With a cease-fire like this, who needs war?

[webfusion]

Three

In the immediate aftermath of the Netanya atrocity, the reporting of the death toll by various news organizations was brought into this discussion.

The Israeli press is now confirming that THREE women died in the explosion. Just to set the record straight...

==============================

Regarding the issue of "going after the terrorists directly" :::

• Israeli Defense sources said Tuesday night that Israel will intensify the manhunt for the Jihad network in the West Bank, headed by Louis Sa'adi, of Atil, about 13 kilometers east of Netanya. Israel will also continue its targeted assassinations of Jihad leaders.

 

[Art Vandelay]

The London bombings were caused by British nationals, and Britian will deal with any remaining cell members through the proper law-enforcement and legal channels, rather than lauching a rocket into their neighborhood. There is a reason Israel is cautioned about their retaliation- they use tactics that cause innocent deaths. Britain will not destroy more innocents in retaliation for the innocents murdered in the bombings. But then, I'm an "apologist wimp" for pointing this out.

So is it your position that Israel intentionally targets civilians in retaliation for terrorist attacks, and that they should instead deal with terrorism by sending police officers into Palestian areas and arresting suspects?

 

[kimiko]

Do you seriously think that a bunch of retarded Muslims teens, nominaly British by documentation, carried out this using high explosives bought in the local supermarket, making it just another criminal act?

It would be nice to avoid using the word retarded as an insult. But yes, it was a criminal act. When the Oklahoma City bombing occured, the FBI handled it. Something can be terrorism and a criminal act at the same time.

Did I mention Israel? You have to bring that up as another knee-jerk apologist action, don't you?

I quoted ZNs post and your post which was a reply to his. His included Israel, comparing criticism of it to criticism of Britain. I don't know how that can be considered knee-jerk apologism.

You represent what I mean by wimps.

Personal attacks are distasteful and have nothing to do with the topic.

You will make any excuse not to take whatever actions might be necessary if it involves anything other than everyday domestic police action

Speculation. The FBI is a domestic intelligence and law enforcement agency and handles domestic terrorism capably. Britian no doubt has the equivalent capability.

; but of course you have your head in the sand and....., and you have already pointed out that this is so.

Personal attacks, again.

 

[kimiko]

So is it your position that Israel intentionally targets civilians in retaliation for terrorist attacks

They don't deliberately target them, but they do use military responses, like missile firings, that carry a high likelihood of civilians dying.

and that they should instead deal with terrorism by sending police officers into Palestian areas and arresting suspects?

They arrest people already. My comment was directed at ZN's comparison of criticism against Israeli reactions to terror vs. British. I was attempting to show how the comparison is not valid, since Britain doesn't use the type of military reactions Israel is criticized for.

 

[zenith-nadir]

The London bombings were caused by British nationals, and Britian will deal with any remaining cell members through the proper law-enforcement and legal channels, rather than lauching a rocket into their neighborhood.

There are no proper law-enforcement and legal channels with the Palestinian Authority Kimiko. This is a war that has been going on for decades and after ten years in power, several peace treaties and literally hundreds of promises by the leaders of the Palestinian Authority no one has ever been caught, arrested or tried for terror attacks upon Israel. So that job is left up to the Israelis. They have to catch, arrest and even kill these terrorists otherwise no one else on earth will do it.

There is a reason Israel is cautioned about their retaliation- they use tactics that cause innocent deaths.

Palestinian civilians die because the Palestinian Authority allows terror groups to use Palestinian civilians and civilian areas as shields from the IDF.

See the Palestinian gunmen? Who's crouching behind them?

See the Hamas rocket launcher? Who's standing around it?

See the Palestinian gunmen? Who's standing around them?

See the Palestinian militants? Is that a military base or a public street they are walking on?

See the Hamas gunmen? Who's walking behind them?

See the guy with the rocket launcher? Are those civilians walking behind him or soldiers?

See the guy holding the RPG and the other guy holding the Qassam rocket launcher? Who's behind them?

See the guy wating to fire the RPG? Who's sitting nearby?

See the guy with the RPG and the guy with the AK47? Isn't that an alley between peoples homes they are using for cover?


All those pictures prove 100% that Palestinian combatants are allowed to operate freely in Palestinian civilian areas. The Palestinian Authority is responsible for this, they allow combatants to use Palestinian civilians and their homes for cover and concealment. These combatants are not there to sell candy or wash your car, they are there to kill. Yet world opinion claims it is the Israelis who use tactics that cause innocent deaths.

Britain will not destroy more innocents in retaliation for the innocents murdered in the bombings. But then, I'm an "apologist wimp" for pointing this out.

I don't think you are an apologist wimp, I just think you have no idea what really goes on in Gaza and the West Bank. Most people don't.

 

[webfusion]

short memories

...since Britain doesn't use the type of military reactions Israel is criticized for.

Israel employs her military in self-defense, within a small geographic area that forms a contiguous demarcation of territories that are disputed as to their final status (Israel has legitimate claims to the territories in question).


Britain employed her military in 'self-defense' on an island near the coast of Argentina, halfway around the world, in a war that was anything but minor, and which caused considerable death and destruction to the local population.

(see: Falklands) http://www.naval-history.net/F33weekfive.htm

A lone Vulcan bomber piloted by RAF Flt Lt Withers on long-range bombing mission "Black Buck 1". Leaving Ascension late on Friday with eleven Victor tankers, some of which refuel each other, the first air-raid on Stanley is about to be made.

Regarding the deaths of civilians in war:
http://www.wcfia.harvard.edu/misc/publications/centerpieceSpring2003/feature_1.html
Weatherhead Center at Harvard Univ.
author: Alexander B. Downes
Noncombatants died in the greatest numbers in the twentieth century, but the practice of brutalizing civilians in wartime is, as Caleb Carr notes, "as old as warfare itself."

 

[webfusion]

Four

UPDATE:

In the Netanya Mall bombing, the toll has risen to four Israelis killed, as Anna Lifshitz, a 50-year-old Netanya resident, has died of her wounds.
The three other victims were Yulia Weltshin, 31, of Netanya, and Rachel Ben Abu and Nofar Horvitz, two 16-year-old girls from Tel Aviv.

Just to keep the record straight...

 

[Elind]

It would be nice to avoid using the word retarded as an insult.

This summarizes your pitiful position nicely. You defend the mass murderers first against insults, then against anything more than a criminal aberation.

Apologist personified is what you are, and I don't know how that can be said without it being an insult, from my perspective. But then again, since you agree that is your position, why are you insulted?

 

[kimiko]

This summarizes your pitiful position nicely. You defend the mass murderers first against insults, then against anything more than a criminal aberation.

Apologist personified is what you are, and I don't know how that can be said without it being an insult, from my perspective. But then again, since you agree that is your position, why are you insulted?

An entire post dedicated to the art of the ad hom?

edited to add: And I was defending retarded people from association with murderers.

 

[kimiko]

Re: short memories

Britain employed her military in 'self-defense' on an island near the coast of Argentina, halfway around the world, in a war that was anything but minor, and which caused considerable death and destruction to the local population.

Context.
Britain doesn't use military reactions to terror. Yet, anyway.

My comment was directed at ZN's comparison of criticism against Israeli reactions to terror vs. British. I was attempting to show how the comparison is not valid, since Britain doesn't use the type of military reactions Israel is criticized for.

bolding mine

 

[webfusion]

kimiko's daffynition

The British responded to the Argentinian's takeover of their little colonial island-state. The British actually considered the Argentine move as one more move in the ongoing "state-sponsored-terror" by the junta and the UK went ahead and mobilized their entire South Atlantic fleet for the task of defeating the invaders.

http://www.falklands-malvinas.com/emotionalactor.htm


Whatever,,, in the case of the London attacks, it would be really fascinating to watch the homes of these guys blown to smithereens. Just hoping....

 

[mr rosewater]

Whatever,,, in the case of the London attacks, it would be really fascinating to watch the homes of these guys blown to smithereens. Just hoping....

Me too, with their family inside.

 

[Elind]

edited to add: And I was defending retarded people from association with murderers.

Good grief! Political Correctness of course.

I should have thought of that.

We cannot insult the terrorists in case someone else who might be a genuine idiot, but not a terrorist, is offended.

Get real. Let's just ignore each other from now on.

 

[webfusion]

smithereens

No, mr rosewater, I have to say that the families should be sent a Royal Mail telegram informing them of the forthcoming home demolition. Of course, Royal Mail is probably just as slow as the US Mail, so this advance notice might be somewhat tardy in arriving... but then again, it would be more warning than was offered to the general public in the London tube.

ETA: (or in Netanya)

 

[zenith-nadir]

Gunmen beat Palestinian official - BBC - Tuesday, 12 July, 2005

A senior Palestinian official has been seriously injured in an assault by a gang of masked gunmen. Ibrahim Salama was driving in the West Bank city of Ramallah when gunmen fired at his car to force him to stop, an interior ministry statement said.

Mr Salama was severely beaten "with a sharp object" and taken to hospital.

Palestinian Kidnappers Free Aid Workers - AP - 13 July, 2005

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Two foreign aid workers were released Wednesday, less than 24 hours after being seized by masked gunmen in a refugee camp. The men had been working on a water development project in Gaza, when they were snatched from their car in the Bureij refugee camp in central Gaza overnight.

The kidnappers were a local gang using the hostages as bargaining chips to try to get some of its members released from prison, Palestinian officials said.

Sharon vows vengeance on bombers - BBC - Wednesday, 13 July, 2005

Israeli leader Ariel Sharon has ordered his forces to shatter a Palestinian militant group, after a suicide bomb killed four Israelis.

Islamic Jihad said it was behind Tuesday's bomb in the town of Netanya that upset a fragile four-month truce.

"I ordered the defence establishment to increase our activity and to do as much harm as possible to the leadership of the Islamic Jihad terror organisation," Mr Sharon said in a speech near Tel Aviv.

Israel arrests militants after suicide blast - CNN - July 13, 2005

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Israeli troops have arrested five members of Palestinian militant group Islamic Jihad in the West Bank city of Tulkarem after Tuesday's suicide attack in Netanya that killed four Israelis, an Israel Defense Forces spokesman said Wednesday.

Israeli troops closed off the West Bank and Gaza late Tuesday and went into Tulkarem in what was called a "pinpoint arrest activity against Islamic Jihad."

The IDF said two gunmen opened fire on Israeli troops as they entered the city and the soldiers returned fire and shot them.

See Kimiko, Israel is forced to do the Palestinian Authority's dirty work while under fire from Palestinian militants which the Palestinian Authority allows to roam freely- (see my posted images above).

 

[kimiko]

Good grief! Political Correctness of course.

Civil discourse.

I should have thought of that.

I agree.

We cannot insult the terrorists in case someone else who might be a genuine idiot, but not a terrorist, is offended.

Retarded people most likely do not read these forums. I have a younger sister with Downs and I try to counter the use of that word as an insult in an effort to replace ridicule with respect in the culture at large.

Get real. Let's just ignore each other from now on.

I don't have a problem, but do what you wish.

 

[zenith-nadir]

(AP) - A gunman shoots in the air during a concert by a popular Palestinian singer Amar Hassan in the West Bank city of Nablus in this July 5, 2005 file photo. It's been a hot summer on the Palestinian arts scene: gunmen broke up the concert of Hassan after he refused to limit his repertoire to political songs, and a Hamas-run town banned a music festival to prevent mingling of the sexes.

Picture here

Palestinian Poet Lashes Out at Militants - (AP) - Wednesday, July 13, 2005

It's been a hot summer on the Palestinian arts scene: gunmen broke up the concert of a popular West Bank singer after he refused to limit his repertoire to political songs, and a Hamas-run town banned a music festival to prevent mingling of the sexes.

Now, Palestinian national poet Mahmoud Darwish is striking back, saying fanatics have no right to deprive Palestinians of beauty in their lives. "There are Taliban-type elements in our society, and this is a very dangerous sign," Darwish told a gathering of artists and intellectuals this week.

It's not just an argument over artistic freedom, but over whether a future Palestinian state will be a theocracy or a pluralistic democracy.

Mohannad Ghneim, 30, an ambulance driver from Qalqiliya who had hoped to attend the concerts, said he fears Hamas will increasingly try to meddle in his life. "Today, they ban a concert. Tomorrow they might ban satellite TV," he said.

Is any of this sinking in Kimiko? It isn't about Palestinian Nationalism, Hamas and others want Israel gone and desire Talibanistan instead. Caught between Hamas, Islamic Jihad and others like them is Israel and Palestinian civilians.

 

[The Fool]

Re: smithereens

No, mr rosewater, I have to say that the families should be sent a Royal Mail telegram informing them of the forthcoming home demolition. Of course, Royal Mail is probably just as slow as the US Mail, so this advance notice might be somewhat tardy in arriving... but then again, it would be more warning than was offered to the general public in the London tube.

ETA: (or in Netanya)

Do you think your desire to injure innocent family members of the offenders is common in Britain? I was fairly sure that this attack would bring out people calling for the deaths of innocent people in revenge....I just wasn't expecting to see so much of it on this forum.

 

[Art Vandelay]

They don't deliberately target them, but they do use military responses, like missile firings, that carry a high likelihood of civilians dying.

Of course, doing nothing also carries a high likelihood of civilians dying. It seems to me that your wording implied that Israel the civilan deaths are part of the retaliation, rather than a consequence of it.

They arrest people already.

So does the fact that there are some cases in which an arrest is feasible show that it is feasible in all cases?

My comment was directed at ZN's comparison of criticism against Israeli reactions to terror vs. British. I was attempting to show how the comparison is not valid, since Britain doesn't use the type of military reactions Israel is criticized for.

First of all, you seem to be saying "Some of Israel's responses do deserve criticism, therefore it is legitimate to tell Israel not to have any response". Secondly, while the responses of Israel are different, the threat that it faces is also different.

 

[mr rosewater]

Not about revenge Fool, its about deterrence.