With a cease-fire like this, who needs war?

[The Fool]

Re: Where to put them?

To clarify:

I personally would like for the Palestinians to remain right where they are and develop their new nation to be productive and neighborly.

I know that they have this capability. I know that the majority of the Palestinians wish nothing more than to live in peace. I know that Islam is being perverted into something that we all are very concerned about, in all the countries that we JREF'ers are living in. Just read these boards, and see the anguish. This thread alone has 17 pages and over 5500 views. We all followed the thread of the London bomb atrocity. Nearly 6000 views, with nine pages of comments.

I opened a thread about the Space Shuttle mission and not one person had a comment. Why? Because those orbital missions have no appreciable effect on our lives.
Terror does.

Let me be perfectly clear:
Israeli society is a mingling of jew, muslim, christian, circassian, bah'ai, mormon, rastafarian, whatever...
Israelis don't relish the thought of dispossesing the Palestinians. It is not a national goal. Israelis by and large are doing what they can to join together with the Palestinians and help them form a democracy that works.
Israel has been trying to do that for decades, even giving their arch-enemy Yassir Arafat the rare opportunity to bring about a change in that direction.
Heck, it nearly succeeded! Who knows what might have been if Rabin was not murdered? But, that was then, this is now.

"The occupation" of 1967 came about because Israel had one thing and one thing only in mind --- to prevent the arabs from going ahead with what they had proclaimed they were going to do:
Wipe those Jews off the Face of the Earth.

And, in 1973, the same violent mentality reared it's ugly head on Yom Kippur, while the entire nation of the jews was fasting and reflecting in silence on their personal fates in the eyes of god. That was the October day that the arabs chose to destroy the jews, to once again open a total war of annihilation; to finish once and for all the 'solution' begun by adolph hitler just 3 decades prior.

The idea of settling the territories was simple:
Why are the hills off-limits to the jews? Why should the jews be excluded from land which had been theirs from time immemorial? It was not arab land, except by conquest of the Omayyads and the Ottomans.

So, the jews returned to living on their land. Exactly as they had done in Haifa, in Tel Aviv, in Be'er Sheva, in Eilat, in Nazareth, in Tiberias, in Ashkelon, in Ashdod, in Nahariyya.

Look at Gaza. Look at the villages the jews have built there. Oasis of peaceful and prosperous life. Yet, because they are jews, they came under attack. It is a familiar story. This has not changed in 120 years. Look at the history of nomadic marauders and arab fedayyin who constantly terrorized the jews.
And in less than four weeks, a retreat from this good life is going to happen. It is being done in the face of severe opposition & in fact, the possibility of civil war is not being taken lightly.

If the arabs think this is a sign of weakness, and they wish to test the mettle of the Israelis during this process, I wish them all the best of luck.

One thing that will quickly unite all of Israel is the need to defend themselves in the face of an onslaught of ballistic missiles and mortars and suicide bombers.

And the Gaza Strip might become an empty patch of sand dunes, that is a very realistic assessment under those circumstances.

Where will the arabs go?
Oh, they'll find their way.
24 arab nations will have themselves some new guests.

web
you describe Israeli society as " a mingling of jew, muslim, christian, circassian, bah'ai, mormon, rastafarian, whatever..." yet for the rest of the post you refer to Israel as "the jews" you also claim that Palestinians attack Gaza settlements "because they are jews" you ask why "the hills are off limits to jews".....and on and on it goes.

I think your substitution of "jews" for israelis has a definite purpose. Its purpose is to lay the blame for the way things are on anti-semitism, rather than a long history of conflict over less purely theological things....like land and water and the Palestinians seeing the Israelis as the personification of a long line of european colonial oppressors and the Israelis seeing the palestinians as the personification of a long line of anti-semitic oppressors.... Israelis are not the french and british they are not the crusaders...they want to live in peace in this land. The Palestinians are not the Nazi germans...

A question I have asked many times before is this...What if israel was the home of the Mormans and the Jewish homeland was Utah? Do you imagine that Palestinians would be dancing and drinking with Israelis and blowing up people in Utah?

Common history, common land, common heritage and sometimes, I fear, common bad attitudes to other people...Some of your posts here in this thread remind me of Hamas rants. I understand the rage and frustration and feelings of revenge but....in the end, Niether Palestinians nor israelis are going to go away so I think your fantasy solution of the Palestinians conveniently disappearing is not going to happen.

All possible results are going to include palestinians and Israelis living in "Palestine" How you carve this land up and what you call the pieces will either be just to all or conflict will continue.

Military victory is not possible. Do you imagine that any amount of "military defeat" could cause Israelis to give up and leave, or accept second class citizenship in a foriegn state?? Why do you imagine Palestinians are any different?

 

[Mycroft]

Re: Re: Where to put them?

Originally posted by The Fool
A question I have asked many times before is this...What if israel was the home of the Mormans and the Jewish homeland was Utah? Do you imagine that Palestinians would be dancing and drinking with Israelis and blowing up people in Utah?l

I think they would likely hate the Mormons just as much, but what does that prove? Genocidal xenophobia directed at non-Jews is just as bad as genocidal anti-Semitism. The point is they're hated because they're different.

 

[The Fool]

Re: Re: Re: Where to put them?

I think they would likely hate the Mormons just as much, but what does that prove? Genocidal xenophobia directed at non-Jews is just as bad as genocidal anti-Semitism. The point is they're hated because they're different.

Thats right...so why don't Palestinians hate Mormans, they are still "different" are they not?

Palestinians who hate Israelis would hate israelis whatever version of paranormal super being they subscribe to....because we are jewish?...whats that all about?

There is hatred because of a long long history of conflict....it wouldn't matter if israelis were Jews, mormons, catholics or hindus. It would not matter if Palestinians were muslims, christians....I was almost ready to type Jews then.. but realised if they were jews it would be problem over wouldn't it.....law of return and all that....

Hatred is not anything to do with some nebulous "they are different" its because of what "they have done" on both sides.... I've never seen you try to suggest Israelis have a problem with palestinians simply because they are muslim.

 

[webfusion]

For eons to come...

T-F, the conflict will continue for generations.
It won't be resolved in my lifetime, nor my son's or his son's.

In the meantime, Israel is a state run primarily by jews and the arabs don't like that reality. Never have, never will.
It is absolutely theological. Nothing whatsoever to do with "occupation" or "water rights" or "colonialism."
That's all smoke and mirrors.

Do you imagine that any amount of "military defeat" could cause Israelis to give up and leave, or accept second class citizenship in a foreign state??

Imagine it? You're kidding, right?
You can't be really sitting there at your computer with a straight face and telling us that you are unaware of the history of the jews?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Let's just look at one more recent aspect, and not even get involved with the entire Roman expulsion 2000 years ago and the (second) destruction of the center of jewish life on the temple mount in Jerusalem --------
http://members.core.com/~mikerose/history.html

• Among the first Jews to arrive in Poland (in 1097 or 1098) were those banished from Prague.
  In 1454 anti-Jewish riots flared up in Wroclaw and other Silesian cities. They were inspired by the papal envoy, the Franciscan friar John of Capistrano. Though his main aim was to instigate a popular rebellion against the Hussites, he also carried out a ruthless campaign against the Jews whom he accused of profaning the Christian religion. As a result of Capistrano's endeavors, Jews were banished from Lower Silesia.

Anyway, I'm sure you were kidding... please tell me so.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Plenty of parents raise drug users, tax dodgers, killers, wife beaters.

Selfiness is something inherent to humanity. Terrorism, however, is in a class entirely separate from general criminality. It requires indoctrination, and usually the parents are at least partly culpable.

The nature/nurture debate has never nailed down the specifics, but you can be certain that it is not just the parents who influence your decision making.

Quibble about the "specifics" all you want, but terrorism doesn't come naturally, so that pretty much settles the "nature/nurture" debate for me. No, the parents aren't always responsible, but aren't they a good place to start looking?

There are plenty of stories about Palestinian parents who had no idea their children were going to be suicide bombers. That's what you would expect, those who are convincing them to do so, the first thing they would say to their targets, don't tell anyone you know.

If a parent relies solely on voluntary disclosures to determine a child's activities, that's not a very good parent.

Does your parental irresponsibility principle apply to all parents of criminals?

Have you stopped beating your wife?

 

[The Fool]

Re: For eons to come...

Anyway, I'm sure you were kidding... please tell me so.

I am not "kidding" do you think any amount of military attack or hardship would see Israelis giving up on thier homeland and leaving?

I think its a silly proposition, I think many, many Israelis would fight until death and I don't think there is the forces stacked against them to achieve that result...so why would I think the Palestinians would be any different.

 

[The Fool]

Have you stopped beating your wife?

No...

I'm thinking of beating her Parents too....what do you think? would it help?

 

[Art Vandelay]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Where to put them?

Hatred is not anything to do with some nebulous "they are different" its because of what "they have done" on both sides.... I've never seen you try to suggest Israelis have a problem with palestinians simply because they are muslim.

Obviously, the history of the conflict is important, but the very formulation of what "they have done" requires a concept of "they", so it's rather unrealistic to claim that the conceptualization of Jews as being "different" has had nothing to do with the conflict. It's not really about what "they have done", it's about what "people we've lumped into the same category as them have done". If this were really about seeking justice, rather than genocidal hatred, Palestinians wouldn't be going around killing one set of Jews for what another set of Jews did.

I am not "kidding" do you think any amount of military attack or hardship would see Israelis giving up on thier homeland and leaving?

I think its a silly proposition, I think many, many Israelis would fight until death and I don't think there is the forces stacked against them to achieve that result...so why would I think the Palestinians would be any different.

I think that his point was that Israelis were conquered and exiled from their homeland, and they did live as second class citizen, so presenting it as a hypothetical doesn't make sense.

I'm thinking of beating her Parents too....what do you think? would it help?

Help what?

 

[The Fool]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where to put them?

Obviously, the history of the conflict is important, but the very formulation of what "they have done" requires a concept of "they", so it's rather unrealistic to claim that the conceptualization of Jews as being "different" has had nothing to do with the conflict. It's not really about what "they have done", it's about what "people we've lumped into the same category as them have done". If this were really about seeking justice, rather than genocidal hatred, Palestinians wouldn't be going around killing one set of Jews for what another set of Jews did.

I think that his point was that Israelis were conquered and exiled from their homeland, and they did live as second class citizen, so presenting it as a hypothetical doesn't make sense.

Help what?

I believe the Palestinians have a problem with Israelis and those the see as thier financial and military supporters, who are these different "sets of jews" you refer to?

 

[zenith-nadir]

Kassam barrages pound western Negev - Jul. 14, 2005

Rocket fire at Israeli targets was renewed last night throughout the western Negev, as consecutive barrages pounded towns and kibbutzim, raining over 40 Kassam rockets and mortars...

In response, the IDF divided the Gaza Strip into three security sectors by setting up checkpoints west of Netzarim in the north, and at Gush Katif Junction in the south. IAF helicopters struck Hamas targets throughout the Gaza Strip, in Jabalya, Khan Yunis and Deir al-Balah, while politicians and security sources promised that the recent barrages would not go unanswered, and emphasized that the tentative cease-fire that had been in effect since February was effectively over, as Al-Aksa Martyrs' Brigades and Hamas both took responsibility for the deadly rocket attacks.

Ceasefire IS OVER. The Palestinians had their chance and BLEW IT.

Additionally:

Abbas calls state of emergency in Gaza - Jul. 15, 2005

Two Palestinian youths have been killed and more than 16 people have been wounded in a fight between PA security forces and Hamas members in the Gaza Strip.

The stream of violence in Gaza has lead PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas to declare a state of emergency on Thursday night, after dozens of Hamas gunmen stormed two Palestinian police posts in the northern Gaza Strip, Israel Television reported. The assailants threw grenades and fired automatic weapons.

More Hamas action for you Cleon...


All I gotta say that if this is a real sceptics board then real sceptics would say that Hamas attacking the Palestinian Authority has nothing to do with Palestinian Nationalism. Islamic Jihad, Al-Aksa Martyrs' Brigades and Hamas attacking Israel during a ceasefire and completely against the wishes of the Palestinian Authority has nothing to do with Palestinian Nationalism. All that crap about Islamic Jihad, Al-Aksa Martyrs' Brigades and Hamas "fighting for Palestian Nationalism" is just that, CRAP. There's the proof.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where to put them?

I believe the Palestinians have a problem with Israelis and those the see as thier financial and military supporters, who are these different "sets of jews" you refer to?

I believe you actually believe Islamic Jihad, Al-Aksa Martyrs' Brigades and Hamas terrorizing Israel is resisting the occupation. If it is all about Palestinian nationalism why do these groups attack the very Palestinian Authority they are supposed to be fighting for??? If it is all about Palestinian nationalism why do these groups continue to attack Israel against the wishes of the Palestinian Authority - whom they are supposed to be fighting for???

Not only are you wrong the fool you bought the lie. The people allegedly fighting for Palestinian nationalism just attacked the Palestinian Authority. The people allegedly fighting for Palestinian nationalism keep attacking Israel against the wishes of the Palestinian Authority. How do you explain that?

Are you starting to realize that you've been hoodwinked the fool? Are you starting to realize that Islamic Jihad, Al-Aksa Martyrs' Brigades and Hamas are not fighting for Palestinian nationalism? Are you starting to realize that Islamic Jihad, Al-Aksa Martyrs' Brigades and Hamas DO NOT and SHOULD NOT represent the Palestinian people? Are you waking up yet?

 

[webfusion]

maybe not over yet...

Z-N, I have my doubts about the cease-fire being trashed even now, in light of the overwhelming restraint and good intent on the part of Israel, even in the face of an onslaught such as we are witnessing from the terrorists.

You see, Israel wants very much for Abbas to continue running the PA, even nominally. He is a technocrat of the first order. So, he is the guy to go with, so the entire Gaza demarcation can go ahead, so the 'road map' can be followed further.

=============================

Art Vandelay, you are correct, my references to T-F were made to illustrate that jews have endured many total military conquests throughout our millennia-long history, and for him to to ask "do I think any amount of military attack or hardship would see Israelis giving up on their homeland and leaving?" is a joke.

In fact, T-F himself acknowledges it is just a joke:
"I think its a silly proposition"

Even as recently as the 1991 Gulf War, Israelis en-masse left the country in the months of the SCUD attacks by Iraq. Throughout the Intfada 1987-1993 and 2000-2005, Israelis have left the country, as they are unable to stay and face the pervasive terror and economic hardship resulting from this war of attrition.

============================
Has anyone here heard of NATANZ?
That is the focus of Israel's attention next, and I think we'll see a few bunker-busters find their way to the site.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Re: maybe not over yet...

Z-N, I have my doubts about the cease-fire being trashed even now, in light of the overwhelming restraint and good intent on the part of Israel, even in the face of an onslaught such as we are witnessing from the terrorists.

Jihad chief: Truce conditions evaporated - July 15, 2005 - (UPI)

BEIRUT, Lebanon, Islamic Jihad chief Ramadan Shalah, whose group claimed the latest attack against Israel, said all conditions for an unofficial Mideast truce have evaporated.

He rejected the Palestinian Authority's criticism of his group's military wing, al-Quds Brigades, over the suicide attack on Natanya in which five Israelis were killed.

"The argument made by certain forces that the operation of Natanya obstructs Israel's withdrawal from Gaza is not true, because the pullout is not a donation from Israel, but was forced as a result of armed resistance actions," Shalah said. He said the Palestinians are exposed constantly to Israeli aggression and the Palestinian resistance is defending the people.

Straight from the islamofascists mouth. There never was a ceasefire in the eyes of the islamofascists, unless launching rockets, mortars and suicide bombers is a ceasefire.

Islamic Jihad chief Ramadan Shalah claims shooting Qassams and suicide bombing women shopping in Netanya is "defending the Palestinian people". Some posters claim this type of "defence" is "resistance" to the occupation and daily humiliation. They claim it's part of Palestinian Nationalism. Well that that is a lie, that is spin, always has been and always was.

 

[Mycroft]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Where to put them?

Hatred is not anything to do with some nebulous "they are different" its because of what "they have done" on both sides.... I've never seen you try to suggest Israelis have a problem with palestinians simply because they are muslim.

Except if you go back 120 years, "what they have done" is to be guilty of the crime of buying land and building communities while not being Arab/Muslim.

Later, they were guilty of not going away after being attacked while not being Arab/Muslim.

Still later they were guilty of not losing the genocidal war waged against the non-Arab/Muslims.

If you go back in time 100 years, before all the turmoil of the 20th century that could not have been predicted, the two world wars, the comming of the industrial age, the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, and Zionism was just a bunch of people who wanted to get away from the persecution in Europe and some of them wanted to experement with some new socialistic social models. The likely result of that, had they been just left alone, would have been a provence of the Ottoman Empire that had a large Jewish community. There is absolutely no reason why they could not have coexisted with the Arab population, except that elements of the Arab population found those strangers living among them offensive.

Echos of this xenophobia (very strong echos) can still be found today in the charters of Hamas and the PLO. You've read them, you've had the relevent portions pointed out to you, you know what they say. From their point of view, this conflict is a race war and always has been.

 

[Mycroft]

Re: Re: So, what's the point again?

webfusion, you seem like you have zero desire to discuss the issue remotely rationally and you're way more comfortable accusing people of "defending the terrorists" than any meaningful dialogue. Further, you seem willing to justify anything Israel does, no matter how heinous or how many innocent people get killed in the process.

How come everyone who disagrees with you "has zero desire to discuss the issue remotely rationally"?

Be honest:

How do you think the AL Aqsa Martyrs Brigade would react if Israel said, "Okay, you guys are maintaining the truce, so we'll maintain the truce with you. Hamas, on the other hand, isn't so it's open season on them."

Do you think AL Aqsa would agree to that? Or do you think they would call the truce off due to "Israeli aggression"?

Clearly the later.

These different Palestinian-Arab factions while being different also allow them the luxury of having their cake and eating it too. They can claim the benefits of a cease fire, while not observing it. In negotiations, group A can calim, "oh, we're being reasonable, but group B isn't. We will need more concessions, more aid, more weapons to increase our credibility with group B, then maybe we can bring them into line."

It's all about having it both ways. When it's convenient, they're separate groups. "Oh, you can't blame us for what that other group does!" then when it's convenient, they're the same, "If you attack them, you violate the cease fire with us!"

 

[zenith-nadir]

Ceasefire is DEFINITELY over.

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip Jul 15, 2005 — The Israeli military launched an airstrike Friday on a van carrying Hamas militants and a cache of homemade rockets in a Gaza City street, killing four people in what may be the most serious blow to a 5-month-old truce.


Notice "the most serious blow" wasn't a Palestinian suicide bombing of a shopping center and daily Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza? Welcome to the conflict in the Middle East.

 

[Art Vandelay]

I believe the Palestinians have a problem with Israelis and those the see as thier financial and military supporters, who are these different "sets of jews" you refer to?

When I talked about different sets of Jews, I was thinking that one could place different Israelis into different categories. What I forgot is that Israel is a monolithic whole, and if any Israeli is put into a category, every Israeli must be put in that category as well. Thanks for bringing my attention to my glaring error. Your contribution to this thread is... invaluable.

 

[webfusion]

Is an attack on HAMAS a violation of cease-fire?

Israel resumed its policy of pinpoint targeting of militants in the territories Friday, killing seven members of the Palestinian Islamic movement Hamas in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

OK, Islamic Jihad and HAMAS and other factions are mad because they are facing the wrath of the IDF in full-force, but in the main, the overall cease-fire will continue over the next month, after these current reprisals are over with. That's been the case in the past, and I see no reason for a total IDF assault on Gaza happening right now.

I am under the impression that Shaul Mofaz and Arik Sharon are not interested in going beyond a limited and specific action:

This type of extra-judical targeting of 'offenders' (as we should call them now) is a typical IDF reaction --- it has been going on since the administration of Ehud Barak. We can expect it to lead to a period of calm afterwards, as the Palestinians have to stop and regroup and lick their wounds. What are they gonna do? Their leaders are dead, their arms depots are blown up, the population is cut off from fuel supplies and under the travel restrictions it is virtually impossible to get to work anyway.

Welcome to Gaza, hot & oppressive, roiling and boiling under the blazing July sun. Powder keg.

============================

NATANZ, some 250km (150 miles) south of Tehran, was a closely-guarded secret until late 2002 when its existence was revealed by an Iranian exile group.
The site holds uranium enrichment facilities which, the US says, could be aimed at producing nuclear weapons.

Israel is readying a long-range IAF strike to incapacitate the facility, before the Russians can deliver a supply of radioactive material to the site.

Israel has recently negotiated a purchase of US-made GBU-28 Lockheed-Martin bunker-buster bombs for exactly this purpose of destroying NATANZ.

So, while the IAF is busy in action over the skies of Gaza and the West Bank, and keeping everyone distracted by the Apaches buzzing around and taking pot-shots at HAMAS, the Top Gun pilots in their f-15's are being readied for a 'surprise' mission deep beyond Tehran.

Summer 2005.
To be continued...

 

[zenith-nadir]

Mortar hits Neveh Dekalim, wounding 2

A day after an Israeli woman was killed by a Kassam rocket in Netiv Ha'asara, two Israeli girls were lightly wounded when a house in the settlement of Neveh Dekalim suffered a direct mortar shell hit Friday afternoon. In the attack on Neveh Dekalim, a four-year-old girl sustained wounds to the abdomen, and an 18-year-old girl was lightly wounded in the hand.

Over 30 mortar shells and 19 Kassam rockets were fired at Israeli targets inside the Gaza Strip and in the Western Negev between Thursday afternoon and Friday afternoon. In the Western Negev, a total of four Kassam rockets and at least four mortar shells landed Friday in several communities, causing damage to one building. Throughout Thursday evening and night, consecutive barrages pounded towns and kibbutzim in the Gaza Strip and Western Negev.

Both Hamas and Fatah's Al-Aksa Martyrs' Brigades took responsibility for the attacks.

Civil War Brewing in Gaza - Jul 15, '05

Islamic Jihad terror leaders Friday afternoon tried to negotiate between Hamas terrorists and the PA, and called on all groups "to aim for Israel and the PA."

An ensuing shootout between PA police forces and Hamas caused the death of two unarmed teenagers and left 16 injured, some of the seriously, according to the Al-Jazeera Arab news site.

Hamas demanded that the PA fire interior minister Nasser Youssef, who had ordered police to "prevent, by force if necessary, all firing of rockets and mortars" against Israeli targets.

Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri accused the PA of intentionally trying to stop Hamas from "defending the Palestinian people against Israel aggression."

We killed Palestinian teenagers and fought with Palestinian Authority police because they tried to stop us launching mortars and rockets at Israel during a ceasefire - in the name of defending the Palestinian people!!!


Insane huh?

 

[webfusion]

• Hamas said the Israeli air strikes in the West Bank and Gaza would "open the doors of hell" on Israel.

That certainly sounds like they are quite agitated.
What are they so upset about? What did they expect, under the circumstances? They are launching ballistic missiles at Israel, and then getting mad when the IDF stops them? Z-N, you have it right, the laughing dog is perfectly timed.

By the way, unconfirmed reports have two entire IDF armored divisions and engineering battalion massing to invade Gaza now. The IDF last week declared the entire Gaza Strip a closed military zone, and solid information is hard to obtain. However, to media observers, this looks like a huge operation is about to begin.

OK >>>> just as I'm typing this, Israel Radio has confirmed:

Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz on Friday evening ordered the Israel Defense Forces to prepare for a large-scale ground offensive in the Gaza Strip but told commanders they need to wait in readiness for the government to give the final order so the operation would get underway.