With a cease-fire like this, who needs war?

[webfusion]

have no fear

funny thing is the people actually there seem to think its holding fairly well...There has been some aggression on both sides, each blaming the other for starting it....I'm not sure what you see as your role in all this with all your efforts to talk the ceasefire down. Do you want to see an end to the cease fire and just get on with the fighting again...is that it ZN?

First of all, ZN is not directly engaged in any of the fighting.

I have been. For almost two decades.
My son will be, too. Of that, I have no false illusions.

When you talk of "some aggression" on both sides, this lends the impression to the casual reader that Israel's armed forces are making a concerted and organized effort to break the cease fire.

Which they are not.

IDF has been under fire from mortars, bombings, ballistic missiles, automatic weapons fire, and according to reports (as offered here in the forum), several suicide attacks have been attempted.

After several days of violence - in which Palestinian militants fired dozens of mortars at settlements and Israel resumed using missile strikes against militants - a tentative calm returned to the Gaza Strip two days ago.

Hamas stated that the cease fire "does not mean giving up the right to self-defense in the face of Israeli aggression."

Firing mortars at civilian settlements is "self-defense" ????? HAMAS are a bunch of cowards who prefer not to face the IDF in battle, because they know the outcome wouldn't be in doubt.

As with every other 'cease fire' that Israel has ever known, it is mainly honored in the breach. Only when things get totally out of hand does the IDF respond.

In any case, this is not a cease fire at the level of the 1949 Rhodes Armistice, whose ongoing and consistent violation by the Arabs resulted in the 6-Day-War.

This current cease-fire is more like a lull before the coming storm. The dark clouds are there for all to see.

 

[zenith-nadir]

You don't wonder why so many teenagers are volunteering? Why does a teenager want to end his life.

Most do not volunteer a_u_p. Most undergo a process of indoctrination by Palestinian islamist groups. The Palestinian islamist groups make the bombs, they plan the attacks and they often transport the suicide bombers to their targets. The Palestinian islamist groups also make a confession video of the bomber for PR purposes and take a photograph that will be reproduced and displayed through the West Bank and Gaza to honor the bomber. The Palestinian Islamists splash suicide bombers posters all over Gaza and the West Bank like we splash posters of celebrities and sports stars a_u_p.

Bombers are made to commit suicide a_u_p, they are not born to commit suicide.

Do you want to see an end to the cease fire and just get on with the fighting again...is that it ZN?

A ceasefire means just that... CEASEFIRE. Palestinians lobbing motars and rockets at civilians in soon-to-be-ethnically-cleansed...sorry,.. "evacuated" housing developments is not a ceasefire. Islamists militants - linked to the Palestinian Authority - marching in downtown Gaza with their weapons is not really folowing the terms of the ceasefire either the fool. Just an F.Y.I.

 

[Mycroft]

You don't wonder why so many teenagers are volunteering? Why does a teenager want to end his life. My tip is it's got nothing to do with virgins.

All the various forms of indoctrination and social conditioning the Palestinian Authority uses to create more militants and martyrs has been well documented and discussed in these forums. I see no reason to beat a dead horse.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by The Fool
funny thing is the people actually there seem to think its holding fairly well...

Part of my purpose in starting this thread is to point out the weird double standards applied to this conflict. Yes, many people actually seem to think the cease-fire is holding pretty well, which is an excellent indication of how warped perceptions are when applied to this conflict.

Originally posted by The Fool
Do you want to see an end to the cease fire and just get on with the fighting again...is that it ZN?

I think maybe Abbas needs more time to get his people behind his cease-fire. I think it's clear more work needs to be done on this phase of the peace process before moving on.

 

[The Fool]

Re: have no fear

This current cease-fire is more like a lull before the coming storm. The dark clouds are there for all to see.

so you do notice it is a "lull" The warmongers on this board that hate the cease fire like to avoid noticing the cease fire.

Web, I'm sure you are correct that the IDF has no secret plans to sabotage the ceasefire but people still get shot. People still retaliate and people still retaliate for the retaliations. I have also been shot at during a "cease fire" that, unfortunately, is one of lifes rich realities.


The shakespearean tragedy that I see is the absolute rabid attachment that the extremists on the Israeli side have to the occupation of the palestinians when this is the first thing that has to end if anything is to improve. Murderers will always be able to rationalise thier actions when they are a member of a repressed occupied people....every time you knock one over another will take thier place.

It seems thier attitude to the Palestinians is that of the famous Navy saying.....the floggings will continue until morale improves.

 

[a_unique_person]

All the various forms of indoctrination and social conditioning the Palestinian Authority uses to create more militants and martyrs has been well documented and discussed in these forums. I see no reason to beat a dead horse.

And you know this as a fact?

 

[a_unique_person]

Re: have no fear

First of all, ZN is not directly engaged in any of the fighting.

I have been. For almost two decades.
My son will be, too. Of that, I have no false illusions.

When you talk of "some aggression" on both sides, this lends the impression to the casual reader that Israel's armed forces are making a concerted and organized effort to break the cease fire.

Which they are not.

IDF has been under fire from mortars, bombings, ballistic missiles, automatic weapons fire, and according to reports (as offered here in the forum), several suicide attacks have been attempted.

Do you acknowledge that military occupation can be a violent act in itself. Asylum seekers in Australia are locked up in 'detention', which is basically a prison, while their claims are processed.

The psychological damage is apparently quite significant. The people are not shot, beaten (much), etc, but many are going nuts, and attempting suicide, families are beaking down etc.

From what I can tell of your involvement in the IDF, you are principled and would not commit crimes against the civilians, but, as Pirate Lad has found, not all troops share those princples. People can be humiliated, attacked, even shot and killed, for no valid reason. After 30 years of such treatment, the results are apparent, as far as I can tell. The people in the West Bank under Jordan's rule were not sending out suicide bombers against the Jordanese.

The pipe bomber referred to was just a teenager. It is easy to blame those who take advantage of a teenager, but you have to ask yourself too, why would a teenager offer his services to these people. That is what happens. They don't have to go around in press gangs, rounding up suicide bombers, these people will just walk in the front door offering to do the job.

One of the articles that I will always remember on this is this one.

http://www.bintjbeil.com/articles/en/011001_hedges.html

It was in Gaza, where I lived for weeks at a time during the seven years I spent in the Middle East, that I came to know the dark side of the Israeli Defense Force. During the first Palestinian uprising, begun in December 1987 and ended in 1993 with the Oslo peace accords, the army had little interest in crowd control. It fired live rounds at boys hurling rocks. And on a few occasions the Israeli soldiers, angered at the coverage, turned their weapons toward groups of photographers and cameramen. They shot rubber bullets into their legs—doing it with a self-congratulatory arrogance that came to define the occupation for me.

In Beit Agron I run into familiar Israeli press officials. They are efficient: our press cards are ready in minutes. They welcome me back. They ask about New York. They hand out cell-phone numbers and tell us to call if we need assistance. Joe and I get up to leave, but we are blocked at the door by a man in his early sixties wearing a gray leisure suit. His name is Yusuf Samir, and he is a reporter for the Israeli Arabic service. He tells us that he was kidnapped recently in the West Bank by Palestinian gunmen and held for several weeks.

"The Palestinians are animals," he says. "They are less than human. They are savage beasts. Israel is a land of love. People in Israel love one another. But the Palestinians do not love. They hate. They should be destroyed. We should put fire to them. We should take back Beit Jala, Bethlehem, take back all the land and get rid of them."

The Israeli press officers are beaming.

"He is a great man, a poet," one says as we leave. "He is a man of peace."

 

[zenith-nadir]

Re: Re: have no fear

The shakespearean tragedy that I see is the absolute rabid attachment that the extremists on the Israeli side have to the occupation of the palestinians when this is the first thing that has to end if anything is to improve.

This said with a straight face as Palestinian militants continue to fire missiles at civilians.

Originally posted by
a_unique_person
And you know this as a fact?

Come on a_u_p, even you know Hamas-run schools and islamist clerics extole the rewards of martyrdom throughout Gaza and the West Bank. Even you know Palestinian teenagers do not know how to make bomb vests let alone mix up the explosives with ball bearings and bolts. Even you know suicide bombers don't plaster hero-worship posters of themselves across Gaza and the West Bank after they have exploded... for that would be impossible.

Mycroft is not on some wild tangent when he states " the various forms of indoctrination and social conditioning the Palestinian Authority uses to create more militants and martyrs has been well documented".

 

[a_unique_person]

Re: Re: Re: have no fear

This said with a straight face as Palestinian militants continue to fire missiles at civilians.


Come on a_u_p, even you know Hamas-run schools and islamist clerics extole the rewards of martyrdom throughout Gaza and the West Bank. Even you know Palestinian teenagers do not know how to make bomb vests let alone mix up the explosives with ball bearings and bolts. Even you know suicide bombers don't plaster hero-worship posters of themselves across Gaza and the West Bank after they have exploded... for that would be impossible.

Mycroft is not on some wild tangent when he states " the various forms of indoctrination and social conditioning the Palestinian Authority uses to create more militants and martyrs has been well documented".

Just blaming one side is futile and self defeating. Read the Gaza Diary. He is a reporter, he doesn't pull any punches when it comes to reporting the faults on both sides.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Re: Re: have no fear

The people in the West Bank under Jordan's rule were not sending out suicide bombers against the Jordanese.

The Palestinians paid Jordan back for their benevolence by causing a civil war there, (see:Black September)....they tried to overthrow the Jordanian government, they assassinated the Jordanian Prime Minister in Cairo, they plotted to kidnap other Jordanian cabinet ministers and to hold them hostage, they caused great material destruction in Jordan. That is how the Palestinians under Arafat paid the Jordanians back for running the West Bank from 1948 to 1967. So your claim that "the people in the West Bank under Jordan's rule were not sending out suicide bombers against the Jordanese" is correct but completely devoid of the "Palestinians tried to take over Jordan, murdered thousands and caused a civil war there" part.

Just blaming one side is futile and self defeating. Read the Gaza Diary. He is a reporter, he doesn't pull any punches when it comes to reporting the faults on both sides.

This is where you and I differ. I don't have to read what some visitor/reporter writes in his diary-for-sale. I have family in Israel, I've been there. I know life for Palestinians sucks.

You, like many others, start the clock in 1967 when the occupation began. You see Palestinian violence as resistance to the occupation.

I, on the other hand, start my clock when the P-a-l-e-s-t-i-n-i-a-n Mufti of Jerusalem and President of the Supreme Muslim Council Amin al-Husayni started anti-jewish riots in the 20's and conspired with Hitler to wipe out the jews in the 30's & 40's. My clock has numbers representing when Hafez Assad and Nasser tried to destroy Israel several times over. My clock has numbers representing when Arafat and the PLO murdered jews from the Olympics in Munich to the airport in Rome to cruise ships in the Med to schools in Maalot. My clock has numbers representing when Arafat caused civil wars in Jordan, Lebanon and a war with Israel from Gaza and the West Bank.

My clock has numbers representing things that your clock is missing a_u_p....and that is why we differ so completely on our views as to why life sucks for the Palestinians.

 

[a_unique_person]

Re: Re: Re: have no fear

The Palestinians paid Jordan back for their benevolence by causing a civil war there, (see:Black September)....they tried to overthrow the Jordanian government, they assassinated the Jordanian Prime Minister in Cairo, they plotted to kidnap other Jordanian cabinet ministers and to hold them hostage, they caused great material destruction in Jordan. That is how the Palestinians under Arafat paid the Jordanians back for running the West Bank from 1948 to 1967. So your claim that "the people in the West Bank under Jordan's rule were not sending out suicide bombers against the Jordanese" is correct but completely devoid of the "Palestinians tried to take over Jordan, murdered thousands and caused a civil war there" part. This is where you and I differ. I don't have to read what some visitor/reporter writes in his diary-for-sale. I have family in Israel, I've been there. I know life for Palestinians sucks.

How did I know you were going to ignore the point. The acts however, seem at odds with the commonly made claim that the Palestinians have had no intent of creating their own state. They appear to not be blaming the Israelis for the lack of a State, but this is not mentioned either.

Life doesn't just 'suck'. Life is dehumanising and breaking down social structures, it appears to me. When this happens, and it has been observed many times before, the resulting behaviour is just blamed on the victime. For example, Australian aboriginials had just about the longest surviving society in history, till the white man turned up. Now they are in decay everywhere, and they are usually blamed for it. It seems absurd to me to say that a society that was functional for many hundreds, or in the case of
Australian Aboriginals, many thousands of years, is to blame for it's decay when it was not like that before.

You, like many others, start the clock in 1967 when the occupation began. You see Palestinian violence as resistance to the occupation.

I, on the other hand, start my clock when the P-a-l-e-s-t-i-n-i-a-n Mufti of Jerusalem and President of the Supreme Muslim Council Amin al-Husayni started anti-jewish riots in the 20's and conspired with Hitler to wipe out the jews in the 30's & 40's. My clock has numbers representing when Hafez Assad and Nasser tried to destroy Israel several times over. My clock has numbers representing when Arafat and the PLO murdered jews from the Olympics in Munich to the airport in Rome to cruise ships in the Med to schools in Maalot. My clock has numbers representing when Arafat caused civil wars in Jordan, Lebanon and a war with Israel from Gaza and the West Bank.

Well of course you do, because that suits you. You see only confirms your world view, and ignore the rest. You may correct me, but I don't know of any teenage suicide bombers before the occupation.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Re: Re: Re: Re: have no fear

How did I know you were going to ignore the point.

Actually I didn't ignore it, I showed what the Jordanians got after they tried to help the Palestinians. They got a civil war courtesy of the PLO, thousands dead and an assasinated Prime Minister.

You may correct me, but I don't know of any teenage suicide bombers before the occupation.

Suicide bombing was invented by Hizbollah when they sent a truck into the US Marine barracks in Lebanon. The islamists in Gaza and the West Bank evolved the idea by disguising men, women and children and sending them into soft civilian targets.

Life is dehumanising and breaking down social structures, it appears to me. When this happens, and it has been observed many times before, the resulting behaviour is just blamed on the victime.

Life has broken down for the Palestinians because for nearly 100 years they've only had two leaders, the first one was a racist cleric who started anti-jewish riots and ended up conspiring with Hitler to kill the jews. The other Palestinian leader began a 40-year losing guerilla war with Israel, stole billions in aid while he started civil wars between Jordanians and Palestinians then Lebanese and Palestinians.

If one takes all those decades of war, corruption, dictatorship, theocracy, terrorism and mayhem somehow a jewish settlement is minor in the 10 reasons why Palestinian society has broken down.

 

[a_unique_person]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: have no fear

Actually I didn't ignore it, I showed what the Jordanians got after they tried to help the Palestinians. They got a civil war courtesy of the PLO, thousands dead and an assasinated Prime Minister.Suicide bombing was invented by Hizbollah when they sent a truck into the US Marine barracks in Lebanon. The islamists in Gaza and the West Bank evolved the idea by disguising men, women and children and sending them into soft civilian targets.Life has broken down for the Palestinians because for nearly 100 years they've only had two leaders, the first one was a racist cleric who started anti-jewish riots and ended up conspiring with Hitler to kill the jews. The other Palestinian leader began a 40-year losing guerilla war with Israel, stole billions in aid while he started civil wars between Jordanians and Palestinians then Lebanese and Palestinians.

If one takes all those decades of war, corruption, dictatorship, theocracy, terrorism and mayhem somehow a jewish settlement is minor in the 10 reasons why Palestinian society has broken down.

"A Jewish Settlement"? Please.

 

[webfusion]

You may correct me, but I don't know of any teenage suicide bombers before the occupation.

The first teenage suicide bomber was in Afula during April 1994, killing 8 people.
That is over a quarter-century from the June 1967 events. How did the Palestinians manage to avoid suicide attacks during those 25 years and abruptly start with them?

What happened in 1994? Why did the Palestinians suddenly embark upon this new tactic? (and it must be remembered that regular random bombings against Israelis within their cities was a common method of Arab terrorists long before any "occupation" began)

What caused the suicide bombers to volunteer in that period of 1994? Was there a specific reason?
I am curious to know...

(It might be linked to the emerging Peace Treaty with Jordan which was eventually signed later that year, and the Palestinian rejectionists viewed the Israelis gaining political ground around the world)
http://www.caabu.org/press/documents/israel-jordan.html

 

[a_unique_person]

The first teenage suicide bomber was in Afula during April 1994, killing 8 people.
That is over a quarter-century from the June 1967 events. How did the Palestinians manage to avoid suicide attacks during those 25 years and abruptly start with them?

What happened in 1994? Why did the Palestinians suddenly embark upon this new tactic? (and it must be remembered that regular random bombings against Israelis within their cities was a common method of Arab terrorists long before any "occupation" began)

What caused the suicide bombers to volunteer in that period of 1994? Was there a specific reason?
I am curious to know...

(It might be linked to the emerging Peace Treaty with Jordan which was eventually signed later that year, and the Palestinian rejectionists viewed the Israelis gaining political ground around the world)
http://www.caabu.org/press/documents/israel-jordan.html

Is it anything to do with the period of time under occupation? That is, people who have grown up knowing nothing else but that.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Is it anything to do with the period of time under occupation? That is, people who have grown up knowing nothing else but that.

If that was the case then explain why Aboriginies have never suicide bombed Australians.

Suicide bombers suicide bomb because charismatic leaders like the ex-Sheik Yassin play on their fears and hopes using religious fervor. He'd promise the bomber a place reserved in paradise where they can 'start a new life', he'd promise them that they would cast terror and fear into the hearts of the enemy, he'd promise them that what they are doing is righteous. On the other hand Saddam and the Palestinian Authority used to give the bomber financial compensation for their families, now Hizbollah does that. Strong support for suicide bombers amongst the Palestinian population teaches bombers that what they are doing is not really suicide, but a socially acceptable "heroic martyrdom operation".

If the islamists chose the right person for the job and the indoctrination is done well, eventually one will willingly fly passenger jets into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon a_u_p. You aren't born a suicide bomber, you are indoctrinated into being a suicide bomber.

Syrian music star sings praise of suicide bombers - THE WASHINGTON TIMES

Syrian music star sings praise of suicide bombers

Singer Nour Mehana's latest album includes the song "Um El Shaheed," or "Mother of a Martyr,"....Mr. Mehana, widely known as the Syrian Wayne Newton, sings to the mother that her son's goals are heroic and she should be happy he is dead.

 

[Mycroft]

Re: Re: have no fear

Originally posted by The Fool
so you do notice it is a "lull" The warmongers on this board that hate the cease fire like to avoid noticing the cease fire.

Baiting ignored.

Originally posted by The Fool
Web, I'm sure you are correct that the IDF has no secret plans to sabotage the ceasefire but people still get shot. People still retaliate and people still retaliate for the retaliations. I have also been shot at during a "cease fire" that, unfortunately, is one of lifes rich realities.

The article I quoted said 15 teenage suicide-bombers or smugglers had been captured in the past two months. That suggests many more non-teenagers were also caught. When you add that to the constant shelling, the rocket attacks on the children...and it becomes obvious that one side doesn’t feel bound by this cease-fire.

I don’t want to trash the cease-fire as you claim I do (and dishonestly insist is what I want despite repeated statements otherwise) but I do want it solidified before moving on. If Abbas needs more time and resources to get the various factions and the population behind him, then he should have them. In the meantime, further withdrawals, concessions and talks can wait until this part of the process is accomplished.

Originally posted by The Fool
The shakespearean tragedy that I see is the absolute rabid attachment that the extremists on the Israeli side have to the occupation of the palestinians when this is the first thing that has to end if anything is to improve.

There was violence before Israel captured the territory, and violence from the Palestinian-Arabs increases whenever there is an agreement to turn over sovereignty to them. This evidence contradicts your assertion that the "occupation" must end for things to improve. You state your position on this often, but you never offer evidence to support it. Would you like to now?

Originally posted by The Fool
Murderers will always be able to rationalise thier actions when they are a member of a repressed occupied people....every time you knock one over another will take thier place.

Certainly, when so many social forces are at work creating new killers to replace the old. But so many of these social forces are artificial constructs created by Arafat and his cadre to keep the hate machine going. It can be dismantled, and should be.

Originally posted by The Fool
It seems thier attitude to the Palestinians is that of the famous Navy saying.....the floggings will continue until morale improves.

You’ve repeated this trite saying several times now, but morale isn’t improved by pretending there is no problem. Right now we have a problem in that many militants are not honoring the cease-fire, and that’s endangering the cease-fire. Further, the Palestinian-Authority has not taken decisive action against these militants, and has even resorted to the old Arafat trick of arresting some, only to allow them to "escape" later. This does not demonstrate good faith on their part, and progress cannot continue without it.

 

[webfusion]

Let's see some real research...

Is it anything to do with the period of time under occupation? That is, people who have grown up knowing nothing else but that.

What happened in 1994, specifically?
Why did the Palestinians decide to send people to die during that period, when they had not done so before (despite the occupation being in effect for over 25 years prior, and anti-Israel sentiment by the Arabs in Palestine being expressed with violence and killings of one sort or another for way long before that).

Was there a catalyst? ZN hints at some... I would like to see some evidence, if such exists. I'm sorry, I just don't have the opportunity this week to carry out the extensive websearches for the details, so I appeal to others to make this effort, if you're inclined. Thanks.

 

[a_unique_person]

If that was the case then explain why Aboriginies have never suicide bombed Australians.

The interesting thing is that suicide is a significant problem with aboriginals, as well as a high rate of self harm due to habits such as petrol sniffing.

The difference here, (that is, with the Palestinians), is that there appears to be a diversion such that if you're going to be suicidal, why not take someone with you while you are at it.

A person who places no value on their own life often ends up placing no value on anyone else's, either. If you want less Jews dying from suicide bombers, it is in Israel's interest to do their part in raising the self esteem of those under occupation. IMHO, ending the occupation would be a good start, YMMV.

 

[a_unique_person]

Let's see some real research...

Is it anything to do with the period of time under occupation? That is, people who have grown up knowing nothing else but that.

What happened in 1994, specifically?
Why did the Palestinians decide to send people to die during that period, when they had not done so before (despite the occupation being in effect for over 25 years prior, and anti-Israel sentiment by the Arabs in Palestine being expressed with violence and killings of one sort or another for way long before that).

Once again, sent or volunteered. There is a significance.