Wizard's Magical Mystery Flight

I thought they didnt do a proper investigation because they knew the cause
The FBI tested the debris for explosives residue. Remember, passengers reported that the hijackers said they had a bomb. No evidence of explosives was found. In addition, some of the many parameters recorded by the FDR that show the plane to be operating normally at the time of impact:

1. Cabin pressure - NORMAL
2. Hydraulics - NORMAL
3. Cargo fire - NORMAL
4. Smoke - NORMAL
5. Engines - RUNNING
6. Engine RPM (N1) 70%
7. Fuel pressure - NORMAL
8. Engine vibration - LO

Please stop and think, Wizard. Don't contort yourself to try to find a way not to believe the facts of the case. These things happened to real people in the real world. Wishing it were otherwise itsn't going to change that.
 
No, they were attempting to overpower the hijackers but that doesn;t eliminate that it was shot down anyway
Let's go over this again:

No foreign explosives signature found on, or within, the wreckage in Shanksville.

Engine wreckage found was not indicative of having been destroyed by a heat-seeking missile.

I'm assuming you've heard the 4-minute compressed version of comms from ATC Cleveland, Flight 93 and other airliners in the vicinity. If you have not: STOP!

Before you go any further you are kindly requested to have a listen:
http://www.airdisaster.com/cvr/atcwav.shtml

Listen early and often.

Notice what's missing? Give up? ATC Cleveland does not mention the existence of military jets in the area. The other airliners don't either.
 
Let's go over this again:

No foreign explosives signature found on, or within, the wreckage in Shanksville.

Engine wreckage found was not indicative of having been destroyed by a heat-seeking missile.

I'm assuming you've heard the 4-minute compressed version of comms from ATC Cleveland, Flight 93 and other airliners in the vicinity. If you have not: STOP!

Before you go any further you are kindly requested to have a listen:
http://www.airdisaster.com/cvr/atcwav.shtml

Listen early and often.

Notice what's missing? Give up? ATC Cleveland does not mention the existence of military jets in the area. The other airliners don't either.

Ok I believe you it wasn't shot down.
 
I'm confused with all these conspiracy theorists around. What do you believe happened on 9/11 Wizard?
 
The lack of debris puzzles me and also the size of the debris field

There have been a number of links and photos posted showing small impact craters and no obvious large aircraft pieces when planes hit the ground at steep angles and high speed. Here's two more examples (there may well be photos and info on line- perhaps someone with the time can research):

Around 1969-70 a B-58 crashed at a very steep angle in an Indiana cornfield near Grissom AFB. There were newspaper photos which I saw, and I personally knew some of the Air Force people who were at the scene (I was on active duty at the time). The impact crater was very similar in size and looks to the Flt 93 crater. And you couldn't tell from the photos that a plane made that hole. They didn't find any pieces much larger than finger sized until they got excavators in and dug down below the bottom of the hole...where they recovered some engine and landing gear parts.

An FB-111 did the same thing in Northeast Vermont back in the 1980's. Aircraft going very fast at a steep angle impacting soft ground leave deep but relatively small holes...and few parts of any size. Simple physics. Anyone still suspicious of the Flight 93 crash scene needs only to talk to an aircraft crash investigator.....
 
Originally Posted by Wizard
Could you find me a case where a plane buries itself underground like Flight 93 is supposed to have done?

Sure, no problem.

Here's another crash site that left virtually no debris behind. It's from AE flight 4184 that crashed in Indiana on October 31st, 1994.

http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/eagle4184/photo.shtml

Note the total lack of any sort of outline indicating where the wings, engines, or tail were. Note the lack of seats, luggage, and passengers.

ETA: How many more photos of crash sites do we need to post before you admit that plane crashes don't have to leave much debris.

Steve S.
 
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One of the most notable things about UA93 is how contained the debris field is. The wides debris scatter was reported as about 8 sq miles - those extreme pieces being bits of paper and very light material.

In contrast, in air incidents where the aircraft breaks up in mid air the debris field routinely covers hundreds of sq miles. In the extreme example of PA103 the debris field covered 843 sq miles.

On the matter of a shootdown, first there is the localised debris field. Second there is the FDR. Thirdly there is the CVR. All of these suggest the aircraft was intact at impact.

I am curious as to Wizard's theory for the details of the shootdown. Was it NORAD performing a successful intercept? Was it an unknown military jet, part of a US govt op to carry out 9/11? If so why did they shoot UA93 down? Was it because the passengers were going to sieze control? If so, who were they siezing control from? CIA operatives? Terrorist patsies? Robert the Robot Pilot?

A more extensive explanation of your theory would be appreciated.

-Gumboot
 
I will concede that for a while I had believed that this flight was shot down, and that from a PR point of view it was considered more palatable to promote a story of the heroism of the passengers than to have the inquisition that would follow a genuine shootdown scenario.

I think I got this impression from an interview I saw chaney do after 9/11 when he describes an interceptor closing in on the plane but the plane crashing before he had to ok a shootdown. I know it was on the BBC but can't recall the actual programme, nor if it is available anywhere online. Such is the power of half remembered media snippets and personal assumptions.

However the evidence of the FDR, telephone calls etc, together with the LACK of a widely distributed debris field confirm for me that the official account is the true account.
 
I will concede that for a while I had believed that this flight was shot down, and that from a PR point of view it was considered more palatable to promote a story of the heroism of the passengers than to have the inquisition that would follow a genuine shootdown scenario.

I think I got this impression from an interview I saw chaney do after 9/11 when he describes an interceptor closing in on the plane but the plane crashing before he had to ok a shootdown. I know it was on the BBC but can't recall the actual programme, nor if it is available anywhere online. Such is the power of half remembered media snippets and personal assumptions.

However the evidence of the FDR, telephone calls etc, together with the LACK of a widely distributed debris field confirm for me that the official account is the true account.


I was much like this. Although I didn't really BELIEVE it had been shot down, I was more than willing to accept that it had. My theory was the Govt intercepted it, then found out after the fact that the passengers had been in the middle of a revolt, so they covered up the shoot down (not surprising, really).

However, as you said, once more available evidence came out (and I'd add the NORAD tapes in that) it was clear UA93 was not shot down.

But this is something CTers don't understand. You start with a wide range of theories, and as you gather more evidence you eliminate them one by one until you are left with one.

The key thing is you evaluate each theory in regards to EVERY piece of evidence, and look for a best fit. There will always be single pieces of evidence that fit multiple theories - indeed some evidence may fit an eliminated theory BETTER than the final one. But you can't look at each piece individually, you have to look at the whole.

CTers see tiny fragments that support this theory or that theory, and ignore the overwhelming majority that contradict it (including other random pieces that support one of their OTHER theories).

This is why CTers, including the "serious researchers" like Lyte Trip, are NOT real investigators.

-Gumboot
 
I had considered a shoot down possible myself - but only until I realized that the government had no real reason to cover one up. The heroes of 93 would still be heroes, al-Qaeda would have been seen as even more villainous than they were, and Bush would have had even my sympathy at that point (and I hate that mofo).

It would have had the same effect as if 93 had hit its target, which I understand to have been the Capitol Building. The strikes show their cunning in New York, where the first strike grabbed everyone's attention so that the second strike could be televised around the world. Then a strike in Washington, DC would have swung attention to that city, and everyone there would have had their cameras out...

...just in time to film United 93 swooping down the Mall and barrelling straight into the Rotunda. That's what the passengers prevented from happening.

Bush could not have been blamed for shooting down United 93. The takeover by the passengers would have been salt in the wound, and played like a trump card by them. There was no cover up of a shoot down.
 
Because i'm a true skeptic and don't accept what the government forcefeed me.
No true Scotsman

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(Redirected from No true scotsman)
No true Scotsman is a term coined by Antony Flew in his 1975 book Thinking About Thinking. It refers to an argument which takes this form:
Argument: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge." Reply: "But my uncle Angus likes sugar with his porridge." Rebuttal: "Ah yes, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge." This form of argument is a fallacy if the predicate ("putting sugar on porridge") is not actually contradictory for the accepted definition of the subject ("Scotsman"), or if the definition of the subject is silently adjusted after the fact to make the rebuttal work.

Source of the fallacy

The truth of a proposition depends on its adequacy to its object ("Is the drawing a true likeness of Antony Flew?"). The truth of an object depends on its adequacy to its concept ("Is the figure drawn on the paper a true triangle?"). Problems arise when the definition of the concept has no generally accepted form, for example when it is vague or contested.
"A true Scotsman" (a concept) is not on the same level as "a true triangle" (a concept) never mind "the true Antony Flew" (a concrete existing object). The formal similarity, "true X", and the corresponding feeling that the concepts should be on the same level, in some sense must be on the same level (even perhaps all exist as objects), motivates the fallacy. It is a short step from that feeling to treating one's own definition of a "true Scotsman" (who else's?) as having the same objectivity as that of a geometrical figure or an existing individual, and then attempting to make the world agree.

Examples

Using the context of culture, individuals of any particular religion, for example, may tend to employ this fallacy. The statement "no true Christian" would do some such thing is often a fallacy, since the term "Christian" is used by a wide and disparate variety of people. This broad nature of the category is such that its use has very little meaning when it comes to defining a narrow property or behaviour. If there is no one accepted definition of the subject, then the definition must be understood in context, or defined in the initial argument for the discussion at hand.
It is also a common fallacy in politics, in which critics may condemn their colleagues as not being "true" Communists, liberals or conservatives because they occasionally disagree on certain matters of policy. It comes in many other forms - "No decent person would" - it is argued "support hanging/watch pornography/smoke in public", etc. Often the speaker seems unaware that he/she is, in fact, coercively (re)defining, 'objectifying', what the phrase "decent person" means to include/exclude what he/she wants and NOT simply following what the phrase is already accepted as meaning. The argument shifts the debate from being about hanging/pornography/smoking and tries to make it seem that anyone disagreeing with the speaker is arguing for the "indecent".
Opponents of Democratic peace theory often perceive it as being a prime example of the fallacy, as they see the definitions of "war", "democracy" and "liberal democracy" as vague and being adjusted, as to make the data fit the hypothesis.

Some elements or actions are clearly contradictory to the subject, and therefore aren't fallacies. The statement "No true vegetarian would eat a beef steak" is not fallacious because it follows from the accepted definition of "vegetarian": Eating meat, by definition, disqualifies a (present-tense) categorization among vegetarians, and the further value judgement between a "true vegetarian" and the implied "false vegetarian" cannot likewise be categorized as a fallacy, given the clear disjunction.

Alternatively, if a statement in the "no true Scotsman" form is not intended as an empirical argument, but as the conclusion to an argument about definition, then it is not a fallacy. It is possible to make formally valid arguments about contested definitions. The statement "No true Marxist would support the Soviet invasion of Hungary because the basic goal of Marxism is the self-emancipation of the working class" may or may not be true, but it is not an instance of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.
Retrieved from "<A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman"[/quote">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman
 
So you say the debris was carried by the wind and boloboffin says it floated on indian lake. Which was it Gravy?
False dilemma

This fallacy typically involves asking a question and providing only two possible answers when there are actually far more. It seems to be a favourite of politicians, especially when trying to win support for a none-too-plausible policy. Take this classic example:
You're either with us or against us.
The implicit argument here is that two possible positions exist with regard to the matter at hand: in favour or opposed. If we are not in favour, then, it follows that we must be opposed; and vice versa. The use of such tactics often give us the opportunity of appreciating fine—if overblown—rhetoric, too, like "do you support this war to defend our way of life or are you a cowardly, treasonous blackguard?" To expose the question as a false dilemma, all we need do is show that an alternative response exits. Other names for the same thing are the black and white fallacy, which immediately calls our attention to the shades of grey that are ignored, or the bifurcation fallacy.

Take another example:
Either you support lowering taxes or you're content to see this country go to hell in short order.
The person presenting such a choice presumably advocates the lowering of taxes and is offering us a choice of two options. Since the second one seems unpalatable, he or she assumes we will lend our support to the policy. Taking the best possible reading of this situation, we might have the following:
P1: We can lower taxes or the country can go to the devil;​

P2: No other options exist;​

C: Therefore, a person not agreeing with lowering taxes is content to see the country fall apart.​
Even this does not precisely address the statement as given; for instance, we could hold no opinion at all on the matter, or be insufficiently informed to do so sensibly. These are alternatives, so the choice given is a false dilemma. In the above formulation we could challenge P2, since it seems unlikely that only one policy has been proposed. A single alternative would again make the choice a false dilemma. As before, this is a fallacy of presumption.
http://www.galilean-library.org/int16.html#false_dilemma
 
Which would serve to support your statement that you have not researched it that much.

I never claimed to have researched it that much. A troll started this thread because i posted one sentence about what gravy had said on a debate.

I do have another question though. Does gravy have a source for his claim that 95% of flight 93 was found?
 
I never claimed to have researched it that much. A troll started this thread because i posted one sentence about what gravy had said on a debate.

I do have another question though. Does gravy have a source for his claim that 95% of flight 93 was found?
Are you just lazy? It took me less than a minute to Google this and find these two news articles on page 2...

FBI finished with Pennsylvania crash site probe
FBI ends site work, says no bomb used

...do you really think he just made it up or something, no wait let me guess you are going to denigrate the source because it's the FBI?

:D
 

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