With a cease-fire like this, who needs war?

[Elind]

Civil discourse.I agree.Retarded people most likely do not read these forums. I have a younger sister with Downs and I try to counter the use of that word as an insult in an effort to replace ridicule with respect in the culture at large. I don't have a problem, but do what you wish.

I'll make an exception to my previous rule about ignoring..

I think you know very well that I mean no insults to people with genuine disabilities, and for that matter I believe that people with Downs Syndrome are probably the kindest and most genuine humans on the planet, but that doesn't change the fact that there are many who don't have disabilities but still act like idiots (THERE IS NO OFFENSE AS YOU ALLUDE TO HERE).

Being PC is not an excuse for avoiding the obvious.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Re: Re: smithereens

Do you think your desire to injure innocent family members of the offenders is common in Britain? I was fairly sure that this attack would bring out people calling for the deaths of innocent people in revenge....I just wasn't expecting to see so much of it on this forum.

Not to condone the killing of family members, but "innocent" is not necessarily an apt description, especially in the case of parents. If you raise a terrorist, that does suggest that perhaps you aren't a responsible citizen.

 

[Elind]

Not about revenge Fool, its about deterrence.

No it's not about deterrence in your case, it's about revenge.

These parents are quite likely (I'm sure we will hear more) stupid suckers for a sorry religious belief, having needed to send their child thousands of miles to learn what they couldn't think to teach; but they will probably suffer plenty for what they created as it is.

Fools they may be, but even the Israelis who suffered more than any from the same degenerate philosophy have decided that punishing the parents for the sins of the child is not worthwhile. Why would you?

On the other hand, if it should turn out that their bank account suddenly receives untraceable funds from grateful admirers; then I'll go with your solution.

 

[a_unique_person]

Re: Re: Re: smithereens

Not to condone the killing of family members, but "innocent" is not necessarily an apt description, especially in the case of parents. If you raise a terrorist, that does suggest that perhaps you aren't a responsible citizen.

Plenty of parents raise drug users, tax dodgers, killers, wife beaters. The nature/nurture debate has never nailed down the specifics, but you can be certain that it is not just the parents who influence your decision making. There are plenty of stories about Palestinian parents who had no idea their children were going to be suicide bombers. That's what you would expect, those who are convincing them to do so, the first thing they would say to their targets, don't tell anyone you know.

 

[demon]

Israeli settlers attempt to lynch Palestinian teenager
The World Today - Friday, 8 July , 2005 12:42:00
Reporter: Mark Willacy
ELIZABETH JACKSON: It's an image which many Israelis say has convinced them to support the Government's plan to pull more than 8,000 Jewish settlers out of the Gaza Strip.

Plastered across Israeli TV screens for the past week have been pictures of settler youths, some as young as 13, stoning and then trying to lynch a teenage Palestinian in a Gaza village...

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2005/s1410086.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Kids eh?
What ya gonna do?

 

[The Fool]

Re: Re: Re: smithereens

Not to condone the killing of family members, but "innocent" is not necessarily an apt description, especially in the case of parents. If you raise a terrorist, that does suggest that perhaps you aren't a responsible citizen.

Does your parental irresponsibility principle apply to all parents of criminals?

 

[webfusion]

No calling for killing...

T-F talks about "the offenders" and what is he referring to? He is using that euphemism for recent suicide attackers in Britain and Israel. That is just amazing. Mass-murderer terrorists are now "the offenders" according to the lexicon of The Fool.

Well, that's cool. It sounds way better than "militants" or "insurgents" ---

From Israel National News:
A booby-trapped car exploded in a West Bank settlement yesterday, apparently as part of a failed suicide bombing. Only the offender who drove the car was injured.

 

[Elind]

Re: Re: Re: Re: smithereens

Plenty of parents raise drug users, tax dodgers, killers, wife beaters. The nature/nurture debate has never nailed down the specifics, but you can be certain that it is not just the parents who influence your decision making. There are plenty of stories about Palestinian parents who had no idea their children were going to be suicide bombers. That's what you would expect, those who are convincing them to do so, the first thing they would say to their targets, don't tell anyone you know.

That's true enough, but in the case of Palestinians it's not a matter of parents slipping up as it were, but a matter of daily bombardment of propaganda from their so called government whose TV, Newspapers and more regularly glorify the martyrs who murder by suicide and the mothers who produce as many as possible of the same. That's almost a no win situation for those who would like things to be different for their children.

However in the case of the parents in the UK, they obviously instilled no sense of citizenship in their children, to the extent in at least one case of sending them to a fundamentalist society to learn how not to assimilate.

They are guilty of poor citizenship and poor parenting and poor judgement, and poor loyalty but, at least on the surface, not necessarily of maliciousness. They do not however appear to belong in the UK.

 

[zenith-nadir]

PA promises 'Protocols' ammendment - Jul. 14, 2005

Following The Jerusalem Post's report Tuesday that Palestinian textbooks contained references to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as an "integral part" of Zionist history, the Palestinian Authority has promised to remove the mention from future textbooks.

"The Palestinians Minister [of Education Naim Abu al-Humos] said that it was a mistake that would be immediately corrected," said a spokesman for the Belgian Ministry of Development speaking to the Post by telephone.

"They apologized and said they would report to us where the reference originated."

The Protocols are a fabricated document purporting to disclose the secret plans of a Jewish conspiracy for world domination.

The Belgian government, which has funded the books since 2000, was scheduled to end its funding this year. The textbooks were originally funded by Italy, Finland, and the Netherlands. However, this year's books only credited "Arab nations" and the Belgium government for funding.

"A lot of what appears in the Palestinian textbooks in regards to the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion' and the lack of the existence of Israel on any map feeds into the incitement that the Palestinian Authority promised to put an end to," said a senior official in the Prime Minister's Office. "This is another example of steps not taken [as part of] stage one roadmap obligations."

"The mention of the 'Protocols' is indeed wrong and the Belgian government recognizes the 'Protocols' as an anti-Semitic document," said the Belgian spokesman.

What are palestinian children being taught in school? No maps of Israel in Palestinian school books, Protocols of the Elders of Zion in Palestinian school books - funded by the E.U. What you have is a total failure to apply the principles and concepts - of religious tolerance - to include Jews and the State of Israel. You are dealing with a society whos leaders have chosen to include inciteful content in school books. Truely the lowest of the low.

 

[Darat]

What are palestinian children being taught in school? No maps of Israel in Palestinian school books, Protocols of the Elders of Zion in Palestinian school books - funded by the E.U. What you have is a total failure to apply the principles and concepts - of religious tolerance - to include Jews and the State of Israel. You are dealing with a society whos leaders have chosen to include inciteful content in school books. Truely the lowest of the low.

As an aside: according to the quote you used the books were not funded by the EU.

Have you any links that show the books and the maps that are in them? I can understand that they do not show disputed land as "Israel" (I understand because I’ve seen other examples of similar mindset at work – for example Cypriot maps that do not recognise the partition of Cyprus) however given the circumstances it does seem that some attempt to show the existing enforced borders on a map even with big "in dispute" all over it would be a better approach to try and educate youngsters.

As for including the "Protocols..." that is just inexcusable (unless it is in a history lesson context to talk about anti-semitism).

Out of curiosity what do Israel school book maps show as Palestine? Perhaps the Israeli solution to marking “disputed” land would be a better approach?

 

[zenith-nadir]

As an aside: according to the quote you used the books were not funded by the EU.

I stand corrected, just Belgium, Italy and the Holland.

Have you any links that show the books and the maps that are in them?

Yes. The Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace catalogs the contents of Palestinian Authority schoolbooks.

I can understand that they do not show disputed land as "Israel" (I understand because I’ve seen other examples of similar mindset at work – for example Cypriot maps that do not recognise the partition of Cyprus) however given the circumstances it does seem that some attempt to show the existing enforced borders on a map even with big "in dispute" all over it would be a better approach to try and educate youngsters.

Allow me to provide you with some evidence, first from the article I linked;

"A lot of what appears in the Palestinian textbooks in regards to the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion' and the lack of the existence of Israel on any map feeds into the incitement that the Palestinian Authority promised to put an end to," said a senior official in the Prime Minister's Office.

Secondly from a CMIP Executive Summary of the Palestinian Authority schoolbooks:

The tendency to ignore Israel as a sovereign state continues. Accordingly, Israel's name does not appear on any map. Moreover, some of the maps refer to the whole country as Palestine and Israeli cities and geographical sites are presented as Palestinian., The Palestinian Authority, however, unlike Israel, is referred to as an independent state.

And lastly:

The investigation, led by Noah Meridor, from the liaison office, examined 23 such books. It revealed "systematic education to delegitimize the existence of the State of Israel, fanning the flames of hatred and violent revenge to destroy the country." The books express a lack of recognition of Israel, not even according to the 1967 borders, alongside adamant claims to Palestinian rule of all the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. link

The schoolbooks that the Palestinian Authority uses to teach palestinian children do not have Israel on the maps. This has been known for years.

As for including the "Protocols..." that is just inexcusable (unless it is in a history lesson context to talk about anti-semitism).

Trust me, the Palestinian Authority does not give classes in "anti-semitism".

Out of curiosity what do Israel school book maps show as Palestine? Perhaps the Israeli solution to marking “disputed” land would be a better approach?

The CMIP did reports on Israeli school books as well. You can find the report here.

This isn't new news. This has been known for years and years but everyone is too busy dragging Israel into court over a wall to stop suicide bombers....perhaps this lesson on what Palestinian children are taught in school by their leaders enlightens some JREFers as to why Israel has a need for a wall to stop suicide bombers.

 

[kimiko]

I'll make an exception to my previous rule about ignoring..

I think you know very well that I mean no insults to people with genuine disabilities, and for that matter I believe that people with Downs Syndrome are probably the kindest and most genuine humans on the planet, but that doesn't change the fact that there are many who don't have disabilities but still act like idiots (THERE IS NO OFFENSE AS YOU ALLUDE TO HERE).

Being PC is not an excuse for avoiding the obvious.

What obviousness would that be? That repeated insults are secretly not supposed to be insulting? That caring what words like "retarded" communicate is somehow a ridiculous sentiment to be diminished as PC? That the hundreds of times I've heard the word used to insult people, this time it was just an innocent substitution for idiot?

So right after such gems as "your pitiful position", "Apologist personified is what you are", and "You represent what I mean by wimps", a slur is somehow not supposed to be interpreted in the same offensive spirit?

It's just terribly interesting that discussing terrorism dispassionately is assumed to be apologism for terrorists but slurs don't mean any kind of offense. Interesting, and completely nonsensical.

 

[kimiko]

Of course, doing nothing also carries a high likelihood of civilians dying. It seems to me that your wording implied that Israel the civilan deaths are part of the retaliation, rather than a consequence of it. So does the fact that there are some cases in which an arrest is feasible show that it is feasible in all cases? First of all, you seem to be saying "Some of Israel's responses do deserve criticism, therefore it is legitimate to tell Israel not to have any response". Secondly, while the responses of Israel are different, the threat that it faces is also different.

I was only commenting on the comparison of British to Israeli reactions to terror, nothing else. It's not valid to compare justified admonitions against responses that could exacerbate tensions to the lack of the same for Britain, when Britain doesn't use those kinds of responses, and draw some conclusion of a double standard.

 

[The Fool]

Re: No calling for killing...

T-F talks about "the offenders" and what is he referring to? He is using that euphemism for recent suicide attackers in Britain and Israel. That is just amazing. Mass-murderer terrorists are now "the offenders" according to the lexicon of The Fool.

Well, that's cool. It sounds way better than "militants" or "insurgents" ---

From Israel National News:
A booby-trapped car exploded in a West Bank settlement yesterday, apparently as part of a failed suicide bombing. Only the offender who drove the car was injured.

Is the winner the one that can thump his chest the hardest? Find the nastiest name for murderers? Its not a euphemism web its a legal term for the person that did the crime.

If These things could be fixed by chest thumping and grandstanding and threatening the offenders family I'd consider doing it too.

 

[The Fool]

As an aside: according to the quote you used the books were not funded by the EU.

Darat.
If you are interested in the topic of Palestinian schoolbooks ZN is probably not the best source for ballanced material.

Here is a piece by Nathan J. Brown, Professor of Political Science and International Affairs, The George Washington University. It is, in my opinion, a well considered and informative lecture.

http://www.geocities.com/nathanbrown1/Georg_Eckert.htm

 

[Elind]

It's just terribly interesting that discussing terrorism dispassionately is assumed to be apologism for terrorists but slurs don't mean any kind of offense. Interesting, and completely nonsensical.

You don't discuss terrorism dispassionately. You defend them against insults on the grounds that someone else might be indirectly offended, and in fact you appear to dispute the existence of terrorism as anything other than common criminal behaviour. Then you invite the same insult onto yourself, by your own words, on the basis that you disagree with the original insult which was not directed at you.

Talk about contorted self righteous thinking.

Be my guest. Be insulted.

 

[Darat]

Please remember your Membership Agreements and what this section of the forum is supposed to be used for.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat

 

[webfusion]

Call 'em as I see 'em

That Nathan Brown lecture is "an oldy and a moldy" from three years ago --

Dialogue about textbooks is not going to resolve all the deep issues dividing Israelis and Palestinians. There is little doubt that the determination and leadership necessary for a peaceful settlement does not exist now in Israel, in Palestine, and—to be fair in my harshness—in the United States. I think the most that we can hope to do is to lay the groundwork so that when calmer voices prevail, they will find the path we now lay out in front of them.

Keep hoping, Mr Brown. Hope springs eternal.
In the meantime, the IDF will continue to pursue their mission to eliminate the offenders (and potential offenders) among the Palestinians who are openly violating (and intend to violate) the cease-fire and who are attempting to thwart any and all efforts to resolve the deep dividing issues.

• NABLUS, West Bank - Israel Defense Forces soldiers killed a Palestinian offender early Thursday as he was hiding in the home of a 60-year-old female British national who had taken up residence in this West Bank city, witnesses said.
  The IDF Spokesperson said the woman is a "left-wing activist who has been assisting wanted offenders in the town. Alasi was hiding at the woman's apartment with another offender, Matzem Aal, who was arrested by troops."
  
  Local witnesses said IDF soldiers broke into the house where Mohammed Alasi, 28, a local leader of the Islamic Jihad, was 'talking to' the woman. Alasi tried to flee, but soldiers shot him dead and took his body, they said.
  
  According to the army, Alasi was behind many attempts to send teenage suicide bombers to carry out attacks in Israel.

===========================
More cease-fire violations in the news:
*** Qassam rocket was fired at a residential area in the southern Israeli town of Sderot Thursday morning.
*** Mortar shell was also fired at a Gush Katif settlement predawn on Thursday.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

FIVE.

The death toll from the suicide attack in Netanya has risen to five, as Moshe Maor Jan, 21, died in hospital from his wounds. He and his wife were critically injured when an offender blew himself up at the pedestrian crossing in front of a Netanya shopping mall. Jan's wife, who is eight months pregnant, is still in hospital.

Just to keep the record straight...

 

[zenith-nadir]

Woman killed in Kassam attack outside Gaza Strip (JP) - Thursday Jul. 14, 2005

An Israeli woman in her early 20s was killed when a Kassam rocket scored a direct hit on a home in the Netiv Ha'asara kibbutz, just north of the Gaza Strip, on Thursday afternoon.

A total of four Kassams landed in Netiv Ha'asara, located about a kilometer outside of the Gaza Strip.

Another four hit the kibbutz of Nahal Oz, near the Karni crossing.

But you wanna know the kicker?

Hamas say still committed to truce - (JP) - Jul. 14, 2005

Hamas' political leader Khaled Mashaal said Thursday that his group and other Palestinian factions were still committed to a truce agreed upon with Israel, despite a suicide bombing outside a shopping mall in the Israeli resort town of Netanya on Tuesday that killed five people.

But he warned in an interview with The Associated Press that continued Israeli violations might renew confrontations and end the four-month-old cease-fire.

"Israel is provoking the Palestinian factions to force them to break the truce," Mashaal said.

The Palestinian terrorists are "committed to truce" eventhough they are sending suicide bombers and rockets into Israel. Meanwhile no one is being arrested or stopped by the Palestinian Authority.

Welcome to negotiating with Palestinians 101.

 

[Cleon]

But you wanna know the kicker?The Palestinian terrorists are "committed to truce" eventhough they are sending suicide bombers and rockets into Israel. Meanwhile no one is being arrested or stopped by the Palestinian Authority.

Welcome to negotiating with Palestinians 101.

Was Hamas responsible for those attacks? I seem to recall Islamic Jihad claiming responsibility. Could be wrong, though.