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Worst Rape Apologist Editorial Ever

This pillock represents my gender very, very poorly. I really don't think there exists a man who is unable to control himself in the presence of exposed female flesh, there may, however, be men that don't want to. Of course, I'm just guessing at this point.
I recall a certain male on this forum from couple years ago. Judging from his posts, he COULD control himself in the presence of attractive female, but really did not like the effort and preferred not to be around attractive females, as the whole process was too tortuous for him. Moreover, he did not believe that any heterosexual men are any different from him. Basically he did not believe that non-sexual friendship between a woman and a straight man is possible.
 
I recall a certain male on this forum from couple years ago. Judging from his posts, he COULD control himself in the presence of attractive female, but really did not like the effort and preferred not to be around attractive females, as the whole process was too tortuous for him. Moreover, he did not believe that any heterosexual men are any different from him. Basically he did not believe that non-sexual friendship between a woman and a straight man is possible.

I remember a similar discussion I was involved in. Probably the same one.

Whoever it was, I recall, was all in favour of defending his daughter's honour with a gun whether she liked it or not. Lovely chappie.
 
Not sure about "most", but I suspect there is a large number of men who, upon seeing a porn star in real life, would feel they have an invitation to offer her money for sex -- and be insulted/confused if she refused. Which is still very far from automatically raping her.

I worded that without much clarity, but what I meant was that I don't believe most men would assume that being a porn star automatically indicates sexual consent with any man and that, upon seeing a porn star, he could proceed to immediately having sex with her without so much as a proposition first.
 
Well, IIRC according to one study, men consistently and vastly overrate how attractive they are to potential mates.

Also, it seems that everyone overestimates how interested everyone else is in casual sex. Though probably the biggest WTH being not the case of men overestimating how OK women are with sex with a stranger, but women grossly overestimating how much more OTHER women are interested in it than they rated themselves. Source, for example: http://www.epjournal.net/filestore/EP08390404.pdf

It's only about college, but still worth a WTH seeing stuff rated an average -3 to -4 for how ok one would be with something, yet +3 to +4 for other women.

So, anyway, yeah, a pornstar probably wouldn't be interested in sex with EVERYONE, but I bet she'd be totally interested in sex with ME ;)
 
In society we as intelligent beings that can make choices agree to not force others to do things they do not want to do.

Anyone who forces another person to do something they do not want to do is fully to blame. FACT.

Now what follows does not change that fact.

Various people have differing capabilities to control there behavior: FACT. We all know this and we see it in every facet of societal life. Obesity, obsession, rudeness, addiction to behaviors ect ect ect.

If I paint a sign red, it gets more attention than if I pain the sign light blue:FACT.
If I wear a meat poncho running through a pride of lions I would wager I would have a greater chance of being eaten than if I did not: extreme example.

The real conclusion here is that anyone who wants to take precautions against gaining the attention of people who either may not be able to control themselves, or that just do not want to control themselves can do so, or not do so independent of the blame associated with the offender.

Criminals regardless of why they engage in the outlawed behaviors look for certain characteristics in there marks: Fact.

We can disagree on what those characteristics are, but we cannot disagree that they engage in this line of thinking, there are far too many examples of this to disregard.

It shocks me that this is a challenge to understand, or to separate the facts from the blame.

The lion analogy works for people who have the mental incapability to control their behaviors, however does not for those that can, however if you do not meet the criteria for the attacker to feel you are a suitable mark you will not be engaged.

If you are a beggar with no money and the robber only cares about money, he will not try to steal from you as you do not meet his criteria.

However if if the attackers criteria is just for someone weak to attack, the beggar now is a near perfect mark.

Nothing about apologetics are involved in these assessments, to introduce such is missing the facts.


BTW the article was poorly written and did not make clear these distinctions. I did not get the impression the author had a good handle on this, as I have also got the impression many of the posters in this thread also do not understand clearly the distinctions between blame (societal acceptance of fault), and the factual criteria of predator type behaviors (that which excites a predator to attack)

One can both understand the attackers motivations, adapt ourselves to minimize the interactions with the attackers desires, and also fully blame the attacker for the attack if it does occur. No contradictions whatsoever.
 
The real conclusion here is that anyone who wants to take precautions against gaining the attention of people who either may not be able to control themselves, or that just do not want to control themselves can do so, or not do so independent of the blame associated with the offender.

You'd think so, but every time this discussion comes up someone pointing this out gets called an apologist. One person's realist is another's apologist.
 
If I drive around in a tank, it is less likely someone will road rage on me . . . no . . . yes?
Should I have to drive around in a tank to avoid someone road raging on me? No.

These are two very different questions.
Is it my fault if I get road raged on if I was not driving in a tank? No.

Does that change the fact that people who see a tank on the highway knowing full well it has the capability to destroy them into a fine powder would be less likely to be aggressive against the tank driver? No.

She wasn't dressed slutty when she was attacked.


It may be true for that particular predator that the only meaningful criteria was that she was a women in a place and time that was opportune. In which case no alteration of clothing, or attitude would have prevented it, only not being there at that time and place as a women could have prevented it. Blame however is still firmly with the attacker as in society we all agree the victim did nothing wrong.
 
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Various people have differing capabilities to control there behavior: FACT. We all know this and we see it in every facet of societal life. Obesity, obsession, rudeness, addiction to behaviors ect ect ect.

Yet, the article ignores the fact that the rate of rapists in the general population is infinitesimally small in western societies where opportunity is not much restricted. There is no rape epidemic yet he is advising women to treat all male acquaintances as rapists. That is insulting to 99% of men.

Criminals regardless of why they engage in the outlawed behaviors look for certain characteristics in there marks: Fact.

We can disagree on what those characteristics are

Or, we can look to studies that tell us what they actually are. Care to read some of the studies cited in this thread before saying there is any disagreement on this point?


BTW the article was poorly written and did not make clear these distinctions.

The writing was not the main problem, it was that the author was not trying to reach a logical conclusion. Instead he was trying to appeal to irrational moral standards from a bygone era that has been proven irrelevant and then make recommendations that aren't actually helpful. I think he expressed his views very clearly. Maybe he just failed to express your views.
 
It may be true for that particular predator that the only meaningful criteria was that she was a women in a place and time that was opportune.

If you will read some of the links provided in this thread that is true for the vast majority of attackers.

Blame however is still firmly with the attacker as in society we all agree the victim did nothing wrong.

Well, we've always got that to agree on.
 
Yet, the article ignores the fact that the rate of rapists in the general population is infinitesimally small in western societies where opportunity is not much restricted. There is no rape epidemic yet he is advising women to treat all male acquaintances as rapists. That is insulting to 99% of men. I agree



Or, we can look to studies that tell us what they actually are. Care to read some of the studies cited in this thread before saying there is any disagreement on this point?Not relevant to any of my points, my points never dealt with the actual details that give rise to rape, I am not qualified, nor knowledgeable in regards to those details and thus will not make claims about them, but that they exist is irrefutable.




The writing was not the main problem, it was that the author was not trying to reach a logical conclusion. Instead he was trying to appeal to irrational moral standards from a bygone era that has been proven irrelevant and then make recommendations that aren't actually helpful. I think he expressed his views very clearly. Maybe he just failed to express your views.
He wandered about the issue much like most in this thread without ever forming a distinction between that which stimulates predator behavior, and the blame associated with engaging in that behavior. That was my point in that part of my post. I do not think anything I have said had been refuted at all what so ever. The outrage that anyone could examine, wrong or right, the criteria for stimulating predation and calling that examination apologetic is misplaced.
 
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Criminals regardless of why they engage in the outlawed behaviors look for certain characteristics in there marks: Fact.

We can disagree on what those characteristics are, but we cannot disagree that they engage in this line of thinking, there are far too many examples of this to disregard.

Which of the sited factors in the article do you think were influential in the attacker's choice of victim?
 
Which of the sited factors in the article do you think were influential in the attacker's choice of victim?

Xulld said:
I am not qualified, nor knowledgeable in regards to those details and thus will not make claims about them, but that they exist is irrefutable.

Also the details are too few and the situation too vague for me to even guess. Like I said previously it may very well be true that the only criteria was that she was a women, and that it was an opportune time and place for the attacker, in which case the only way to physically avoid that situation would to just not be there.

I myself am not psychic and I do not believe such a thing exists, and so knowing full well that some attackers do not need criteria I can alter to attack me I carry a gun everywhere I go that I can legally do so.

If nothing else I have a slim chance to react and defend myself from attack. I have made a habit of urging all of my friends and loved ones, female and male alike to do the same.
 
The only actual FACT is that studies have repeatedly shown that in actual rapes most of the time clothing played no role whatsoever, and in fact most of the time the rapist doesn't even remember what the victim was wearing, or that in the overwhelming majority of cases there was no actual action that was construed or remembered as consent, not even eye contact or anything. I don't think trying to present some unsupported postulates as "FACT" can override the reality that it's trying to override actual data with hypotheticals. I'm pretty sure some derivative or version of that is even on the crackpot index.

Plus, just the fact that someone thinks that their prejudice is "FACT" is hardly surprising or relevant. Everyone does. Even the guy blaming the blacks or jews for some conspiracy, also doesn't think that he's prejudiced. He thinks that he's just laying the "FACT"s. And the Saudis who think that a woman is asking for sex if she runs out of a burning building without a scarf on, also don't think "man, we know we're wrong, but let's spew the canned BS anyway." They too think that their BS is absolute "FACT". Welcome to reality. Far from being an excuse, if Dan Rottenberg thinks that his prejudiced BS is "FACT" -- and that's what you're trying to tell me, right? -- that's actually what's damning, not what makes it OK.

Plus even hypotheticals can only get one so far when it's blaming something someone wore in America for what happened to her in Egypt. Even the usual rationalizations about what excites a predator and makes him lose control, usually stick to stuff that's happened in the very short term and supposedly caused a temporary lapse of judgment. Not on stuff that happened last year and outside the perp's sight or knowledge.

Additionally, it's hard for me to take the article as laying the "FACT"s, when, had he had even the most superficial interest in actually learning about the case he discusses before laying the canned talking points, he'd have plainly seen that his canned BS doesn't match what happened there. But, I guess, checking the story first must have gotten out of fashion with journalists these days.

For an article that purports to talk about Lara Logan, and even is adorned by her photo, absolutely none of his advice or spin actually matches what happened there. And the anecdotes he juxtaposes it with, also don't match it at all.

Even that photo of hers, it's trivial to show that it played no role, if one just engages the brain for a couple of minutes. The assault began when someone shouted that she's a Jew from Israel, which she isn't. They didn't actually even know who she is, or what TV station she's working for, or they'd have known that that's not the case. So HOW was that photo showing cleavage supposed to play any role, when the perps didn't even know who she is?

That's not laying any facts, it's just reaching for the canned blame. He had to rehash the usual "it's because of what you wore" BS blame, even if it doesn't apply at all.

In fact I'd say you can't even get a much better indication that someone is just rehashing canned prejudice, than seeing that kind of disconnect between the incident and what they blame it on.

To reuse your ponchos and lions, it's like someone giving a speech about not wearing meat ponchos around lions to someone who was mauled by a bear at the zoo, while not wearing any poncho.
 
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Also the details are too few and the situation too vague for me to even guess. Like I said previously it may very well be true that the only criteria was that she was a women, and that it was an opportune time and place for the attacker, in which case the only way to physically avoid that situation would to just not be there.

I myself am not psychic and I do not believe such a thing exists, and so knowing full well that some attackers do not need criteria I can alter to attack me I carry a gun everywhere I go that I can legally do so.

If nothing else I have a slim chance to react and defend myself from attack. I have made a habit of urging all of my friends and loved ones, female and male alike to do the same.

Offering up advice on passive self defence while at the same time freely admitting that you have no ideas what behaviours might attract attack seems extremely irresponsible.

If you don't know what factors effect the chances of attack, what is it that you urge your friends to do?
 
Offering up advice on passive self defence while at the same time freely admitting that you have no ideas what behaviours might attract attack seems extremely irresponsible.

If you don't know what factors effect the chances of attack, what is it that you urge your friends to do?

Non sequitur.

I do not need to know the motivations of a burglar to take action to prevent my home from being burglarized.

That such criteria exist for the motivations of the burglar proves my first point without having to detail the actual criteria, same with any kind of attacker.

Clearly from my perspective it is the wrong way to go about protecting yourself by trying to determine all possible motivations of all attackers and then changing your behavior to accommodate. Right or wrong this approach does not equal apologizing for rapists: my second point.

That does not change the fact that a person armed is a person able to defend themselves from all kinds of attackers no matter the motivations.

... studies have repeatedly shown that in actual rapes most of the time clothing played no role whatsoever
This reinforces my points rather than undermining them. There exists criteria, and it IS possible to change behavior to avoid meeting that criteria, even if this is the wrong approach, it does not equal apologizing for rapists, it is merely acknowledging that such criteria exists and then rightly or wrongly trying to determine what that criteria is, and changing your behavior to not match. This is accepted for all other behaviors, but when it comes to rape this misplaced outrage seems to be the norm.

They too think that their BS is absolute "FACT". Welcome to reality. Far from being an excuse, if Dan Rottenberg thinks that his prejudiced BS is "FACT" -- and that's what you're trying to tell me, right?
Not at all, and you having said this makes me question if you have read my posts with a rational objective approach devoid of the emotional outrage typical of this topic.

Use bold fonts.
I only used the bold font to avoid having to pick apart your quotes of my quotes. It made it easier to respond to your paragraphs. That you find that objectionable makes me question your motives.
 
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Yet, the article ignores the fact that the rate of rapists in the general population is infinitesimally small in western societies where opportunity is not much restricted. There is no rape epidemic yet he is advising women to treat all male acquaintances as rapists. That is insulting to 99% of men.

Nearly 20% of women have been victims of rape/attemped rape.
http://www.resurrectionafterrape.org/media/Just how many women are raped.pdf

Sounds like an epidemic to me.
 

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