them, ar least until all of those creeps have beenm caught and had the bits that make them a threat removed.


Most of this advice, which relates to 'passive' self defence is equally applicable to men.
 
Dan Rottenberg said:
Earth to liberated women: When you display legs, thighs or cleavage, some liberated men will see it as a sign that you feel good about yourself and your sexuality. But most men will see it as a sign that you want to get laid.

Legs? Seriously, which century does this guy come from and who left the time machine unsupervised - AGAIN?

And even if it was true that most men would see it as a sign that the woman in question would want to get laid*: How does he get from there to rape?

There is one kind of dress that even I think shows that the woman in question wants to get laid:
Bridal-gown-14.jpg



Pro Tip: This doesn't mean she is absolutely indifferent as to who she will end up with or whether he asks for permission to have sex with her.

Further Pro Tip: If a woman *really* *absolutely* wants to get laid by you ... it should be quite obvious that there would be no need to rape her in the first place!

* and even then there will probably be exceptions. In fact, I hear it is quite common for the wedding to be too exhausting for anything much to happen right afterwards.
 
In other words, it's equivalent to saying that somebody who got knocked down by a car was partly at fault for not praying before crossing the road, rather than for not looking.

Dave

Yes, something like that.

And *then* we are talking about a road in a pedestrian zone where no car is ever allowed to drive, anyway, with very few and very specific exceptions none of which applied in the case that's being looked at.
 
There is one kind of dress that even I think shows that the woman in question wants to get laid:
[qimg]http://www.weddingdresscentre.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Bridal-gown-14.jpg[/qimg]

Speaking as a single man with no experience of married life beyond bad movies and sitcoms, I thought that was the sort of dress women wore on the day they start stopping having sex. Have I got that wrong?
 
Speaking as a single man with no experience of married life beyond bad movies and sitcoms, I thought that was the sort of dress women wore on the day they start stopping having sex. Have I got that wrong?

I am in the age bracket where the people around me all started producing little replicas of themselves - as far as i can tell, most of them got married first.
 
Speaking as a single man with no experience of married life beyond bad movies and sitcoms, I thought that was the sort of dress women wore on the day they start stopping having sex. Have I got that wrong?

Speaking as a married father of four, yes. But I still have to ask, whatever she's wearing.

Dave
 
Advising women to take reasonable precautions in their dress -- like in crossing the street -- is not "blaiming the victim". It's blaming the vicim when the "reasonable precautions" turn out to be "any woman who dresses less modesty than I approve of".

It is blaming the victim when:

- that point is made just to support his canned talking points about political solutions vs wild-west everyone takes care of himself, complete with caricatural anecdotes of people leaving the door open and expecting society to protect them from burglars. I'm sorry, I don't care how much he's itching to rehash his canned talking points, he can have the decency to not use a violent gang rape as a soapbox. And especially when "political solutions" mean protection from violent rape, not, say, extra welfare, it seems pretty callous to preach about how foolish it is to want that.

- if he's digging that deep for something to blame on the victim as using a dress she wore at a whole other time and place, in fact half-way across the globe, as what made those guys rape her. Complete with such BS as, "And if you want to be taken seriously as a journalist, don’t pose for pictures that emphasize your cleavage. " Funny, I thought I take journalists seriously by the quality of their writing and sources. And when he needs to ignore what actually happened at that gang-rape, and that it had nothing to do with that dress. It had to do with someone in the crowd shouting that she's a Jew, and a bunch of idiot Arabs taking it upon themselves to teach the Jew a lesson. (Incidentally, she ain't.) I'm sorry, that's not analysing an incident and giving self-defense advice, it's going the extra mile to find something to blame on the victim.

It's like if I went to some guy who's been beat up by skinheads for being a black, and telling him, "see, that's why you shouldn't count your money when exiting the bank if you don't want to get mugged."

- it's phrased as insultingly as "Earth to liberated women"

- it's basically depending on a condition as impossible to fulfil as not giving someone an idea that you want to get laid.

"Earth to liberated women: When you display legs, thighs or cleavage, some liberated men will see it as a sign that you feel good about yourself and your sexuality. But most men will see it as a sign that you want to get laid. "

Earth to preachy idiot journalist: in ages and places when women didn't show legs, thighs or cleavage, things that got seen as a sign that a woman totally needs some dick included: showing wrists or ankles or face or hair (Saudi religious police actually beat some schoolgirls fleeing a burning school and shoved them back in a burning building for not having their scarf, 'cause, you know, showing some hair is seriously slutty and provocative clothing), reading, eating chocolate, smoking, asthma or any breathing trouble (in fact, it was the original definition of 'hysteria'), frigidity (Freud made it the same as nymphomania), lesbianism (see, 'corrective rape' based on the belief that she totally actually needs some dick), or even not doing anything at all, whether as just lazy, depressed or even catatonic ('hysteria' again.) If his defense is based on all women not giving such "signs", that's a condition impossible to fulfil, because in a world where even explicitly not liking sex is taken as a sign that someone really wants to get laid, really, anything can be taken as that sign.

And I'm pretty sure it's just blaming the victim when it's about not doing something impossible.

- he has data even in his lifetime, and indeed within his fourty years of journalism, that it doesn't work that way. Skirt lengths steadily reduced through the 60's and early 70's, until really they couldn't go any shorter, and then there was a sudden return into fashion of midi and maxi skirts. There is a point where within a year or two, a lot less women showed thighs. If there were an objective correlation between that and rape, you'd expect to see a dip in the DOJ statistics about forcible rape. They're actually public, so he doesn't even need some journalistic privileges to look. Where is that dip? I've actually looked through the data for a dozen states or so yesterday, and I'm not seeing even an inflection, much less a dip. The reported rapes per capita climb steadily until the '90's, when it starts taking a nose-dive.

- he stretches it as far as ending up making statements like, "If you take a job as a masseuse, don’t be shocked if your male customers think you’re a prostitute."
 
Last edited:
- he stretches it as far as ending up making statements like, "If you take a job as a masseuse, don’t be shocked if your male customers think you’re a prostitute."

It's worse: Even if it was somewhat reasonable to believe that anyone advertising as a masseuse was, in fact, a prostitute, it would still not be justified to have sex with such women without their consent let alone against their explicit denial of said consent. He is, in fact, telling us that it is okay to rape prostitutes.

Maybe masseuses shouldn't be shocked if people thought they were prostitutes. Maybe it really is very common for prostitutes to openly offer massage-services. Maybe there really are no places that actually offer nothing but massages - then, at which stage does it become okay to rape or sexually assault any of the women involved if they say "no"?
 
And there are far better ways to take precautions than how you dress, for instance, when you go out, staying as part of a group who watch each other's backs, watching how much you drink, keeping an eye on your drink, and not going home with a random stranger. When exercising, do it as a group, don't wear headphones, and changing your daily exercise route if you run or walk in public. At home, keep the front door and windows locked, have chain on the door, and a lock on your bedroom door. Keep a cell phone in the bedroom close to the bed so you can reach it and use it fast if you suspect an intruder, and do use it, better to have a false alarm than to not call for help when you actually need it. Self-Defence lessons are always handy too.

Yes it's sad that women need to do this sort of thing to stay safe, and in a perfect world they wouldn't need too, but we need to be realistic about, there are predators out there that will take any advantage they can get to steal and violate anyone they can get hold of.

One of the things he said was good advice, not disrobing in front of a masseur. Not only is that common sense for helping to avoid the perverts, but also it's just common decency not to do it in front of the non-perverts IMO and I'd hope that the majority of woman wouldn't do it anyway.

The best precaution is to always remain aware of your surroundings, keep an eye on what is happening around you, and trust your instincts. If you think things don't feel right, get the heck out of Dodge and/or find a group of people to make things a little more public.

As much as it is horrid to say, as long as there are creeps that watch for women who are alone and vulnerable to prey on, remaining alert, ready, and with friends is the best precaution against them, ar least until all of those creeps have beenm caught and had the bits that make them a threat removed.

This might be a good time to bring up a Realistic guide to avoiding rape There are actually other articles as well, but the main theme here is not to blame the victim but to note that there are ways of avoiding being attacked. It is a very informative read
 
This might be a good time to bring up a Realistic guide to avoiding rape There are actually other articles as well, but the main theme here is not to blame the victim but to note that there are ways of avoiding being attacked. It is a very informative read

In college orientation, the girl students all had to attend a seminar discussing rape prevention, and they had a lot of great tips (though granted, most of them I was aware of) on how to make yourself more safe. As others have pointed out, most of these tips weren't just applicable to women looking to decrease their risk of rape, but to all people of any gender just to be more safe in general. It is perfectly appropriate to advise any person on VALID personal safety tips.


None of these tips included things like "not sending out signals that you want sex." Because as Hans pointed out so well, ANYTHING can be taken as such. There was more than one occassion where I was dating a boy, we kissed for the first time, and he immediately propositioned me for sex after one kiss. At the time I was a religious Catholic so I made a point of dressing rather conservatively when on dates just because I had a higher value on modesty at that time. Then, when I rebuked him, there was no attampt at rape, but he did accuse me if being a tease and leading him on. Apparently, me even going on a date with this boy and letting him kiss me goodnight afterwards was interpreted as me telling him I wanted to immediately have sex with him.

And of course, even if one is blatantly demonstrating one's sexuality, that doesn't mean they want to have sex with YOU whenever YOU want it. I don't believe most men feel they have an open invitation to have sex with a porn star upon seeing her in real life, even though having sex is what she does for a living.
 
Deluded doesn't even begin to cover it. Does this guy honestly watch the Oscars and, seeing Angelina Jolie in a flimsy gown with Brad Pitt, think that "most men" will think this means Angelina Jolie wants to have sex with them?


Are you saying . . . she doesn't?
 
- he has data even in his lifetime, and indeed within his fourty years of journalism, that it doesn't work that way. Skirt lengths steadily reduced through the 60's and early 70's, until really they couldn't go any shorter, and then there was a sudden return into fashion of midi and maxi skirts.
Just how old is this asshat?
 
And of course, even if one is blatantly demonstrating one's sexuality, that doesn't mean they want to have sex with YOU whenever YOU want it. I don't believe most men feel they have an open invitation to have sex with a porn star upon seeing her in real life, even though having sex is what she does for a living.
Not sure about "most", but I suspect there is a large number of men who, upon seeing a porn star in real life, would feel they have an invitation to offer her money for sex -- and be insulted/confused if she refused. Which is still very far from automatically raping her.
 
What it says about men is fairly horrible as well, though. It's saying that by having a Y chromosome, I can never be trusted, that those around me should essentially treat me at all times as a secual predator, a beast that can't be trusted, and that in all their dealings with me they should be prepared for the possibility that I'm about to snap and commit monstrous violations upon them. I'm fairly offended by that.

I have to agree with this. I'm very trustworthy on this count, and he seems to say I'm not.
 
Just how old is this asshat?

Depends - are you referring to his body or his brain?


I submit they're totally different ages. Very rarely do I actually hope ill will on someone, but I feel pretty comfortable hoping this idiot loses all 10 fingers in an unfortunate accident.
 

Back
Top Bottom