“Woke”

[d4m10n]

Why this has nothing to do with either of your examples is that other people will now assume we mean one thing when we use the word, when we actually mean another.

One group of people originate the usage or phrase ________ but then another group (generally opposed to the first) uses the term to mean something else, and now it's okay to assume the second group gets to say what the word or phrase should henceforth be taken to mean?

You can fill in the blank here with any phrase, like "cancel culture" or "stay woke" or "fake news," but in every case the progressives seem to willingly cede ground to their conservative critics.

 

[arthwollipot]

One group of people originate the phrase __________ but then another group (generally opposed to the first) uses the term to mean something else, and now it's okay to assume the second group are the arbiters of what the phrase should henceforth be taken to mean?

You can fill in the blank here with any phrase, like "cancel culture" or "stay woke" or "fake news," but in every case the progressives seem to willingly cede ground.

You say this as though we have any choice in the matter.

 

[d4m10n]

Yes, I do.

 

[wareyin]

Heyyyy. That sounds suspiciously like Woke is the New Dogwhistle for Black. LoL

In case this has still eluded your comprehension, "woke" is the dogwhistle for anything conservatives don't like. Examples in thread have included Cracker Barrel (a southern chain restaurant known for not being heart healthy as well as discriminatory hiring practics) being "woke" because they offered plant based sausages in addition to their normal meat parts unknown sausages, Disney's black little mermaid, a Dr. for not turning away trans patients requesting mastectomies, etc. The author of the article you can't comprehend more than the basics of specifically also mentioned recycling, in addition to "literally anything that even hinted at possessing a sliver of social consciousness."

Nobody cares about Black Hobbits or Mermaids it's all fake news. Cast for diversity and your show fails? Just make a few quick calls to sympathetic newspapers citing a few idiots on Twitter and suddenly you have yourself a viral marketing campaign that all the good white liberals will eat right up like it's tofu. Then they'll brag about seeing it multiple times and how it's the best show out there so nobody will think they're a racist. It's brilliant really.

Let's just pretend that conservatives on this forum never complained about black hobbits, shall we?

 

[wareyin]

One group of people originate the usage or phrase ________ but then another group (generally opposed to the first) uses the term to mean something else, and now it's okay to assume the second group gets to say what the word or phrase should henceforth be taken to mean?

You can fill in the blank here with any phrase, like "cancel culture" or "stay woke" or "fake news," but in every case the progressives seem to willingly cede ground to their conservative critics.

For the sake of argument, let's pretend your crusade to preserve the definition of "woke" is being made in good faith. How do you propose we do that? How shall we correct the conservative usage, which is actually by far the vast majority of current usage?




(Watch d4m10n ignore the questions to focus on some nit or other in 3....2...)

 

[Stout]

In case this has still eluded your comprehension, "woke" is the dogwhistle for anything conservatives don't like. Examples in thread have included Cracker Barrel (a southern chain restaurant known for not being heart healthy as well as discriminatory hiring practics) being "woke" because they offered plant based sausages in addition to their normal meat parts unknown sausages, Disney's black little mermaid, a Dr. for not turning away trans patients requesting mastectomies, etc. The author of the article you can't comprehend more than the basics of specifically also mentioned recycling, in addition to "literally anything that even hinted at possessing a sliver of social consciousness."

We're talking about the article not being what the title says it was, remember? "Don't judge a book by it's cover" and all that. So what if the article mentions recycling, that's presented as ancient history and the anything that hinted as a social consciousness is describing how the right sometimes uses it. The whole gist of the article is exactly what's written on the tin. Your issue is with Damon Young and how he titled and wrote his article.

 

[d4m10n]

For the sake of argument, let's pretend your crusade to preserve the definition of "woke" is being made in good faith. How do you propose we do that?

Just don't stop using a term just because "it now tastes foul in our mouths," having been manhandled by gross people and thereby infected with memetic cooties. I know the purity/pollution instinct runs deep and is tied into moral reasoning, but it's silly to give up on phrases or symbols just because some nasty people have used them as well.

How shall we correct the conservative usage, which is actually by far the vast majority of current usage?

It is possible that your highlighted claim is correct, but I've no way of knowing and haven't seen any evidence yet. I mostly imbibe ordinary, mainstream media such as the New York Times, where the journalists apparently have no problem unironically using "woke" as shorthand for the progressive side of a range of culture war/social justice issues. See, for example, this transcript from just yesterday.

In case this has still eluded your comprehension, "woke" is the dogwhistle for anything conservatives don't like. Examples in thread have included...a Dr. for not turning away trans patients requesting mastectomies

No conservatives in the loop on that specific example, that was mainstream news reporting on a surgeon who likes to stay woke.

 

[wareyin]

We're talking about the article not being what the title says it was, remember? "Don't judge a book by it's cover" and all that. So what if the article mentions recycling, that's presented as ancient history and the anything that hinted as a social consciousness is describing how the right sometimes uses it. The whole gist of the article is exactly what's written on the tin. Your issue is with Damon Young and how he titled and wrote his article.

It's cute how you want to frame current usage as "ancient history" because you think that's scoring you a point here.

 

[wareyin]

Just don't stop using a term just because "it now tastes foul in our mouths," having been manhandled by gross people and thereby infected with memetic cooties. I know the purity/pollution instinct runs deep and is tied into moral reasoning, but it's silly to give up on phrases or symbols just because some nasty people have used them as well.

Well, that's a rather naïve viewpoint. Don't stop using the word just because currently the overwhelming usage of the word uses the opposite definition? At best clinging to a minor definition used by a tiny minority of writers or speakers is only going to cause confusion outside of very limited spaces. Much more realistically using the word in the original usage gives conservatives an easy reason to dismiss you and your point.

It is possible that your highlighted claim is correct, but I've no way of knowing and haven't seen any evidence yet. I mostly imbibe ordinary, mainstream media such as the New York Times, where the journalists apparently have no problem unironically using "woke" as shorthand for the progressive side of a range of culture war/social justice issues. See, for example, this transcript from just yesterday.

Both usages that I can find in that transcript use "woke" in the conservative sense: specifically questioning whether Democrats are "too woke". You do have a remarkable habit of giving evidence against your claims, I must say.

 

[d4m10n]

Both usages that I can find in that transcript use "woke" in the conservative sense: specifically questioning whether Democrats are "too woke".

The New York Times was surveying a broad representative sample of Latinos, using the term "woke" to denote taking the progressive side on a range of social issues. If that is the "conservative sense" of the term, then I'm just fine with using it in that sense; however, now I'm confused as to what distinguishes it from the "progressive sense" of the term which I cited to way upthread.

Don't stop using the word just because currently the overwhelming usage of the word uses the opposite definition?

You've made this claim twice now. Data?

 

[theprestige]

Form follows function. Once you've set in motion a process that rewards people for seeing systemic injustice in new and unusual places, that rewards people for figuring out that arithmetic is racist, it's too late to try to reclaim the term that describes that process.

"Woke" was invented by progressives, referring to a process invented and carried out by progressives, to recognize and encourage people to discover injustice where none had previously been seen.

Obviously it is good to recognize and address hidden injustices, and ignored injustices. The fundamental principle of "check your privilege" is a good principle, and one which everyone should judiciously apply to themselves.

But wokeness, as envisioned and developed by progressives, creates a perverse incentive to see injustice where none exists. You can't rehabilitate that. All you can do is develop a new, better process, and call it something else.

 

[ahhell]

One group of people originate the usage or phrase ________ but then another group (generally opposed to the first) uses the term to mean something else, and now it's okay to assume the second group gets to say what the word or phrase should henceforth be taken to mean?

You can fill in the blank here with any phrase, like "cancel culture" or "stay woke" or "fake news," but in every case the progressives seem to willingly cede ground to their conservative critics.

Unfortunately, this is just part of how language works, its no different than the euphemism treadmill. All the words for stupid that we aren't allowed to use anymore that once were more or less the medical/scientific/polite words for on the bottom end of the intelligence bell curve.

It's also not that different from the folks who want to sport confederate flags without me assuming they're racist. Go ahead and where a confederate flag pin, just know that most everyone else thinks it means you're a racist.

Go ahead and use woke in the sense it was used 10 years ago. Mostly as a shibboleth mind you. Most everyone else is going to think you mean it in the pejorative sense.

 

[d4m10n]

Unfortunately, this is just part of how language works, its no different than the euphemism treadmill.

Here I stand, athwart the euphemism treadmill, yelling "Stop!"

All the words for stupid that we aren't allowed to use anymore that once were more or less the medical/scientific/polite words for on the bottom end of the intelligence bell curve.

Well at least we now have a surfeit of adjectives for this process of constantly coming up with new terms for the same phenomenon.

It's also not that different from the folks who want to sport confederate flags without me assuming they're racist.

The meaning of the confederate flag has always been "We want the right to discriminate based on race." That's what it meant when flown in the Capitol on January 6th, 2020 and that's also what it meant in November 1861.


Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

 

[Stout]

It's cute how you want to frame current usage as "ancient history" because you think that's scoring you a point here.

Excellent. I'm glad we've managed to come to a consensus and agree that the Black Man wasn't lying when he wrote the title to his article. I'm relieved, I was thinking there might be some subconscious racism going on here.

 

[arthwollipot]

Here I stand, athwart the euphemism treadmill, yelling "Stop!"

Righto, Canute. Let's see how that works out for you.

 

[d4m10n]

I prefer "Cnut" for the sake of anagramming.

 

[Blue Mountain]

One thing I've learned from this thread is the definition of “woke” very much depends on who's using it, and it's useful for identifying the speaker's/writer's political orientation when encountering it. If the person is to the left or perhaps even centre on the political spectrum, the speaker is inferring the thing he or she being described as “woke” is good. If the speaker is on the right, the word is being used as a pejorative and the thing being referred to is perceived as bad.

It's almost exactly the same as how people on the left and right often have opposite perceptions of policies and beliefs. Now we have a handy word both sides can use to accurately describe their feelings on issues!

 

[shuttlt]

One thing I've learned from this thread is the definition of “woke” very much depends on who's using it, and it's useful for identifying the speaker's/writer's political orientation when encountering it. If the person is to the left or perhaps even centre on the political spectrum, the speaker is inferring the thing he or she being described as “woke” is good. If the speaker is on the right, the word is being used as a pejorative and the thing being referred to is perceived as bad.

It's almost exactly the same as how people on the left and right often have opposite perceptions of policies and beliefs. Now we have a handy word both sides can use to accurately describe their feelings on issues!

Is it really that there are two definitions of woke? It's always seemed to me more like the disagreement is whether the thing being described as woke is good and positive or not.

 

[Darat]

One group of people originate the usage or phrase ________ but then another group (generally opposed to the first) uses the term to mean something else, and now it's okay to assume the second group gets to say what the word or phrase should henceforth be taken to mean?
You can fill in the blank here with any phrase, like "cancel culture" or "stay woke" or "fake news," but in every case the progressives seem to willingly cede ground to their conservative critics.

English does not have an official body like French does to decide and set the offical meaning of a word. The meaning of English words is simply how people use the word, there is no ceding of meaning. It has always been best illustrated by the linguistic expert Professor H Dumpty:

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all.”​

The master is usage.

You still get the silliness of those that complain the word "gay" become another word for "homosexual". (The word gay has an interesting history of its own that is often is overlooked by those making that complaint.)

 

[Darat]

One thing I've learned from this thread is the definition of “woke” very much depends on who's using it, and it's useful for identifying the speaker's/writer's political orientation when encountering it. If the person is to the left or perhaps even centre on the political spectrum, the speaker is inferring the thing he or she being described as “woke” is good. If the speaker is on the right, the word is being used as a pejorative and the thing being referred to is perceived as bad.

It's almost exactly the same as how people on the left and right often have opposite perceptions of policies and beliefs. Now we have a handy word both sides can use to accurately describe their feelings on issues!

To quote myself:

I could try.

There are three "real" meanings 1) that originates in the black English speaking culture of the USA, 2) one that has been culturally appropriated from the black English speaking culture of the USA and 3) one which means "them".

As you say it has nowt to do with anything but identifying your tribe or their tribe.